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Post by beccaelizabeth on Apr 17, 2010 14:04:38 GMT -5
Winston Churchill calls the Doctor back to Earth to consult about the new technology. Winston calls them Ironsides. The Doctor knows them: Daleks.
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Post by beccaelizabeth on Apr 17, 2010 14:06:27 GMT -5
Spitfires in Space!
Amy the kissogram talking sexy-naughty saves the Earth!
And oh, Doctor... that's what it means to be human? You so need your humans to show you better. And, also hugs. This man really really really needs hugs.
I really love the bit where he was saving the world with a Jammie Dodger and some attitude.
I like the new rainbow Daleks. Though I have to admit the bronze Daleks, er, look better.
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Post by Lola m on May 1, 2010 21:47:35 GMT -5
WW II, it always comes back to that. Daleks as the British secret weapon? That’s new. Eeeep! Ooooh, and Amy doesn’t remember them . . . . so, a very Alt AU got started at the last big Master and the Time Lords smack down thingee, perhaps? Or from the last time that the Daleks fought the Doctor? Or . . . ? Eeeep! Definitely Daleks, then. Eeep! Why oh why does the Doctor keep leaving his companions behind while he heads off in the TARDIS? Doesn’t he know that they always end up being all helpful and stuff? Although of course she’ll end up being all useful back at London headquarters, eh? ;-) They’re M&M Daleks! In multi-colored candy coatings!  (And of course there’s the neat story twist of the Doctor being the one to “authenticate” them because they weren’t Dalek-y enough on their own.) Oh excellent idea, Amy! Get that machine guy to help – “you’re alien technology, you’re as clever as the Daleks are, well start thinking!” **claps** First act of the new Daleks is to disintegrate the old “inferior” Daleks. Of course.  Dogfight in space! Woot! (I mean, it makes no logical or technological sense at all, but still. Fun!) Ah, now the choice between getting rid of the Daleks forever or saving the Earth (and of course you can never get rid of the Daleks). Oh, excellent nice! Doctor wants him to remember painful stuff to be human and not blow up and Amy gets him to remember nice stuff. And that works better. Yay! The Daleks live (duh!) so that they can be in the next Dalek episode.  Hee! Mechanical scientist guy is all clueless and not getting that he should run, run run. |
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Post by Lola m on May 1, 2010 21:49:22 GMT -5
So. Awesome! **snicker** Also? Nice point! The new Daleks look all cheerful and stuff. Which I guess makes it odder when they start exterminating everyone. |
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Post by Riff on May 27, 2010 2:44:11 GMT -5
Spitfires in Space! Amy the kissogram talking sexy-naughty saves the Earth! And oh, Doctor... that's what it means to be human? You so need your humans to show you better. And, also hugs. This man really really really needs hugs. I really love the bit where he was saving the world with a Jammie Dodger and some attitude. I like the new rainbow Daleks. Though I have to admit the bronze Daleks, er, look better. The new colourful Daleks are obviously based on the ones in the two Peter Cushing Movies. The colours I like, but I'm still unsure about some of the other changes. In the design process, Moffat said children should want to go up to them and lick them, like the gingerbread house in Hansel and Gretal. |
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Post by Riff on May 27, 2010 3:07:11 GMT -5
WW II, it always comes back to that. Daleks as the British secret weapon? That’s new. Eeeep! Ooooh, and Amy doesn’t remember them . . . . so, a very Alt AU got started at the last big Master and the Time Lords smack down thingee, perhaps? Or from the last time that the Daleks fought the Doctor? Or . . . ? Eeeep! Definitely Daleks, then. Eeep! Why oh why does the Doctor keep leaving his companions behind while he heads off in the TARDIS? Doesn’t he know that they always end up being all helpful and stuff? Although of course she’ll end up being all useful back at London headquarters, eh? ;-) They’re M&M Daleks! In multi-colored candy coatings! (And of course there’s the neat story twist of the Doctor being the one to “authenticate” them because they weren’t Dalek-y enough on their own.) Oh excellent idea, Amy! Get that machine guy to help – “you’re alien technology, you’re as clever as the Daleks are, well start thinking!” **claps** First act of the new Daleks is to disintegrate the old “inferior” Daleks. Of course. Dogfight in space! Woot! (I mean, it makes no logical or technological sense at all, but still. Fun!) Ah, now the choice between getting rid of the Daleks forever or saving the Earth (and of course you can never get rid of the Daleks). Oh, excellent nice! Doctor wants him to remember painful stuff to be human and not blow up and Amy gets him to remember nice stuff. And that works better. Yay! The Daleks live (duh!) so that they can be in the next Dalek episode. Hee! Mechanical scientist guy is all clueless and not getting that he should run, run run. One thing I really do like about the new Daleks is their voices. THE EARTH WILL DIE, SCREAMING. As for Amy not remembering the Daleks, all those worldwide alien invasions during the last five years are a bit of a problem. It's bad in dramatic terms if everyone knows aliens, including Daleks and Cybermen, exist. It also distances the DW universe from our own. As Ten notes in The Next Doctor, it's a bit odd that a giant Cyberman stomping over Victorian London isn't remembered by anyone. This is referenced later in this season when, er, the season arc begins to be more apparent. In fact, there was some behind-the-scenes collaboration between RTD and Moffat on the writing of the specials. We know that RTD had to read one of the new scripts, but we don't yet know why. However, speaking of the End of Time, remember the two Time Lord dissenters who had their faces covered with their hands "like the weeping angels of old"? One of them was the mysterious woman who appears throughout the story. The other keeps his hands on his face. It looks exactly like Matt Smith. |
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Post by Riff on Jun 8, 2010 11:41:46 GMT -5
I feel I should point something out before I talk about the episode itself. Some will probably think that the episode is an outrageously inaccurate portrayal of Winston Churchill, and that the man was actually a monster. Churchill was a very complex individual and had a mix of liberalism and conservatism. He was, as is just to say suggested in the episode, a pragmatist who was prepared to make morally ambiguous decisions. Certainly no angel, but there are a great number of myths around him that are taken as historical truth by many (perhaps because they divert from the heroic myths, and so are assumed to be correct). This a grossly unfair way to portray the man. Here are just a few.
MYTH ONE:
Churchill shot miners/ordered miners shot.
This comes from the Edwardian Tonypandy riots, when Churchill was Home Secretary. After a wave of lootings and killings by rioting miners, Churchill did indeed authorise the use of armed troops to add extra numbers to the police - but with strict orders to not open fire on the miners under any circumstances. In the event, by the time the troops got there, the riots had petered out, and the miners and troops never met. Nonetheless, the myth of Tonypandy lives on, and many people swear it as a matter of gospel. Martin Gilbert's Churchill: A Life (Heinemann, London, 1991) is very clear on the actual facts, quoting from numerous memos.
This is actually a piece of propaganda that is given life by “socialist” (actually Marxist) groups. In some parts of South Wales and the North East, schoolchildren still are taught the old "Churchill shot miners" myth.
MYTH TWO:
Churchill was a hardliner during the General Strike
Actually, declassified documents made available to the public under the 30 Year Rule make it obvious that the reverse was true. The Prime Minister Stanley Baldwin was a hardliner in wanting the 1926 General Strike crushed, but knew that being seen in this light would harm his cuddly, paternal image, so he told strikers in negotiations that he was under pressure from Churchill. The truth, revealed through minutes from the time, was that Churchill as Chancellor of the Exchequer tried to negotiate "a very generous settlement with the unions, and came very close - it being vetoed by Baldwin" , according to Bob Boothby MP. Again, one of Martin Gilbert's books - Winston S. Churchill, Volume V: 1922-1939 (Heinemann, London, 1976) has a breathtakingly detailed amount of documentary evidence and correspondence which proves this.
No reputable historian has ever suggested Churchill tried to shoot anyone in 1926 - that story is a confusion of the blatant lie over Tonypandy with the General Strike myth.
MYTH THREE:
Churchill was a fascist/Nazi sympathiser
Unlike the case of Hitler - who Churchill saw the dangers of at least as early as 1934, and arguably in 1929 - it was not immediately apparent that Mussolini was any kind of a threat. In the wake of the October 1917 Russian Revolution, and amidst fears that revolution could spread across Europe, many international observers were at first relieved that Italy's notoriously unstable political system was seemingly less susceptible to revolution. You can blame Churchill for being short-sighted on what Mussolini's Italy would become within fifteen years, but you'd need to blame everyone the world over who drew this conclusion as well.
MYTH FOUR:
Churchill advocated the use of “poison gas” to quell “savage tribes”
This memo is often selectively quoted. If read in full it is actually a plea to use tear gas instead of the senseless bloodshed which was going on in the Middle East at the time. The idea that Churchill favoured genocide is particularly disgraceful.
MYTH FIVE:
Churchill was anti-Irish
As for Churchill and Ireland, it was Churchill who as Colonial Secretary in 1922 negotiated Irish partition and Eire's withdrawal from the UK; and he had been a staunch advocate of Irish Home Rule since the early 1900s. Irish nationalist leader Michael Collins sent a message about partition just days before his own murder in August 1922:“Tell Winston we could never have done it without him.”
The myth lives on that Churchill was anti-Irish. Nothing could be further from the truth.
MYTH SIX:
Churchill was a supporter of eugenics and therefore the far-right
We now rather arbitrarily associate eugenics with the political right because of its association with the Nazis - but throughout the latter 19th/early 20th century, it was usually socialist writers such as Pierre-Joseph Proudhon, Friedrich Engels, and even H.G. Wells who were extolling the virtues of selective breeding as a way of achieving a perfect socialist society and "breeding out" poverty. Feminist icon Marie Stopes, pioneer of modern contraception, was a staunch advocate of eugenics and even sent Hitler poems only a month before the start of the war. Incredibly, Hitler and the Nazis were very much influenced by the "socialist" part of national socialism in this respect - see most of chapters 4-7 of George Watson, The Lost Literature of Socialism (Lutterworth Press, Cambridge, 1998) for an exposition of this. Following the Holocaust, sane eugenicists quickly realised that the idea was a more than terrible mistake.
Intriguingly, in his youth Churchill did also express great interest in the idea of eugenics, c.1907 - but this was when he was a left-leaning Liberal, heavily influenced by left-wing writers such as Sidney & Beatrice Webb, and Seebohm Rowntree, and heartily denouncing his aristocratic cousins.
And so on. There is much about Churchill that is ambiguous, much that we would question from our perspective and moral criteria, but there are also a lot of conspiracy theories about him that (like conspiracy theories in general) are widely accepted but demonstrably untrue. So, his depiction in the episode is extremely favourable, but it not masking a monster, IMO.
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Post by Riff on Jun 8, 2010 12:09:48 GMT -5
I suspected that it was just some production thing, an experiment with the opening titles, but it seems I was wrong, because the DVD of the first three eps has come out, and it is the same as broadcast. What is? The lighting strikes. They get noticeably louder with each episode. I wonder if this has some relevance?
In the Doctor’s relationship with Churchill we see some of the war-leader’s pragmatism. Winston’s half-joking attempts to take the TARDIS from him are examples of this, as his inability to accept that the Daleks are dangerous, despite the fact that he knows the Doctor can be trusted. He says he will use, “Anything that will give us an advantage over the Nazi menace,” and states that “If Hitler invaded Hell, I would give a favourable reference to the Devil.” When the Doctor insists that the Daleks are totally hostile, Churchill’s only response is, “Precisely. They will win me the war.”
Normally, the Doctor wouldn’t be taking sides, but as we saw in the Moffat-scripted The Empty Child, World War II is one human conflict that he understands. And he admires all resistance to the Nazis. While all parties in the war had their own agendas and self-interest, these are tangential next to the Holocaust and the ideology behind it. Despite any positive social effects that the Nazis had in Germany (though not, of course, for people they didn’t like for whatever idiotic “reason”), they are, I would have to say, the nearest thing to evil that the human race has ever produced. The Allies really were fighting the forces of darkness. Churchill’s lone stance against the Nazis at this stage in the war seems to be what causes the Doctor to like him. His labelling of Churchill/Britain as a “beacon of hope” echoes the sentiments he expresses in The Empty Child.
The Daleks, of course, were always very obvious metaphors of the Nazis, born of liberally-minded writers who had lived through that time. Their utterly genocidal fear and hatred for everything, their constant cries of “EXTERMINATE”, aren’t terribly subtle. But here even their image and design adds to the effect. As “Ironsides” in this episode it becomes even more obvious just how much they belong in World War II. They somehow suggest the military technology of the era, and their domes strangely call to mind the head gear of combat soldiers at this time. But they’re on the wrong side! Why aren’t they flanking Hitler at the Chancellery? Of course they wouldn’t care about such things, and they are with Churchill because he is known to the Doctor and thus they can use him to spring a trap. They say they want to “win the war”, but as the Doctor points out, they don’t say which war. They are, in the end, referring to their own war of total genocide.
Initially the Doctor wonders why they pretend they don’t know who he is. For a reason that is never explained, they always recognise him. The Second Doctor’s very first story, The Power of the Daleks, shows that they know who he is immediately, when even his companions are still questioning if it’s really him. Indeed, this story is recalled by the line, “I AM YOUR SOLDIER” (in Power of the Daleks it’s “I AM YOUR SERVANT”). The follow-up, The Evil of the Daleks, is referenced in the Doctor’s words, “The final end.” These two tales are generally considered to be the finest Dalek stories, though only the soundtracks still exist.
Of course, the Daleks are goading him by pretending ignorance, making him give “testimony” to prove to the Progenitor Device that these genetically “inferior” survivors are indeed Daleks. And so we have “THE RESURRECTION OF THE MASTER RACE!” You see? Subtle.
The new Daleks (the design of which I’m still unsure of, though I like the colours) are not just colourful as a homage to the Peter Cushing movies, they are separate castes: scientist, strategist, drone, eternal and supreme. These roles all seem fairly clear, except… eternal? What can that mean? Time will presumably tell. These five say they will “RETURN TO THEIR OWN TIME AND BEGIN AGAIN”. The Doctor says that this is the future.
Amy Pond again plays a pivotal role in this ep. For some reason she does not remember the Daleks or indeed any of the events of The Stolen Earth/Journey‘s End. This might be unique to her, though later the Doctor, in Flesh and Stone, points out that no one remembers the Cyber King when thinking aloud about how time can be rewritten. Have those big RTD invasions of contemporary Earth been removed from history, then? Not only does she suggest that Bracewell’s ideas be used against the Daleks (ah, spitfires vs. a flying saucer, the best idea ever! - what do you mean you were never a seven-year-old boy? ;D), but she is able to draw out Bracewell’s humanity to defuse the bomb the Daleks intend to use. The scene is a little laboured, and the science fiction concept of I’m-not-real-these-are-fake-memories/selfhood is a bit old and tired, but her method is interesting. She nurtures a damaged man via a kind of benevolent flirtiness, something we see from her again later in the season.
One last point. At the start of the ep we learn that the TARDIS has arrived a month late. It may simply be an explanation of Churchill’s differing attitude between him asking for help and the Doctor’s arrival, but there may be more to it. And there’s that crack again.
K.B.O.
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Post by Queen E on Jun 11, 2010 0:25:00 GMT -5
Hmm. I'm not sure how I feel about this one. It felt a bit flat to me, possibly from overexposure to the Daleks and a revisit of WWII, particularly since it was done so brilliantly in "The Empty Child/The Doctor Dances." How is the Doctor not worried about crossing time streams, so to speak? How can he not be sure that he won't see Rose hanging from a zeppelin?
I know that sounds a bit silly, but since previously the whole "crossing into events" was made such a big deal of, it seems strange that it wasn't addressed.
And there was something I could finally read for the first time...a patch/disc thing on the TARDIS that said "St. John's Ambulance." What's that about?
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Post by Matthew on Jun 11, 2010 9:03:16 GMT -5
Hmm. I'm not sure how I feel about this one. It felt a bit flat to me, possibly from overexposure to the Daleks and a revisit of WWII, particularly since it was done so brilliantly in "The Empty Child/The Doctor Dances." How is the Doctor not worried about crossing time streams, so to speak? How can he not be sure that he won't see Rose hanging from a zeppelin? I know that sounds a bit silly, but since previously the whole "crossing into events" was made such a big deal of, it seems strange that it wasn't addressed. And there was something I could finally read for the first time...a patch/disc thing on the TARDIS that said "St. John's Ambulance." What's that about? The St. John's Ambulance disk is, iirc, something to indicate that you can call for medical assistance from this facility. Hartnel's Doctor's TARDIS had one on the door, too, but it appeared to be painted over. They were frequently seen on the police call boxes. You may also notice that the little glass windows are done in a pattern of clear and frosted that more accurately reflects the way the original police boxes were built. |
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Post by Riff on Jun 11, 2010 10:08:30 GMT -5
Hmm. I'm not sure how I feel about this one. It felt a bit flat to me, possibly from overexposure to the Daleks and a revisit of WWII, particularly since it was done so brilliantly in "The Empty Child/The Doctor Dances." How is the Doctor not worried about crossing time streams, so to speak? How can he not be sure that he won't see Rose hanging from a zeppelin? I know that sounds a bit silly, but since previously the whole "crossing into events" was made such a big deal of, it seems strange that it wasn't addressed. And there was something I could finally read for the first time...a patch/disc thing on the TARDIS that said "St. John's Ambulance." What's that about? Exactly what Matthew said. The St. John's Ambulance sign was on the first TARDIS prop in 1963, though it became less visible as the series progressed. However, it and the white frames on the windows were on the TARDIS in the two Peter Cushing Dalek movies, which Steven Moffat loves. This, presumably, is also why we have in-Technicolor Daleks in this ep. You're right, too. This is very widely regarded (as in by more than 90% of those who have expressed a preference) as the worst episode of the series. I agree. Churchill is rather one dimensional, everything seems rushed, and I don't much like the look of the new Daleks. Not Mark Gatiss's best work, I'm afraid. You may have noticed that my "review" deals a lot more with context than with the episode itself.  Never mind. A Moffat-scripted Weeping Angels two parter next! As for crossing into events, the Doctor has that Time Lord spider sense that tells him what he can mess with. I don't think the year is specified in the ep. We know the Empty Child/Doctor Dances takes place in 1941, but not the date. Since this episode is also in the Blitz, it can be any date from 7th September 1940 to 10th May 1941. I suppose we have to assume the stories are separated by time. |
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Post by beccaelizabeth on Jun 19, 2010 4:01:54 GMT -5
RE: Power/ Evil of the Daleks "These two tales are generally considered to be the finest Dalek stories, though only the soundtracks still exist." ... generally in that very specialist sense of 'by a minority of dedicated fanboys'. People who think stories you can't actually see are the best are a niche audience. Fangirls I know? Reckon the best Dalek story is the one with Ace and the baseball bat. This could be a selection effect because anyone that doesn't think Ace is best has clearly not seen her. |
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Post by Riff on Jun 19, 2010 7:41:11 GMT -5
RE: Power/ Evil of the Daleks "These two tales are generally considered to be the finest Dalek stories, though only the soundtracks still exist." ... generally in that very specialist sense of 'by a minority of dedicated fanboys'. People who think stories you can't actually see are the best are a niche audience. Fangirls I know? Reckon the best Dalek story is the one with Ace and the baseball bat. This could be a selection effect because anyone that doesn't think Ace is best has clearly not seen her. Ah, yes. Rememberance of the Daleks, aptly named in this case because many a fanboy has fond memories of Ace. I've met Sophie a couple of times and she has quite a twinkle in her eye. I think those two serials are celebrated because of the way the Daleks are written. They don't come across very well in a lot of stories, unfortunately. Although I though they were good in the Ecclestone season. |
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