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Post by William the Bloody on Dec 30, 2003 3:54:52 GMT -5
Written by Jane Espenson
Directed by Michael Gershman
Air date: 4/24/01
While Buffy travels to the desert on a quest to find the Primitive, the gang back home encounters a very realistic Buffybot who seems to be in love with Spike.
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Post by Linda on Feb 22, 2004 2:47:37 GMT -5
To anyone who is interested ... and is not offended by a discussion referencing oral sex ...
There is a very interesting exchange of ideas regarding this episode in Part 120 (I think) of the Main Board:
What does Spike's treatment of the Buffybot show about Spike's character development up to that point in Season 5 as well as foreshadowing Season 6?
I believe that everyone agrees that Spike's initial treatment of the Buffybot is tender (and IMO sad more than creepy). Someone (Julia?) pointed out that it was a demonstration that, if it was up to Spike, Season Six's Spike & Buffy relationship would have been a LOT less violent.
There was, however, a difference of opinion about Spike's character in the later scene that showed Spike smoking while implied oral sex was taking place. There was some argument about how much evil this behavior reflected. As in degree of cruelty & objectifying.
This is my interpretation of what the scene says about Spike's character:
In the course of two or so days, Spike has begun to realize that the Buffybot isn't **real**. IMO, he is showing faster progress than Warren in this instance (not saying a lot, I grant you, but Warren **has** a soul). And since it is no longer real for him, the sex is not so engaging -- kinda boring, in fact.
To support this interpretation, I will point out that even before Buffy's reward & forgiveness at the end, Spike's reaction to the Buffybot's presence during the fight scene is **very** different from his reaction to the real Buffy's presence earlier in the same scene.
His subsequent indifference to the Buffybot and then the Season 6 avoidance, distaste & reluctant sadness are just more signposts of Spike's human progress (IMO).
So, no, I do not believe that Spike's smoking a cigarette during the implied **ahem** act shows him as more evil. I believe it actually shows some evolution toward becoming more human.
Feel free to argue with me.
Linda, who LOVED this episode, despite the initially creepy concept of a Buffybot sextoy -- how the hell does ME do that?
P.S. Favorite exchange (out of so many):
Buffybot: Anya! How is your money?
Anya: Fine! Thank you for asking!
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Post by SpringSummers on Feb 22, 2004 10:18:21 GMT -5
To anyone who is interested ... and is not offended by a discussion referencing oral sex ... There is a very interesting exchange of ideas regarding this episode in Part 120 (I think) of the Main Board: What does Spike's treatment of the Buffybot show about Spike's character development up to that point in Season 5 as well as foreshadowing Season 6? I believe that everyone agrees that Spike's initial treatment of the Buffybot is tender (and IMO sad more than creepy). Someone (Julia?) pointed out that it was a demonstration that, if it was up to Spike, Season Six's Spike & Buffy relationship would have been a LOT less violent. There was, however, a difference of opinion about Spike's character in the later scene that showed Spike smoking while implied oral sex was taking place. There was some argument about how much evil this behavior reflected. As in degree of cruelty & objectifying. This is my interpretation of what the scene says about Spike's character: In the course of two or so days, Spike has begun to realize that the Buffybot isn't **real**. IMO, he is showing faster progress than Warren in this instance (not saying a lot, I grant you, but Warren **has** a soul). And since it is no longer real for him, the sex is not so engaging -- kinda boring, in fact. To support this interpretation, I will point out that even before Buffy's reward & forgiveness at the end, Spike's reaction to the Buffybot's presence during the fight scene is **very** different from his reaction to the real Buffy's presence earlier in the same scene. His subsequent indifference to the Buffybot and then the Season 6 avoidance, distaste & reluctant sadness are just more signposts of Spike's human progress (IMO). So, no, I do not believe that Spike's smoking a cigarette during the implied **ahem** act shows him as more evil. I believe it actually shows some evolution toward becoming more human. Feel free to argue with me. Linda, who LOVED this episode, despite the initially creepy concept of a Buffybot sextoy -- how the hell does ME do that? P.S. Favorite exchange (out of so many): Buffybot: Anya! How is your money? Anya: Fine! Thank you for asking! Before others comment, I wanna say this - I felt very misunderstood on the main board, and I feel misunderstood here - so let me do my best to clear up what I am trying to say.
I did NOT mean to imply:1) I did not mean to imply that the smoking scene shows Spike as "more evil." It is far from a scene I would point to, to demonstrate remaining "vampiric evil" in Spike. 2) I don't think that two consenting adults pleasuring each other, any way they see fit, is a problem. 3) I understand that the 'bot is a machine, and that Spike is a soulless vampire. Right or wrong, I thought the topic for discussion "What does soulless Spike, the vampire's, treatment of Buffybot, the machine, tell us about soulless Spike, the vampire's, view of romance and women?" 4) I was not referring, in any way, to the evils of second-hand smoke or smoking in general. I would have felt the same way if Spike would have been shown eating a piece of pizza, or watching Passions or reading a magazine.
OK, here is what I DO think:1) Intervention gives us some idea of Spike's real feelings and interests when it comes to women and romance. 2) Through the tenderness in his scenes with the 'bot, we see that Spike is interested in sweet romance. We've seen this before, in scenes with Dru. This reinforces for us that the "sweet, concerned lover," is a very real part of Spike, not something he was doing totally or mostly because Dru wanted him to. 3) Through his smoking scene, we see that there is another side to Spike's feelings about women, and he also has a wide mysoginistic streak. We've seen this before, in scenes with Harmony. This reinforces for us that the "pig" is a very real part of Spike, not something he was doing totally or mostly because Harmony wanted him to.
prokryote: I would have to rewatch Intervention, but I did not have the idea that Spike had the Buffybot over several days. My memory is that it was all in one day. I just don't think it is legit to point to one part of Spike's actions and say "this shows us the real Spike, when it comes to women and romance," and then dismiss the other part. Warren's actions toward April WERE indicative of his feelings toward women and romance (even though he had had her for months, and was bored - what you choose to do when you've gotten bored is not dismissible for me). His actions pointed to his truly, deeply, evil and unmitigated mysongny (much, much worse than Spike's). But, in the same way, Spike's actions toward the Buffybot show us his real feeling toward women and romance. And mostly, we see a very sweet and insecure and needy guy, but with a noticeable streak of mysogny. |
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Post by Julia, wrought iron-y on Feb 22, 2004 11:49:44 GMT -5
Before others comment, I wanna say this - I felt very misunderstood on the main board, and I feel misunderstood here - so let me do my best to clear up what I am trying to say.
I did NOT mean to imply:1) I did not mean to imply that the smoking scene shows Spike as "more evil." It is far from a scene I would point to, to demonstrate remaining "vampiric evil" in Spike. 2) I don't think that two consenting adults pleasuring each other, any way they see fit, is a problem. 3) I understand that the 'bot is a machine, and that Spike is a soulless vampire. Right or wrong, I thought the topic for discussion "What does soulless Spike, the vampire's, treatment of Buffybot, the machine, tell us about soulless Spike, the vampire's, view of romance and women?" 4) I was not referring, in any way, to the evils of second-hand smoke or smoking in general. I would have felt the same way if Spike would have been shown eating a piece of pizza, or watching Passions or reading a magazine.
OK, here is what I DO think:1) Intervention gives us some idea of Spike's real feelings and interests when it comes to women and romance. 2) Through the tenderness in his scenes with the 'bot, we see that Spike is interested in sweet romance. We've seen this before, in scenes with Dru. This reinforces for us that the "sweet, concerned lover," is a very real part of Spike, not something he was doing totally or mostly because Dru wanted him to. 3) Through his smoking scene, we see that there is another side to Spike's feelings about women, and he also has a wide mysoginistic streak. We've seen this before, in scenes with Harmony. This reinforces for us that the "pig" is a very real part of Spike, not something he was doing totally or mostly because Harmony wanted him to.
prokryote: I would have to rewatch Intervention, but I did not have the idea that Spike had the Buffybot over several days. My memory is that it was all in one day. I just don't think it is legit to point to one part of Spike's actions and say "this shows us the real Spike, when it comes to women and romance," and then dismiss the other part. Warren's actions toward April WERE indicative of his feelings toward women and romance (even though he had had her for months, and was bored - what you choose to do when you've gotten bored is not dismissible for me). His actions pointed to his truly, deeply, evil and unmitigated mysongny (much, much worse than Spike's). But, in the same way, Spike's actions toward the Buffybot show us his real feeling toward women and romance. And mostly, we see a very sweet and insecure and needy guy, but with a noticeable streak of mysogny. Spring, I SO do not want to go over this again, as I know you are indurate in your position and I am not going to move you one inch, but just let me say this: In a long day of passion between new lovers, there are moments of piggishness on both parts. Sexual indulgence is not necessarily an enobling experience; at some points there is a degree of self-centeredness which verges on sociopathy. In my experience, which is not comprehensive but is various. My original point was to contrast the extreme violence and the sadomasochistic nature of Spuffy sex with Spike's actions with the Bot, most particularly in the light of the cut scene in "Smashed" involving Spike's preparation of his crypt, and our earlier discussion of the meaning of that scene and its place in canon. NOT to say Spike was all good and Buffy evil, nor that Spike's behavior in "Intervention" was somehow the peerless example of a lover toward his lady. Julia, beginning to be somewhat sorry I brought it up. |
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Post by SpringSummers on Feb 22, 2004 12:16:00 GMT -5
Spring, I SO do not want to go over this again, as I know you are indurate in your position and I am not going to move you one inch, but just let me say this: In a long day of passion between new lovers, there are moments of piggishness on both parts. Sexual indulgence is not necessarily an enobling experience; at some points there is a degree of self-centeredness which verges on sociopathy. In my experience, which is not comprehensive but is various. My original point was to contrast the extreme violence and the sadomasochistic nature of Spuffy sex with Spike's actions with the Bot, most particularly in the light of the cut scene in "Smashed" involving Spike's preparation of his crypt, and our earlier discussion of the meaning of that scene and its place in canon. NOT to say Spike was all good and Buffy evil, nor that Spike's behavior in "Intervention" was somehow the peerless example of a lover toward his lady. Julia, beginning to be somewhat sorry I brought it up. I've not been indurate in the least - just feeling very misunderstood and trying to make my position clear. The fact that you've pointed out that many new lovers display piggishness tells me I've yet to make my position on this clear. My point is not that Spike's behavior is out of the ordinary. My only point was that, IF you see Spike's actions toward the 'bot as indicative of his feelings toward romance and women, THEN, Intervention suggests Spike's duality on this issue, and supports the duality we've seen before. We see both the sweet lover that we saw with Dru, and we see the "pig" that we saw with Harmony. They are both Spike. That is all I am saying. |
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Post by Linda on Feb 22, 2004 18:27:24 GMT -5
Before others comment, I wanna say this - I felt very misunderstood on the main board, and I feel misunderstood here - so let me do my best to clear up what I am trying to say.
I did NOT mean to imply:1) I did not mean to imply that the smoking scene shows Spike as "more evil." It is far from a scene I would point to, to demonstrate remaining "vampiric evil" in Spike. 2) I don't think that two consenting adults pleasuring each other, any way they see fit, is a problem. 3) I understand that the 'bot is a machine, and that Spike is a soulless vampire. Right or wrong, I thought the topic for discussion "What does soulless Spike, the vampire's, treatment of Buffybot, the machine, tell us about soulless Spike, the vampire's, view of romance and women?" 4) I was not referring, in any way, to the evils of second-hand smoke or smoking in general. I would have felt the same way if Spike would have been shown eating a piece of pizza, or watching Passions or reading a magazine.
OK, here is what I DO think:1) Intervention gives us some idea of Spike's real feelings and interests when it comes to women and romance. 2) Through the tenderness in his scenes with the 'bot, we see that Spike is interested in sweet romance. We've seen this before, in scenes with Dru. This reinforces for us that the "sweet, concerned lover," is a very real part of Spike, not something he was doing totally or mostly because Dru wanted him to. 3) Through his smoking scene, we see that there is another side to Spike's feelings about women, and he also has a wide mysoginistic streak. We've seen this before, in scenes with Harmony. This reinforces for us that the "pig" is a very real part of Spike, not something he was doing totally or mostly because Harmony wanted him to.
prokryote: I would have to rewatch Intervention, but I did not have the idea that Spike had the Buffybot over several days. My memory is that it was all in one day. I just don't think it is legit to point to one part of Spike's actions and say "this shows us the real Spike, when it comes to women and romance," and then dismiss the other part. Warren's actions toward April WERE indicative of his feelings toward women and romance (even though he had had her for months, and was bored - what you choose to do when you've gotten bored is not dismissible for me). His actions pointed to his truly, deeply, evil and unmitigated mysongny (much, much worse than Spike's). But, in the same way, Spike's actions toward the Buffybot show us his real feeling toward women and romance. And mostly, we see a very sweet and insecure and needy guy, but with a noticeable streak of mysogny. Dear Spring, I apologize for not being organized enough to have brought everyone's original quotes over from the main thread. And I am so very sorry for framing the questions in a way that missed your points. I understand what you are saying about the way Spike treats women. And the misogyny thing, yep, I see it. But my misogyny squick point was actually at the end of "I Was Made to Love You" when Spike decided to have Buffybot built in the first place. It was hijacking Buffy's identity for his own selfish, twisted purpose. Turning Buffy into a Thing. Wrong. Scary for his character, IMO. At the beginning of "Intervention", the Buffybot was an exact mirror of Spike's wishful thinking. Unable to resist his cold, sinister attraction. Loving him. And he was sweet to the image. My interpretation of his human progress was this: he realized, much sooner than Warren, that such a mirror image wasn't enough, wasn't REAL. The sex without true (non-programmed) feeling wasn't what he wanted. So Spike's misogyny -- perhaps. If he still considered Buffybot to be a person. I don't know if he did. And if he didn't, perhaps it IS disturbing that Buffybot went from girlfriend to thing too quickly. I dunno. I just always thought of Buffybot as an adult's version of Mr. Gordo. (Sorry! I couldn't think of another Buffyverse item to compare her with!) Feel some affection for her, certainly. Very funny, I grant you. But, Turing test notwithstanding, she was not self-directed or capable of change from within. Not a person. Just there to illuminate the characters of others. And to say all the funny lines, which are actually funnier when I saw them as Spike's POV. The above is my opinion of Buffybot, not necessarily Spike's -- I admit it. And Spring, again, I am truly sorry to have made you feel misunderstood. Thank you for taking the time to spell out and clarify your thoughts. Linda, who will write things down more carefully and completely in the future...even if that involves actually straightening out her desk. P.S. Another favorite Buffybot line: Angel's lame. His hair sticks straight up and he's bloody stupid. |
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Post by SpringSummers on Feb 22, 2004 18:45:13 GMT -5
Dear Spring, I apologize for not being organized enough to have brought everyone's original quotes over from the main thread. And I am so very sorry for framing the questions in a way that missed your points. Golly. I was not offended and I appreciated that you brought the discussion over here. Didn't expect you to bring over original quotes, etc. And misunderstandings are common on boards, and I usually assume that I just haven't made myself as clear as I could/should (not that the other person isn't listening or is being rude, or whatever). I agree. Spike making the Buffybot in the first place is the biggest indicator of his duality when it comes to women (as opposed to the smoking while being serviced). Spike still speaks quite nicely to the "Buffybot" when she comes to visit him after the battle, and even when he tells her to hide (when Xander comes in and interrupts the . . . smoking). Warren didn't consider April to be a person, yet his cruelty in leaving her in the dorm room was one of many, many, indicators of his rampant mysogyny (thousands of times worse than Spike's). Harmony is a vampire like Spike, yet he treats her in that piggish way also. To me, it's part of one big picture for Spike - he can be incredibly sweet and loving, and he wants to be, but he also has issues (as Harmony said in AtS this year, upon learning what happened with Spike's mum: "That explains a lot." ) Don't worry yourself at all on this, Linda. Misunderstandings are to be expected on a board like this one, and I didn't mean to sound as if I was placing blame for those misunderstandings. It takes two to create a misunderstanding. So I was trying to do my part and clear up what I was saying. The Buffybot is hilarious and very sweet. She does come across as sentient and as having feelings, just as April did, so "slights" to her and "kindness" to her does (I think) reflect a person's actual way of dealing with others. Buffy is very kind to April in the end, etc. (Buffy, also the queen of duality). |
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Post by LadyDi on Mar 24, 2004 20:56:31 GMT -5
I still have trouble seeing Spike as a mysogynist. Maybe I'm (really) biased, but the term seems a bit strong. Did he take Harmony for granted? Of course. Could he be a pig at times? Sure. Still, doin' pretty good for a Soulless Evil Thing.
Buffybot's part of the progression. From the mannequin to the 'bot to the real deal. The progression mirrors the progression of Spike's feelings, from obession to genuine love.
Plus there's a striking contrast btwn Buffybot and April. April's just as generic as her name suggests. She has no interest outside of Warren. The 'bot recognizes Buffy's friends (and why would she need to, if she's just a toy?) and has Buffy's fighting ability.
I see the 'bot as the result of Spike's lack of a soul, more than any particular hatred of women on his part. It's even intimated that he *services* the 'bot in a particular way. He's playing pretend, but he can only pretend for so long.
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Post by SpringSummers on Mar 25, 2004 16:08:16 GMT -5
I still have trouble seeing Spike as a mysogynist. Maybe I'm (really) biased, but the term seems a bit strong. Did he take Harmony for granted? Of course. Could he be a pig at times? Sure. Still, doin' pretty good for a Soulless Evil Thing. Buffybot's part of the progression. From the mannequin to the 'bot to the real deal. The progression mirrors the progression of Spike's feelings, from obession to genuine love. Plus there's a striking contrast btwn Buffybot and April. April's just as generic as her name suggests. She has no interest outside of Warren. The 'bot recognizes Buffy's friends (and why would she need to, if she's just a toy?) and has Buffy's fighting ability. I see the 'bot as the result of Spike's lack of a soul, more than any particular hatred of women on his part. It's even intimated that he *services* the 'bot in a particular way. He's playing pretend, but he can only pretend for so long. I don't see Spike as a mysoginist either. I also think that is overstating it. He has this mysoginistic streak in him, that makes an appearance now and then. The suggestion, I think, is that it is due to his mommy-issues, and possibly some Dru issues too. I thought it was very telling the way Harmony, upon hearing about how his mother "tried to shag him," replied, "that explains a lot!" And I'll bet it did, to her in particular. |
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Post by Lynn on Apr 20, 2005 15:54:52 GMT -5
Spring, you reference a cut scene in "Smashed" involving Spike and his crypt. What was that about? I am guessing handcuffs.
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Post by Queen E on Apr 20, 2005 16:17:06 GMT -5
Spring, you reference a cut scene in "Smashed" involving Spike and his crypt. What was that about? I am guessing handcuffs. I can answer this one for you. In a deleted scene in Smashed, which was aired in parts of the UK and Australia, there is a scene between Spike leaving the nerd lair and Spike calling Buffy at the Magic Box, in which he returns to the crypt, sets out some handcuffs and other S & M type implements, puts rose petals over the bed, and puts on a Roxy Music record. If I'm remembering correctly. |
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Post by SpringSummers on Apr 20, 2005 22:35:03 GMT -5
Spring, you reference a cut scene in "Smashed" involving Spike and his crypt. What was that about? I am guessing handcuffs. When I did reference this scene? Not sure what you are referring to .. . was I responding to someone mentioning this scene? I do know they cut some kind of scene like that out of Smashed, but those cut scenes I think of as - pretty much useless for analysis purposes. All they tell us is what the vision was for a particular scene before they decided on what the final "canon" version should be. Interesting insight into - maybe - the writer of the ep, or some such thing, but zero insight into what ends up on the screen, for my purposes in the analysis . . . |
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Post by Onjel on Apr 21, 2005 7:29:27 GMT -5
I don't see Spike as a mysoginist either. I also think that is overstating it. He has this mysoginistic streak in him, that makes an appearance now and then. The suggestion, I think, is that it is due to his mommy-issues, and possibly some Dru issues too. I thought it was very telling the way Harmony, upon hearing about how his mother "tried to shag him," replied, "that explains a lot!" And I'll bet it did, to her in particular. This brings up a point that I wanted to address, even if briefly. Have to work , darn it all! If the demon is in control of Spike, like it appeared to be in control of his mother, Spike would not have been put out at all by a little incest. After all, soulless, evil thing, right? What that scene suggested to me is that there was more of William in Spike than was ever initially thought and perhaps more than was intended. Spike's dislike of torture in contrast to Angelus's love of the artistic kill. Spike wanted to eat and be done with it, perhaps as reward after a good brawl, but did not want to extend the victim's agony. Soulless and evil, or just being a natural predator? To me, Angelus was far more the image of soulless, evil thing. I'm just sayin.  |
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Post by Lola m on Apr 21, 2005 7:36:53 GMT -5
This brings up a point that I wanted to address, even if briefly. Have to work , darn it all! If the demon is in control of Spike, like it appeared to be in control of his mother, Spike would not have been put out at all by a little incest. After all, soulless, evil thing, right? What that scene suggested to me is that there was more of William in Spike than was ever initially thought and perhaps more than was intended. Spike's dislike of torture in contrast to Angelus's love of the artistic kill. Spike wanted to eat and be done with it, perhaps as reward after a good brawl, but did not want to extend the victim's agony. Soulless and evil, or just being a natural predator? To me, Angelus was far more the image of soulless, evil thing. I'm just sayin. Frankly, I've always wondered a bit about his mother too. I mean, it seems as it she was almost goading him to stake her and she definitely looked . . . glad that he did, just before she dusted. So . . . . Much, much William in Spike. Always there, up to the present, but he covered it over with his creation of "Spike" when he was hurt too much by Dru and Angel. (IMHO) Lola |
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Post by Onjel on Apr 21, 2005 7:40:56 GMT -5
Frankly, I've always wondered a bit about his mother too. I mean, it seems as it she was almost goading him to stake her and she definitely looked . . . glad that he did, just before she dusted. So . . . . Much, much William in Spike. Always there, up to the present, but he covered it over with his creation of "Spike" when he was hurt too much by Dru and Angel. (IMHO) Lola I totally agree. Although this discussion is probably one for a different thread, I always thought, ok well not until more of his inate character was revealed, that Spike's use of railroad spikes with his victims was because he was made to by Angelus and crew and the creation of Spike was part defense mechanism and part competition with Angelus. Assume the IMO. |
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