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Post by Lola m on Oct 23, 2009 22:31:34 GMT -5
Written by Tim Minear. Has that BSG guy in it. Lots of "Victor" -- what is that actor's name? I need to be able to say I knew him when Joss discovered him. Some trademark humor and quippiness: thanks Tim! But these are bad people. I was complaining about Glee not having a hero. These are people who work with bad people and allow them to get away with bad things and really don't seem all that concerned. What has happened to Boyd? They send the dolls out with creepy personalities and no back-up generator. Ballard just pulled the plug on that guy. Yes, he "deserved" it but is Joss endorsing vigilantism now? How does the Dollhouse get the police to show up and and rescue those women but ask no other questions? Aren't Echo's fingerprints on a number of crime scenes at this point? Or did Mr. Professor claim to have accidentally stabbed himself in the neck rather than admit that he had paid for a sexy co-ed fantasy. And, ew, just ew. Sorry, but Topher and Adelle are pimps. Grumble. I wanted to like DH. But ..... this episode, even though it was well written and did have some humor, was just off-putting; seriously off-putting with regard to higher moral issues. Maybe the point is that there is no higher morality in the DH, but then, let's start seeing the consequences. Too many loose ends and too much oogling. to all of that, and also - This hit me between the eyes last night: The people who run the Dollhouse are evil. The clients are, at best, pathetic, and at worst, also evil. The dolls, whatever their reasons for joining the Dollhouse, are minions of evil. There is no good here. Even Ballard, who was presented as a (very) flawed hero, has joined the dark side. We the viewers are voyeurs of all this questionable activity, and therefore, also evil. I don't like being made to feel evil, at least not this flavor of evil. Too chalky. Heee! Chalky. Well, I can understand if you and other are not enjoying the very murky ride. Now me, I am finding the season getting better and better the more ambiguous it gets. But, that's life, eh? Different strokes for different folks.
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Post by Lola m on Oct 23, 2009 22:38:05 GMT -5
Written by Tim Minear. Has that BSG guy in it. Lots of "Victor" -- what is that actor's name? I need to be able to say I knew him when Joss discovered him. Some trademark humor and quippiness: thanks Tim! But these are bad people. I was complaining about Glee not having a hero. These are people who work with bad people and allow them to get away with bad things and really don't seem all that concerned. What has happened to Boyd? They send the dolls out with creepy personalities and no back-up generator. Ballard just pulled the plug on that guy. Yes, he "deserved" it but is Joss endorsing vigilantism now? How does the Dollhouse get the police to show up and and rescue those women but ask no other questions? Aren't Echo's fingerprints on a number of crime scenes at this point? Or did Mr. Professor claim to have accidentally stabbed himself in the neck rather than admit that he had paid for a sexy co-ed fantasy. And, ew, just ew. Sorry, but Topher and Adelle are pimps. Grumble. I wanted to like DH. But ..... this episode, even though it was well written and did have some humor, was just off-putting; seriously off-putting with regard to higher moral issues. Maybe the point is that there is no higher morality in the DH, but then, let's start seeing the consequences. Too many loose ends and too much oogling. Topher and Adelle are pimps? agreed. I don't have a lot of time to post, but thoughts; Chaucer/Wife of Bath/use of feminine wiles - pimping one's sexuality for control - google of "la belle chose" leads to www.sex-lexis.com definition as Chaucer's term for "vagina". hmmm.... Terry is forcing his captives into roles - pimping? Yep, Joss, Minear & co. are telling us the dolls are being pimped, or everyone pimps/is pimped? Some version of "we could all be seen as having some complicity" I think, yes. I mean, every moment not devoted to ridding the world of badness could be seen as helping it exist. So, where do you begin? When do you get to stop? How much should each of us be doing? What badness would we do under what circumstances? **nods** And even with that, we get multiple layers. Some of the actives wanted their memories gone, taken. Or at least they thought they did. And can you really have known what you were agreeing to?
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Post by Lola m on Oct 23, 2009 22:39:00 GMT -5
Ugh. Joss has a way with the minds of creepy serial killers. Of course, he also has a way of getting them killed in satisfying ways. And is Amy Acker gone permanently? They keep mentioning Dr Saunders, so I'm hoping that room is being left for her to return in some way in the future.
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Post by Lola m on Oct 23, 2009 22:43:31 GMT -5
Not my own thought. (Ashamed to admit) it came from reading comments online at TVGuide. final two words of dialog in the episode, spoken by Echo as she stares at the broken body of the serial killer... his (Terry's) trademarked "Goodness gracious."Oh, I totally got that! Also, we've been seeing her remember more and more bits and pieces of former imprints. What I thought was particularly cool, though, is how they're showing her greater control over those pieces. Like when she was able to tell the woman to kill her because Terry was coming back. Serial kidnapper and possible/probable/definitely becoming serial killer.
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Post by Lola m on Oct 23, 2009 22:46:47 GMT -5
Written by Tim Minear. Has that BSG guy in it. Lots of "Victor" -- what is that actor's name? I need to be able to say I knew him when Joss discovered him. Yes! He's a much better actor than I originally thought. Kiki took Medieval Lit because she didn't think it would be as hard as the Advanced. Hee!! This I liked. I don't know if it's Boyd, or the actor, but he was really phoning it in. He endorsed vigilantism back when Giles killed Ben. It's the "he needed killin'" defense. I assumed those were Dollhouse operatives.Excellent point! Major ew. For me to like a show, it doesn't have to have a hero, or even especially be moral, but yes, there should be some consequences. Yes. I don't understand how Topher could tell when Victor was getting excited based on his biorhythms or whatever, but yet couldn't track him down. If he had a lock on his pulse, heart rate, etc., he has some connection to him, and therefore could pinpoint his location. That seemed like a plot hole. I also thought it was stupid that Topher took the time to call Boyd to tell him that they were going to to a re-boot of the system. Why would Boyd care? When has Topher ever taken the time to communicate with handlers about what he was doing back in the lab? I assume it was only done to move the plot forward so that Boyd would know that Kiki had turned into Terry. Lame. Also? Michael Hogan was totally wasted in this episode. His part could have been filled by anyone. I wouldn't watch this show if it was run by anyone other than Joss. OMG, so funny!**nods** Operatives or at least rented/controlled by the Rossum folks, I'm betting.
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Post by Lola m on Oct 23, 2009 22:48:31 GMT -5
Victor = Enver Gjokaj = Yum! I'm guessing the agent he was interacting with is the guy in the attic. And Terry hadn't killed anyone YET. And only because his family was able to get out of him the location of his kidnapees before he did manage it. This time he killed one and was then hit by a car before being discovered. Usually his family would pay the kidnapees off or extort from them in some way to keep them quiet. Since they were unable/unwilling to make sure he was receiving the help and care he needed to prevent this... I have fewer qualms than I would otherwise about his plug getting pulled. He would never have spent a day in jail, never spent a minute in any sort of therapy or received any sort of therapeutic drugs... Also makes me wonder about those women and what happened that day to make it something he dwells on sooo much. Enver Gjokaj so very very yum!
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Post by Lola m on Oct 23, 2009 22:49:19 GMT -5
And Mr. Gjokaj (pronounced Jo-kay) has a twin brother... Oooohh! Drool clean-up on aisle Lola! You know me so well! Twin sandwich - tasty!
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Post by Lola m on Oct 23, 2009 22:56:58 GMT -5
Oh. My. Gosh. It's a metaphor! Terry = The DollhouseDid you all already know this? I can hear you all laughing at me for being so dense. Um. Yeah, I thought it was kinda an obvious comparison. But I would never laugh at you! There's always lots of things in all sorts of shows that I miss and other people help me see and that always makes me all "ooh, cool, I'm so glad you said that", so I certainly can't judge anyone else. Um. Yeah. I thought it has been, well, pretty obvious too, that Minear and so on know exactly what's up, hasn't it?And it's meta to ask the question, but also to ask it deeply. Is it more complicit to learn about badness and then use that knowledge to work against it, or to ignore it and let it flourish more? [ETA: Or, you know, what Karen said more succinctly.] We have indeed seen how this will likely come to very very very not good. Well, you're struggling with the show, so you're probably mentally checking out and thus the missing. Would, you know, be my guess.
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Post by Lola m on Oct 23, 2009 23:01:37 GMT -5
So...no real comment yet on the Big Thoughts, except to say that the metaphor is so obvious as to be easily missed, yup. I missed it, too. But I do have one question, because I'm baffled by the strong reactions to this week's episode (which I thought was excellent). I thought it was very good as well. And real-life serial kidnap/kill type characters (rather than, say, vampires or other non-real villains) are not something I like or seek out. **nods** They have been exploring these questions all along. Can one really know what one is agreeing to? Can an adult choose to have their memories wiped and it be OK because it was their decision? Etc. etc. Dude. Security is horrible at this place! Much much agreement with this.
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Post by Lola m on Oct 23, 2009 23:03:08 GMT -5
And Mr. Gjokaj (pronounced Jo-kay) has a twin brother... Oooohh! That is interesting, considering that Joss hired a twin once before. And used the twin in an ep. **hopes**
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Post by Lola m on Oct 23, 2009 23:05:33 GMT -5
Yeah, I don't buy that Joss would write a story where the central meaning was that women create emasculated men who then feel the need to dominate women. I can't imagine him believing that - it's one of the antifeminist arguments that bug the crap out of me, actually. I don't think our "faith" in Joss is misplaced. He does mean to say something about human trafficking in its subtle AND gross forms, and he's not writing this just for the tittilation factor, IMO. It would be hard to write a story that showed the evils of the world without actually showing, well, the evils of the world. Yup. Kinda how I feel. Now, that doesn't mean anyone who can't/doesn't want to watch is wrong. For them. We all have our own ways of seeing and acting and so on.
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Post by Spaced Out Looney on Apr 29, 2013 12:58:45 GMT -5
Guy literally treating women (Dolls?) like Dolls. OK, so this guy is not a client. Just a relative of a Big Up Person. "*Topher* has ethical problems. *Topher*." BWAH HA HA!!! Wardrobe Guy... Is exactly who you'd expect Wardrobe Guy to be. Hee. Love this whole scene. "I won't even do this for my wife." "I was trained at Quantico." Ha! And the camera/Ballard oogling Echo is intensely disturbing, especially considering the fantasy she's been tasked to fulfill. Though I did like Ballard's "Oh, thank god" when he learns that he's been pulled off her detail for the night. I am wondering though, do straight guys' brains really fall out like that when the see a hot woman? I mean, I think I can appreciate a hot guy without completely losing all my other executive functions. Imprinting Victor with sociopathic serial killer's personality. How very Dark City of Them. And of course serial killer escapes yada yada yada. Ah ha, trying a remote wipe... Which of course went haywire. Hahaha...The actor playing Victor as Kiki. #rofl# I think he does a better job at it than Eliza.
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Post by Spaced Out Looney on Apr 29, 2013 13:16:18 GMT -5
And Mr. Gjokaj (pronounced Jo-kay) has a twin brother... Oooohh! Thanks for the pronunciation guide!
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Post by Spaced Out Looney on Apr 29, 2013 13:44:05 GMT -5
Oh, and of course Big Up Person is played by Michael Hogan. I knew he looked familiar. I can't believe I didn't place him myself. Fascinating discussion, y'all. I personally didn't find this episode that pivotal, just more of the same. What we do see that's interesting is a suggestion that Dolls are used by clients to satisfy urges that might otherwise prompt them to cross legal boundaries or violate social taboos. I could see the dollhouse staff using that, as well as the occasional philanthropic pro bono job (that one last season where Echo helped that sexually abused girl) to rationalize their jobs. However, serial killer story line serves as a reminder of how easily things get out of control. Plus as we see with Caroline and Madelaine, there's a strong implication that the Dollhouse exploits people in desperate circumstances into becoming Dolls, no matter how "freely" they sign their contracts.
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