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Post by Riff on Jun 5, 2010 11:50:06 GMT -5
Who is the Dream Lord?
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Post by Karen on Jun 5, 2010 21:53:28 GMT -5
He is?  Interesting episode. Why does the Dream Lord care which one Amy choses? And why does she need to chose? Can't she have both?  Ha! I was right. The Doctor was the Dream Lord. Cool. Oh...wait.  |
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Post by Riff on Jun 6, 2010 2:46:00 GMT -5
He is? Interesting episode. Why does the Dream Lord care which one Amy choses? And why does she need to chose? Can't she have both? Ha! I was right. The Doctor was the Dream Lord. Cool. Oh...wait. And I thought I was being so subtle.  All the Dream Lord presumably wanted was for a choice to be made, thus trapping them all in a dream. He (if he can really be thought of as a character) obviously enjoyed his mind games, though. Yet another emotional sadist! It was "Vincent and the Doctor" for us last night. Richard Curtis really came though with this one. I actually had tears in my eyes! Just beautiful. |
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Post by Riff on Jun 6, 2010 2:46:55 GMT -5
“So what do you do around here to stave off the, you know... self-harm?”
An ironic joke as it turns out, because self-harm is exactly what is going on in this episode. The final revelation that the Dream Lord is the Doctor (or, rather, an expression of his inner darkness, a Mr Hyde, if you will) is both shocking and oddly inevitable. Everything suddenly makes perfect sense, especially on a second viewing. Although the Doctor points out that he has 907 years worth of baggage for the psychic pollen to feed on, the concept of an inner voice that is a combination of one’s negative qualities and self-disgust is a common idea.
Part of the episode is a journey of discovery about the Doctor. This is not self-discovery – the Doctor realises who the Dream Lord is quite early in the story, and he reveals the truth in an almost offhand way at the end. Rather, it is us seeing the darkness within him (not a new development, for long-term fans). The episode’s other aspect is Amy choosing between the two extremes of life that most of us are caught between: excitement and contentment.
The Dream Lord is both the Doctor’s self-interest and the internal voice that makes him insecure about that self-interest. For example, the Doctor is a Time Lord, one of the elite (“Hello, peasants”). The fact is that, despite all the talk of the Doctor and companion being equal now, as if human sexual politics is an issue, they are separated by centuries, about a thousand IQ points, and the fact that he is from a civilisation many millions of years old. Moffat acknowledges this: “It’s anything but a relationship of equals.”
As the Ninth Doctor wasn’t shy about observing on occasion, we are “stupid apes” next to him.
Or as the rarely tactful First Doctor said, “I tell you that before your ancestors turned the first wheel, the people of my world had reduced movement through the farthest reaches of space to a game for children.”
And yet he usually treats us as equals. The Dream Lord is that voice inside, telling him that all he is really doing is being condescending, humouring the monkeys’ tea party. It emerges occasionally in the Doctor himself, like when he is impatient with both Rory and Amy for wanting some warm clothes. This, however, is just one of weapons the Dream Lord uses.
The Doctor seems to have some jealousy about Amy, but it is almost certainly not sexual jealousy. I’ll refer to Mr Moffat again: “He’s probably more interested in the relationship than in the physical expression of it. That’s not him, is it? He wouldn’t be like that. He would do all that, and I’m sure he has done all that, but he’s too decorous and too gentlemanly ever to make it the central fact of his being. That would be awful ... For me, the Doctor has all that stuff going on, but it’s not at the front of his life. He wants to explore the universe and have adventures; and he wants to meet people, and he falls in love with lots of people. He’s a serial falling-in-lover. He loves them all. It’s not the same thing as being lustful or libidinous. That’s not what he’s about.”
That is, however, what the Dream Lord is about, another example of his pure self-interest. We see this in several scenes, but most notably when he and Amy are alone in the TARDIS. Have some more Steven Moffat, on me: “But to say he doesn’t notice which ones are the girls and which girls are pretty... you haven’t been watching the same show I have, because he does. He likes them.” And so in the Dream Lord we have the Doctor’s sexuality stripped of the wholesome wish to unite with another self, seeing others as merely the objects of its goatish desires.
The Dream Lord plays on insecurities, insecurities about the Doctor’s respect for others and his respect for himself. And yet, without his inner darkness his better self would have no strength. Perhaps the Doctor ultimately uses the Dream Lord for good, just as he has always channelled his negative aspects into positive action. We’ll see.
Amy, then, isn’t really choosing between two romantic rivals (the Dream Lord constantly implies that she’s actually choosing between two sexual rivals); she’s choosing between conflicting desires of a different sort. There are two dreams, but three dreamers. Rory’s dream is of an idyllic if dull life, tranquil and settled domesticity. The Doctor’s is of the TARDIS falling toward a cold sun. It is significant that they both recognise this. The Doctor points out that the Leadworth dream is of Rory’s dream job, his dream wife and (probably) his dream baby. Rory’s appraisal of the TARDIS dream – a new type of star, fourteen minutes to live and only the Doctor can save everyone: “Oh, this is so you, isn’t it?” – is also to the point. Amy says both dreams feel equally real to her, because she is conflicted over the life she wants, but not, as it turns out, over the two men who represent each life. Because the fact is that, ultimately she loves Rory and not the Doctor. This is actually foreshadowed on several occasions throughout the episode, and becomes the big emotional payoff.
So, everyone is at the mercy of the psychic pollen and the monster that it draws out of the Doctor’s psyche. Or are they? The fact is that the Doctor realises early in the episode who the Dream Lord is. This dialogue seems to suggest that he has known what is going on for a long time.
The Doctor:
Star burning cold – do me a favour. The Dream Lord has no power over the real world. He was offering us a choice between two dreams.
Amy:
How do you know that?
The Doctor:
Because I know who he is.
Is it possible that the Doctor actually allowed this drama to be played out as part of his project, ever since the conclusion of Flesh and Stone, to ensure Amy and Rory are together and get married on the crucial day? Have we seen the last of the Dream Lord?
The one thing I can’t understand is why Amy’s unborn child didn’t factor in her decision (at least, not in a way the viewers were able to see). At the crucial moment, did Rory’s death absolutely convince her that the Leadworth story was a dream, it only being seen by her as potential suicide in retrospect?
But never mind such moral trivialities. Complete the Limerick! Roughly, it should be something like this:
There was an old man from Gallifrey
Who ended up throwing his life away
He let down his friends
And (blah blah blah) –ends
(blah blah blah blah blah blah blah) –ey
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Post by Karen on Jun 6, 2010 9:35:22 GMT -5
He is? Interesting episode. Why does the Dream Lord care which one Amy choses? And why does she need to chose? Can't she have both? Ha! I was right. The Doctor was the Dream Lord. Cool. Oh...wait. And I thought I was being so subtle. All the Dream Lord presumably wanted was for a choice to be made, thus trapping them all in a dream. He (if he can really be thought of as a character) obviously enjoyed his mind games, though. Yet another emotional sadist! It was "Vincent and the Doctor" for us last night. Richard Curtis really came though with this one. I actually had tears in my eyes! Just beautiful. Hehe...yeah, real subtle. If the Dream Lord was really The Doctor, why would he want them all to be trapped in a dream? I'm enjoying the new Doctor, but I got to tell you, it takes some time to get used to the new characters and the way they express themselves. Must be the accent. |
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Post by Karen on Jun 6, 2010 9:47:08 GMT -5
“So what do you do around here to stave off the, you know... self-harm?” An ironic joke as it turns out, because self-harm is exactly what is going on in this episode. The final revelation that the Dream Lord is the Doctor (or, rather, an expression of his inner darkness, a Mr Hyde, if you will) is both shocking and oddly inevitable. Everything suddenly makes perfect sense, especially on a second viewing. Although the Doctor points out that he has 907 years worth of baggage for the psychic pollen to feed on, the concept of an inner voice that is a combination of one’s negative qualities and self-disgust is a common idea. Part of the episode is a journey of discovery about the Doctor. This is not self-discovery – the Doctor realises who the Dream Lord is quite early in the story, and he reveals the truth in an almost offhand way at the end. Rather, it is us seeing the darkness within him (not a new development, for long-term fans). The episode’s other aspect is Amy choosing between the two extremes of life that most of us are caught between: excitement and contentment. The Dream Lord is both the Doctor’s self-interest and the internal voice that makes him insecure about that self-interest. For example, the Doctor is a Time Lord, one of the elite (“Hello, peasants”). The fact is that, despite all the talk of the Doctor and companion being equal now, as if human sexual politics is an issue, they are separated by centuries, about a thousand IQ points, and the fact that he is from a civilisation many millions of years old. Moffat acknowledges this: “It’s anything but a relationship of equals.” As the Ninth Doctor wasn’t shy about observing on occasion, we are “stupid apes” next to him. Or as the rarely tactful First Doctor said, “I tell you that before your ancestors turned the first wheel, the people of my world had reduced movement through the farthest reaches of space to a game for children.” And yet he usually treats us as equals. The Dream Lord is that voice inside, telling him that all he is really doing is being condescending, humouring the monkeys’ tea party. It emerges occasionally in the Doctor himself, like when he is impatient with both Rory and Amy for wanting some warm clothes. This, however, is just one of weapons the Dream Lord uses. The Doctor seems to have some jealousy about Amy, but it is almost certainly not sexual jealousy. I’ll refer to Mr Moffat again: “He’s probably more interested in the relationship than in the physical expression of it. That’s not him, is it? He wouldn’t be like that. He would do all that, and I’m sure he has done all that, but he’s too decorous and too gentlemanly ever to make it the central fact of his being. That would be awful ... For me, the Doctor has all that stuff going on, but it’s not at the front of his life. He wants to explore the universe and have adventures; and he wants to meet people, and he falls in love with lots of people. He’s a serial falling-in-lover. He loves them all. It’s not the same thing as being lustful or libidinous. That’s not what he’s about.” That is, however, what the Dream Lord is about, another example of his pure self-interest. We see this in several scenes, but most notably when he and Amy are alone in the TARDIS. Have some more Steven Moffat, on me: “But to say he doesn’t notice which ones are the girls and which girls are pretty... you haven’t been watching the same show I have, because he does. He likes them.” And so in the Dream Lord we have the Doctor’s sexuality stripped of the wholesome wish to unite with another self, seeing others as merely the objects of its goatish desires. The Dream Lord plays on insecurities, insecurities about the Doctor’s respect for others and his respect for himself. And yet, without his inner darkness his better self would have no strength. Perhaps the Doctor ultimately uses the Dream Lord for good, just as he has always channelled his negative aspects into positive action. We’ll see. Amy, then, isn’t really choosing between two romantic rivals (the Dream Lord constantly implies that she’s actually choosing between two sexual rivals); she’s choosing between conflicting desires of a different sort. There are two dreams, but three dreamers. Rory’s dream is of an idyllic if dull life, tranquil and settled domesticity. The Doctor’s is of the TARDIS falling toward a cold sun. It is significant that they both recognise this. The Doctor points out that the Leadworth dream is of Rory’s dream job, his dream wife and (probably) his dream baby. Rory’s appraisal of the TARDIS dream – a new type of star, fourteen minutes to live and only the Doctor can save everyone: “Oh, this is so you, isn’t it?” – is also to the point. Amy says both dreams feel equally real to her, because she is conflicted over the life she wants, but not, as it turns out, over the two men who represent each life. Because the fact is that, ultimately she loves Rory and not the Doctor. This is actually foreshadowed on several occasions throughout the episode, and becomes the big emotional payoff. So, everyone is at the mercy of the psychic pollen and the monster that it draws out of the Doctor’s psyche. Or are they? The fact is that the Doctor realises early in the episode who the Dream Lord is. This dialogue seems to suggest that he has known what is going on for a long time. The Doctor: Star burning cold – do me a favour. The Dream Lord has no power over the real world. He was offering us a choice between two dreams. Amy: How do you know that? The Doctor: Because I know who he is. Is it possible that the Doctor actually allowed this drama to be played out as part of his project, ever since the conclusion of Flesh and Stone, to ensure Amy and Rory are together and get married on the crucial day? Have we seen the last of the Dream Lord? The one thing I can’t understand is why Amy’s unborn child didn’t factor in her decision (at least, not in a way the viewers were able to see). At the crucial moment, did Rory’s death absolutely convince her that the Leadworth story was a dream, it only being seen by her as potential suicide in retrospect? But never mind such moral trivialities. Complete the Limerick! Roughly, it should be something like this: There was an old man from Gallifrey Who ended up throwing his life away He let down his friends And (blah blah blah) –ends (blah blah blah blah blah blah blah) –ey I am no good at poetry. But I can't wait to see what others come up with! Great summary of the episode! Any theories as to why The Doctor would use old (dead) humans as the villian in this one? The picture of them 'chasing' Amy, Rory and The Doctor is kind of hilarious and disturbing at the same time. |
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Post by Anne, Old S'cubie Cat on Jun 6, 2010 9:52:05 GMT -5
 Riff. Aside entirely from the fact that it's lovely to see you again, your analyses of Dr Who are adding greatly to my enjoyment of the show. We've managed to hook the Younger Daughter, who is now watching with us. Her favorite character is, of course, Amy. The fourth line of the limerick is obviously "And they all met bad ends". Pretty nasty, and, in my opinion, an indication of the Doctor's unexpressed feelings of responsibility for and guilt about the fates of his companions, his world and the entire damn universe. I have days like that... |
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Post by Riff on Jun 6, 2010 14:01:32 GMT -5
And I thought I was being so subtle. All the Dream Lord presumably wanted was for a choice to be made, thus trapping them all in a dream. He (if he can really be thought of as a character) obviously enjoyed his mind games, though. Yet another emotional sadist! It was "Vincent and the Doctor" for us last night. Richard Curtis really came though with this one. I actually had tears in my eyes! Just beautiful. Hehe...yeah, real subtle. If the Dream Lord was really The Doctor, why would he want them all to be trapped in a dream? I'm enjoying the new Doctor, but I got to tell you, it takes some time to get used to the new characters and the way they express themselves. Must be the accent. It's an unusual idea. The Dream Lord is the Doctor's darkness, but he has been created by the psychic pollen so that it can feed on the minds of our three friends. The psychic pollen is a "mind parasite". I suppose that, if they had remained in a dream state, it would have either drained all the thought-energy (or whatever it is supposed to be) from them, or continued until they died of thirst. Embrace the change, Karen! Embrace the change! ;D |
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Post by Riff on Jun 6, 2010 14:13:18 GMT -5
I am no good at poetry. But I can't wait to see what others come up with! Great summary of the episode! Any theories as to why The Doctor would use old (dead) humans as the villian in this one? The picture of them 'chasing' Amy, Rory and The Doctor is kind of hilarious and disturbing at the same time. LOL, yes. Apparently, elderly viewers were horrified by scenes of older people being hit with wooden beams and thrown off roofs, while the grandchildren thought it was hilarious. ;D The Leadworth dream seems to have been mostly drawn from Rory's imagination. It looks like being a country doctor, beloved by the old folk, was part of his ideal - then it all turned against him. Or, as a production decision, the reason may just be that kids are scared of old people. |
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Post by Riff on Jun 6, 2010 14:26:28 GMT -5
Riff. Aside entirely from the fact that it's lovely to see you again, your analyses of Dr Who are adding greatly to my enjoyment of the show. We've managed to hook the Younger Daughter, who is now watching with us. Her favorite character is, of course, Amy. The fourth line of the limerick is obviously "And they all met bad ends". Pretty nasty, and, in my opinion, an indication of the Doctor's unexpressed feelings of responsibility for and guilt about the fates of his companions, his world and the entire damn universe. I have days like that... Anne. Good to see you, too.  Fierce and bad now, I see. I suppose we all have days like that. Imagine 907 years worth! As Colin Baker (Doc no. 6) put it, when you consider everything he's experienced and all the death he's seen, it's no wonder he's a bit weird. The Time War does crank all that up to the nth degree. I suppose we have to ask if he is full of self-hatred all the time, or if the psychic pollen exaggerated that. I think Matt Smith is wonderful, chanelling all his predecessors. He sums up the Doctor's regret about Gallifrey next episode in two quiet words. Brilliant. |
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Post by Riff on Jun 6, 2010 14:30:36 GMT -5
Anyway, thanks to Anne's contribution, we have:
There was an old man from Gallifrey
Who ended up throwing his life away
He let down his friends
And they all met bad ends
(blah blah blah blah blah blah blah) -ey
Last line, anyone?
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Post by Anne, Old S'cubie Cat on Jun 6, 2010 17:11:47 GMT -5
I am no good at poetry. But I can't wait to see what others come up with! Great summary of the episode! Any theories as to why The Doctor would use old (dead) humans as the villian in this one? The picture of them 'chasing' Amy, Rory and The Doctor is kind of hilarious and disturbing at the same time. LOL, yes. Apparently, elderly viewers were horrified by scenes of older people being hit with wooden beams and thrown off roofs, while the grandchildren thought it was hilarious. ;D The Leadworth dream seems to have been mostly drawn from Rory's imagination. It looks like being a country doctor, beloved by the old folk, was part of his ideal - then it all turned against him. Or, as a production decision, the reason may just be that kids are scared of old people. Paul and I remarked that the elderly actors were probably having the time of their lives. |
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Post by Anne, Old S'cubie Cat on Jun 6, 2010 17:14:37 GMT -5
Riff. Aside entirely from the fact that it's lovely to see you again, your analyses of Dr Who are adding greatly to my enjoyment of the show. We've managed to hook the Younger Daughter, who is now watching with us. Her favorite character is, of course, Amy. The fourth line of the limerick is obviously "And they all met bad ends". Pretty nasty, and, in my opinion, an indication of the Doctor's unexpressed feelings of responsibility for and guilt about the fates of his companions, his world and the entire damn universe. I have days like that... Anne. Good to see you, too. Fierce and bad now, I see. I suppose we all have days like that. Imagine 907 years worth! As Colin Baker (Doc no. 6) put it, when you consider everything he's experienced and all the death he's seen, it's no wonder he's a bit weird. The Time War does crank all that up to the nth degree. I suppose we have to ask if he is full of self-hatred all the time, or if the psychic pollen exaggerated that. I think Matt Smith is wonderful, chanelling all his predecessors. He sums up the Doctor's regret about Gallifrey next episode in two quiet words. Brilliant. My guess is that the self-hatred and guilt are in the back of his mind at all times. The pollen just brought that to the fore. Yes, I am a Fierce Bad Anne, look at my claws, and my savage whiskers, and my turned up tail. I'm not into carrot-thievery, though, and any man with a gun is going to be in for a bit of a shock. |
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Post by Lola m on Jun 6, 2010 21:45:56 GMT -5
A pregnant Pond! Sweet! ;D This town is gonna turn out to be quiet . . . too quiet, eh? They all dreamed this, didn't they? The way she's touching her stomach . . . yep! They shared the dream! Only which is the dream and which is the real? "This is gonna be a tricky one." ;D Something is very hinky with the TARDIS! "You can't spot the dream while you're having it." Clever! "There's something here that doesn't make sense. Let's go poke it with a stick!" ;D It's the old people - they're in it up to their necks.  Tawdry quirk shop. HA! "Ask me what happens if you die in reality." "What happens?" "You die, stupid. That's why it's called reality." HA!!!! ;D "It can be the night before our wedding as long as we want it to be." "We have to grow up eventually." And thus the whole 'Doctor as Peter Pan' connection . . . always the one left behind to find another playmate. But still. Fun! Hmmm. Is it really dueling dreams? One that is the Doctor's and one that is Rory's dream? Are neither of them "real"? Are both of them "real"? And do they have to defeat the danger in both locations? Or perhaps neither location, and instead they have to discover a way to get out of both? Hmmmm. Only one person in the universe that hates him this much? Master, is that you? Or wait, if it was the Master, it's a mix of hate and love and all. Plus - too early in the season for it to be the Master. Heee! "Whack her!" So wonderfully ruthless. "Several hundred pensioners will destroy you with their eye-thingys." Heeeeee! Gotta love any show with that kind of line in it. Poncho boys! \o/ While it might be scary, splitting them between the two "dreams" is actually a good survival mechanism. Then there is someone awake in each to try and defeat the danger. Flee! Flee from the killer old people! Don't listen to dream guy, Amy. Kick his ass like you've kicked everyone elses ass! Dream guy taunting each, hitting their weak spots. Like the Doctor always moving on to another companion. Well, if he's turning into dusty stuff, I'd say that this is not the real world. If you can't save everyone, then what is the point of you? That seems a bit too much, eh? "If this is real life, I don't want it." Wake up in the freezy TARDIS, so yay! This is the real world. Which, duh, it had to be. All came from their imaginations - one of those "you are your own worst enemy" things, then. "I'm going to blow up the TARDIS." Ah ha!!! Both were dreams, then? And Dream guy wanted them to believe that one was real? Offering us a choice between two dream worlds! Ha! Oooooh! That's cool! He was the Dream Lord - the psychic pollen made all his dark worries and fears come out in the dream. Cool! "The darkness in you pair, it would have starved to death in an instant." ;D Fun ep - although I have to admit, the whole "choose between the two guys" thing is not the most compelling story arc for me. Or rather, it is compelling if I re-cast it as "choose between a more conventional life and one of adventuring". |
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Post by Lola m on Jun 6, 2010 21:47:46 GMT -5
He is? Interesting episode. Why does the Dream Lord care which one Amy choses? And why does she need to chose? Can't she have both? Yes!! This is always my response to these kind of dlilemna/question things! Yes, that last bit was a bit eeeepsome! |
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Fierce and bad now, I see.
