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Post by SpringSummers on Sept 2, 2005 8:48:28 GMT -5
Another thing I wanted to point out: Riley blows up the vampires crypt with a grenade, supposedly killing them all. However, in Lullaby (?), Angel sets off a grenade to escape from Holtz and even though it goes off close to him (Angel), it does nothing more than blow him through the elevator door. It does not cause him to explode into tiny bits. So, if we aren't to conclude that this is an incidence of discontinuity, then Riley's blowing up the crypt was completely ineffective, and only served as a way of expressing his frustrations. My two cents: I think we are to conclude that army guy Riley has got himself a better grenade. (We've been no reason to believe vampire-flesh can withstand destructive force better than anyone else - just that they will heal faster, and won't die unless the destruction takes certain forms. At least, I can't think of anything. Knives, swords and such go through them just as easily as anyone else, etc.)
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Post by SpringSummers on Sept 2, 2005 8:56:51 GMT -5
So, to start things off, there is something I've always wondered about this episode that some one maybe be able to comment on... The Spike/Chinese Slayer fight and then the Spike/Dru sex takes place in a Buddhist temple. I think there's got to be symbolism there, because why not just place that scene in some random alley. But my knowledge of Buddhism is kind of slim, so what is being said here? Oddly enough, I just watched a Japanese film for class yesterday that depicted a rape taking place inside a Buddhist temple (in Japan, not China, but still). In our class discussion, we talked about the idea of the Buddha being forced to watch these events and the immense disrespect to the temple. The setting made the events more horrific. So some of the same ideas might apply to FFL as well, although 1) Spike was never much about religion, Angel was more the one to be "mocking God," and 2) the flashback is from Spike's perspective, and to him this was "the best night of his life." He killed the enemy and got the girl. A major triumph, not a travesty. I got nothing. I don't think it is about what Spike is thinking - he didn't deliberately choose the temple, I wouldn't say. And definitely, there was no "travesty" in his mind at the time. I think it's about putting the image into the viewer's head, not suggesting it was any part of Spike's intent. I think it is about giving us that image of absolute sacrilege, of profound violation, of unmitigated evil and chaos - all brought into the clearest relief by the goodness and peace and order represented by the surroundings. "Oh - did I scare ya?" In that scene in the temple, and then later in the subway, he scared me. Pure, ruthless evil just rolled off of him.
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Post by Onjel on Sept 2, 2005 9:06:31 GMT -5
Another thing I wanted to point out: Riley blows up the vampires crypt with a grenade, supposedly killing them all. However, in Lullaby (?), Angel sets off a grenade to escape from Holtz and even though it goes off close to him (Angel), it does nothing more than blow him through the elevator door. It does not cause him to explode into tiny bits. So, if we aren't to conclude that this is an incidence of discontinuity, then Riley's blowing up the crypt was completely ineffective, and only served as a way of expressing his frustrations. My two cents: I think we are to conclude that army guy Riley has got himself a better grenade. (We've been no reason to believe vampire-flesh can withstand destructive force better than anyone else - just that they will heal faster, and won't die unless the destruction takes certain forms. At least, I can't think of anything. Knives, swords and such go through them just as easily as anyone else, etc.) He might have counted on the fire from the explosion in confined quarters to incinerate them.
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Post by Lola m on Sept 2, 2005 12:16:23 GMT -5
Giles and Willow sure seemed to think that the Hellmouth made people want to build churches and so on. I wonder if Joss puts in those scenes because he knows it's likely to make his audience really see the contrast - that it will "get" to people? I also love how we get such a contrast in Spike's two battles with Slayers. One in the serene setting of a temple while a war rages outside. One on a rushing noisy subway in a big busy city, but in an empty car rushing through the night - no one else around so it's almost . . . serene. I just love the pictures that Joss makes. ;D Yes - the placement of the fight with the NY Slayer is perfect: Spike is making this part of his journey at high speed, through the darkness of the night, and underground. Absolutely wonderful. My favorite part of that whole absolutely perfect scene is the way the "subtext becomes text" and it literally intrudes into the present as SubwaySpike talks to Buffy, and then we're back in the alley, with present day Spike clapping his hands in her face. And the "Oh - did I scare ya?" So perfect. The writing, the directing, the actors in that scene on the subway and then in the alley - mesmerizing. "You know you wanna dance." "It wouldn't be you Spike, it would never be you." "You're beneath me." The scenes right after that with Harmony - Mercedes is wonderful in it - "Think, Spike!" and then, with Buffy talking to her mom about the tumor, so beautifully connected to what came before - "that nothing I've been dealing with? It might not be nothing." ("You're nothing to me William. You're beneath me.) "Every Slayer has a death wish." Death, showing up in person, in Joyce's backyard. Then the killer ending, where Spike brings comfort, not death. It's too much - I love this ep to pieces. I wrote pages about it, yet left out a million things, because it's endlessly complex - so beautifully done - the Riley parts blending in so perfectly as well. "Who's the man?" asks Dawn - and our guys in the ep, all trying to answer that question. Though for this ep, and in other contexts still to come, the answer is: Spike, baby. Spike's the man. (A short, annoying man). The entire episode is so stunningly well done that it is almost too hard to talk about it because there is so much to say! I have to keep picking small bits, individual moments. The editing of the fight in the subway and the fight with Buffy - the film's editing choreography - is some of the best I've ever seen. The way it seems to show Spike looking up at Buffy from Nikki's body. "Every slayer has a death wish . . . even you" **shiver** "And the second- the second- that happens..." (perfectly timed hand-clap, right in Buffy's face) "You know I'll be there. I'll slip in... have myself a real good day." That can still give me goosebumps. The moments with Joyce and then the final quiet awkward back patting on the back porch. Just. Man! I swear, someone should do like Ebert does every year with a film class and a classic movie. The watch it together, slowly, scene by scene and discuss and analyze it.
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Post by Lola m on Sept 2, 2005 12:18:22 GMT -5
My two cents: I think we are to conclude that army guy Riley has got himself a better grenade. (We've been no reason to believe vampire-flesh can withstand destructive force better than anyone else - just that they will heal faster, and won't die unless the destruction takes certain forms. At least, I can't think of anything. Knives, swords and such go through them just as easily as anyone else, etc.) He might have counted on the fire from the explosion in confined quarters to incinerate them. That's my thought as well. The explosion and fireball from it, contained by the stone walls of the crypt. He's figuring it will either tear them up into dust or the fire will do it.
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Post by Onjel on Sept 2, 2005 12:24:01 GMT -5
Yes - the placement of the fight with the NY Slayer is perfect: Spike is making this part of his journey at high speed, through the darkness of the night, and underground. Absolutely wonderful. My favorite part of that whole absolutely perfect scene is the way the "subtext becomes text" and it literally intrudes into the present as SubwaySpike talks to Buffy, and then we're back in the alley, with present day Spike clapping his hands in her face. And the "Oh - did I scare ya?" So perfect. The writing, the directing, the actors in that scene on the subway and then in the alley - mesmerizing. "You know you wanna dance." "It wouldn't be you Spike, it would never be you." "You're beneath me." The scenes right after that with Harmony - Mercedes is wonderful in it - "Think, Spike!" and then, with Buffy talking to her mom about the tumor, so beautifully connected to what came before - "that nothing I've been dealing with? It might not be nothing." ("You're nothing to me William. You're beneath me.) "Every Slayer has a death wish." Death, showing up in person, in Joyce's backyard. Then the killer ending, where Spike brings comfort, not death. It's too much - I love this ep to pieces. I wrote pages about it, yet left out a million things, because it's endlessly complex - so beautifully done - the Riley parts blending in so perfectly as well. "Who's the man?" asks Dawn - and our guys in the ep, all trying to answer that question. Though for this ep, and in other contexts still to come, the answer is: Spike, baby. Spike's the man. (A short, annoying man). The entire episode is so stunningly well done that it is almost too hard to talk about it because there is so much to say! I have to keep picking small bits, individual moments. The editing of the fight in the subway and the fight with Buffy - the film's editing choreography - is some of the best I've ever seen. The way it seems to show Spike looking up at Buffy from Nikki's body. "Every slayer has a death wish . . . even you" **shiver** "And the second- the second- that happens..." (perfectly timed hand-clap, right in Buffy's face) "You know I'll be there. I'll slip in... have myself a real good day." That can still give me goosebumps. The moments with Joyce and then the final quiet awkward back patting on the back porch. Just. Man! I swear, someone should do like Ebert does every year with a film class and a classic movie. The watch it together, slowly, scene by scene and discuss and analyze it. Ya think so? ;D You were way ahead of yourself here, Lola!
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Post by leftylady on Sept 13, 2007 16:21:27 GMT -5
I’ve been reading Paulo Coelho’s “By the River Piedra I Sat Down and Wept” and came across this:
‘”What are you thinking about?’ he asked me.
‘About vampires. Those creatures of the night, locked inside themselves, desperately seeking company.’
‘That’s why legend has it that only a stake through the heart can kill them; when that happens, the heart bursts, freeing the energy of love and destroying the evil.’”
I thought of our Fool For Love. Was it Spike’s continued ability to love Dru that allowed his love of Buffy – bursting his heart and eventually destroying his evil?
leftylady
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