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Post by Lola m on Aug 18, 2005 7:31:08 GMT -5
You've hit on the essential thing, right there. For a lot of reasons, what we have is soulless Spike, constantly dealing with a completely repressed and denied desire to be good, in contrast with souled Angel, always struggling with a completely repressed and denied desire to be bad. Once you see that, their respective journeys start to make complete sense. And you can see where AtS Season 6 would have taken us, with Angel. Just as Spike finally faced up to his love for Buffy which led him to face his desire to be good, led him down the path to his soul, I think Angel would have finally faced his desire to return to Evil. He would have finally seen it, and owned it - and in doing so, would have finally - finally, at long last - found himself able to deal with it, to begin to take some control of it. He'd have learned how to anchor that soul. And Buffy in Tabula Rasa - she's so very, very protective of Spike. Which she actually always has been - though talk about repressed desires. Notice how the ep begins with Buffy telling Spike she's never, ever going to touch him again, then instinctively launching herself at him, and laying on top of him, all to protect him. They gravitate toward each other, and are very comfy with each other, but it's not about sex. It's about an affinity, it's about caring - she doesn't want to stake him; he doesn't want to bite her. Essentially, it's about love. How much do I love this? A wonderful, succinct description of the essence of Spike and Angel. In the style of our beloved Erin, Wordy McWord!!
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Post by Lola m on Aug 18, 2005 7:40:50 GMT -5
I really see it as just another way to highlight that this memory wipe is taking them back to their essential selves. Like, Buffy is in such a bad place about being brought back, but with that memory gone she still naturally takes a protective and leadership role. I just quickly jotted down my impressions of what each character is like when their memory is wiped and it seemed really revealing to me. Dawn: Concerned that someone will try to hurt her, argues with Buffy instinctively and just as instinctively realizes they are sisters and then is guided by her. Buffy: As I said, she's all "don’t worry" and helping the others and taking charge. But mostly we get to see how much she likes slaying! Xander: He's the most panic stricken at first, all "am I being tested on, am I getting paid" and "hey I exist" (all extremely interesting choices of words) but we all see classic Xander techniques. He uses humor to distract people, he is much braver than he or others admit (gets himself between the vamps and the others with his funny praying bit) and is also smarter than he or others notice (he's the first to say they're vampires and doesn't seem phased or surprised). Willow: She's interested and investigative wanting to figure stuff out (licences!), AND she's quick to get hostile if she thinks someone isn't looking at her in the right way. She's the first to "get" that it is a magic store. Tara: But Tara is the first one to say the word "magic". And she sounds the most sure, the most knowing about it. She says “a real magic shop”. Giles: He's being all "no big deal" stiff upper lip-y as well as scoffing at magic, until he realizes it's his store and then he acts all casual, like he knew it all along. Also interesting that one of his first explanations is "maybe we all got terribly drunk" - considering his own tendency to turn to the bottle. Anya: Her first words are just a perfect example of her usual logical thinking and literal phrasing: “I don't see any booze. I don't feel any head bumps. I don't see Allen Funt.” Spike: Oh, so snarky - oh so helpful - oh so brave (especially for someone who doesn't remember he's a vamp). And I think that's a very nice summary of Spike himself. ;D Very nicely put. I adore this epiosde because it has everything. Comedy and emotionalism all wrapped up in the classic "amnesia" episode. It is impossible to watch this and not sob buckets at the end. **nods** When it was first on and I had it on tape, I used to just play the final music-only montage over and over and over. **sigh** So good! So sad! Even the littlest moment . . . when Tara is leaving and Dawn just turns away from her on the porch. Oh! From that first scene when you see her (you think!) finally wake up to Tara is trying to tell her. Not just the magic, but the way she's using it on Tara - at Tara - I want to smack her. To go right from that moment to Willow blithely doing her spell anyway. You can just see that this will be the breaking point - she really didn't understand a word of what Tara was trying to say. Oh, I know! I can totally see them together after this! Bickering and fussing at each other and then shagging like bunnies, um, some highly-sexed rodent after. ;D I actually find the LoanShark demon and the running gag about kitten poker funny, but then I'm permanently in the 12 year old corner. ;D
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Post by Lola m on Aug 18, 2005 7:45:47 GMT -5
Two things that don't work (IMO): Sharky; Tara's distractingly bad hairdo (who put that effing squid on her head, anyway?). Otherwise, a wonderful ep., and much better at mixing comedy and pathos than TGiQ. One thing - Spring, you mentioned the connection btwn Buffy's martyr complex and her choice of the name Joan. While I wont deny it, I think there's more to it than that. There are a lot of times when Giles and/or the Scoobies didn't take Buffy seriously about some supernatural problem or other ( The Pack, Living Conditions). I submit that Buffy chose the name Joan b/c it's a simply a good, solid name. 'Joan' gets taken seriously, whereas 'Buffy' does not. I love the little dig at Angel ("...how lame is that?"), and Spike assuming he's one of the good guys. It's great to see them interact sans baggage (enjoy it while it lasts). Poor Buffy. Remembering is like going thru the trauma all over again. I always feel so badly for Buffy when the memory hits her. Because we see how happy she is as Joan the Vampire Slayer. Everything is so new and exiciting for her. "I don't know, but it was cool!!" "I must be some kind of superhero!" I like your idea that Joan is also picked because it's just . . . a good straightforward name. Plus, the memory coming back is staged so perfectly - her feelings causing her to not block a punch, so it's like the memory itself knocks her down.
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Post by Lola m on Aug 18, 2005 7:47:08 GMT -5
Man, I *loved* Tara's hair in this episode! Hee! Me too; I thought it was really cute. Me too. I've never had the skill to actually do that zigzag part thingee, but I like the look of it.
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Post by Sharky on Aug 18, 2005 8:56:28 GMT -5
Two things that don't work (IMO): Sharky; Tara's distractingly bad hairdo (who put that effing squid on her head, anyway?). Otherwise, a wonderful ep., and much better at mixing comedy and pathos than TGiQ. I resent that! Yeah, I find time to post now and then, but I'm also ..... Oh. Different Sharky. Nevermind.....
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Post by Pixi on Aug 18, 2005 9:42:32 GMT -5
Two things that don't work (IMO): Sharky; Tara's distractingly bad hairdo (who put that effing squid on her head, anyway?). Otherwise, a wonderful ep., and much better at mixing comedy and pathos than TGiQ. I resent that! Yeah, I find time to post now and then, but I'm also ..... Oh. Different Sharky. Nevermind..... Hee, hee. I actually thought of you when I read it first too. I call him Sharkhead myself to differentiate. I'm going to fall in the minority here and agree with LadyDi that I didn't like Tara's hair in this episode either. It is a very elaborate hairstyle and would be cute with different clothes but just didn't work in this scene for me either.
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Post by SpringSummers on Aug 18, 2005 9:55:24 GMT -5
Two things that don't work (IMO): Sharky; Tara's distractingly bad hairdo (who put that effing squid on her head, anyway?). Otherwise, a wonderful ep., and much better at mixing comedy and pathos than TGiQ. One thing - Spring, you mentioned the connection btwn Buffy's martyr complex and her choice of the name Joan. While I wont deny it, I think there's more to it than that. There are a lot of times when Giles and/or the Scoobies didn't take Buffy seriously about some supernatural problem or other ( The Pack, Living Conditions). I submit that Buffy chose the name Joan b/c it's a simply a good, solid name. 'Joan' gets taken seriously, whereas 'Buffy' does not. I love the little dig at Angel ("...how lame is that?"), and Spike assuming he's one of the good guys. It's great to see them interact sans baggage (enjoy it while it lasts). Poor Buffy. Remembering is like going thru the trauma all over again. I don't remember Tara's hair, which I guess suggests that I was neither impressed nor apalled. Joan is a good solid "normal" girl name, so that makes sense. But given what we see in this episode, and throughout Season 6, to me the "martyr" connection is deliberate and a definite. Notice how, free of her history of heartbreak and disappointment, Buffy loves her slaying (superpowers!) and Spike (Stay away from Randy!). But with her history, in "real life" she prefers to "feel the burden of Slayerness" (as Faith once said to Spike) and tell herself that she can never find true happiness in love (or true happiness, period) without Angel. She's closed up her heart - she believes she can never again love as well as she did at age 17 or so. Which is pretty sad. And she's believes her possibilities as far as other life choices, are totally limited by her Slayer burden. It's self-inflicted martyrdom, self-fulfilling prophecy. She's hanging on a cross, and she doesn't start to come off until the last ep of this Season, and then through Season 7. By the series finale, we hear specifically that Spike is "in her heart" (wow, that took some doing, breaking into that chamber, all locked, all shuttered and dank) and she has let go of the "I'm the one and only Slayer, I'm the Law" and of burdening herself with defining herself in that manner. That's the essential message underneath all the characters in BtVS - it's all about the power. If you tell yourself you're a victim of fate and circumstance, then you are. When you open your heart and mind to the possibilities, you free yourself.
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Post by Spaced Out Looney on Aug 18, 2005 10:08:48 GMT -5
**nods** When it was first on and I had it on tape, I used to just play the final music-only montage over and over and over. **sigh** So good! So sad! Even the littlest moment . . . when Tara is leaving and Dawn just turns away from her on the porch. Oh! Eetah! This is my most favorite montage in the entire series. What I also love is the look on Giles face when he's on the airplane; resigned, worried, exhausted. I've always definitely seen a vibe between Giles/Anya, as far back as Goodbye Iowa. Weird that ME never intended to go anywhere with it. I also find the LoanShark and kitten poker funny, so I guess I'm joining you in the 12 year old corner too.
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Post by SpringSummers on Aug 18, 2005 10:15:47 GMT -5
**nods** When it was first on and I had it on tape, I used to just play the final music-only montage over and over and over. **sigh** So good! So sad! Even the littlest moment . . . when Tara is leaving and Dawn just turns away from her on the porch. Oh! Eetah! This is my most favorite montage in the entire series. What I also love is the look on Giles face when he's on the airplane; resigned, worried, exhausted. I've always definitely seen a vibe between Giles/Anya, as far back as Goodbye Iowa. Weird that ME never intended to go anywhere with it. I also find the LoanShark and kitten poker funny, so I guess I'm joining you in the 12 year old corner too. I must join you in the 12yr old corner as well, in enjoying the Loan Shark and the kitten poker.
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Post by Michelle on Aug 18, 2005 12:46:31 GMT -5
Good golly, I have got to get to analyzing Season 6. It's such a great season. Oh Spring...don't TEASE us like that!! Fotada...waiting with bated breath
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Post by SpringSummers on Aug 18, 2005 13:28:16 GMT -5
Good golly, I have got to get to analyzing Season 6. It's such a great season. Oh Spring...don't TEASE us like that!! Fotada...waiting with bated breath I know, I know. It's been a crazy summer and I had to take a break. But I haven't forgotten. I very much want to get back to it. Thanks for the encouragement.
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Post by S'ewing S'cubie on Aug 18, 2005 18:15:16 GMT -5
Man, I *loved* Tara's hair in this episode! Hee! Me too; I thought it was really cute. I thought it was awful to the point of embarrassing. She looked foolish. You couldn't take someone wearing that silly style seriously and the scene was meant to be a tearjerker. It was utterly and completely wrong for the terrible trauma of the breakup.
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Post by LadyDi on Aug 18, 2005 21:11:42 GMT -5
Two things that don't work (IMO): Sharky; Tara's distractingly bad hairdo (who put that effing squid on her head, anyway?). Otherwise, a wonderful ep., and much better at mixing comedy and pathos than TGiQ. One thing - Spring, you mentioned the connection btwn Buffy's martyr complex and her choice of the name Joan. While I wont deny it, I think there's more to it than that. There are a lot of times when Giles and/or the Scoobies didn't take Buffy seriously about some supernatural problem or other ( The Pack, Living Conditions). I submit that Buffy chose the name Joan b/c it's a simply a good, solid name. 'Joan' gets taken seriously, whereas 'Buffy' does not. I love the little dig at Angel ("...how lame is that?"), and Spike assuming he's one of the good guys. It's great to see them interact sans baggage (enjoy it while it lasts). Poor Buffy. Remembering is like going thru the trauma all over again. I don't remember Tara's hair, which I guess suggests that I was neither impressed nor apalled. Joan is a good solid "normal" girl name, so that makes sense. But given what we see in this episode, and throughout Season 6, to me the "martyr" connection is deliberate and a definite. Notice how, free of her history of heartbreak and disappointment, Buffy loves her slaying (superpowers!) and Spike (Stay away from Randy!). But with her history, in "real life" she prefers to "feel the burden of Slayerness" (as Faith once said to Spike) and tell herself that she can never find true happiness in love (or true happiness, period) without Angel. She's closed up her heart - she believes she can never again love as well as she did at age 17 or so. Which is pretty sad. And she's believes her possibilities as far as other life choices, are totally limited by her Slayer burden. It's self-inflicted martyrdom, self-fulfilling prophecy. She's hanging on a cross, and she doesn't start to come off until the last ep of this Season, and then through Season 7. By the series finale, we hear specifically that Spike is "in her heart" (wow, that took some doing, breaking into that chamber, all locked, all shuttered and dank) and she has let go of the "I'm the one and only Slayer, I'm the Law" and of burdening herself with defining herself in that manner. That's the essential message underneath all the characters in BtVS - it's all about the power. If you tell yourself you're a victim of fate and circumstance, then you are. When you open your heart and mind to the possibilities, you free yourself. Hey, remember, I said I wouldn't deny the martyr thing. It's really too sad. Buffy wasted so much time and heartache on Angel (who proved totally unworthy of same) she couldn't let herself love Spike, who proved his worth again and again. Of course, Spike's journey is much more compelling to me b/c it was 1) primarily self-directed, and 2)we went thru it with him.
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Post by SpringSummers on Aug 18, 2005 21:41:30 GMT -5
I don't remember Tara's hair, which I guess suggests that I was neither impressed nor apalled. Joan is a good solid "normal" girl name, so that makes sense. But given what we see in this episode, and throughout Season 6, to me the "martyr" connection is deliberate and a definite. Notice how, free of her history of heartbreak and disappointment, Buffy loves her slaying (superpowers!) and Spike (Stay away from Randy!). But with her history, in "real life" she prefers to "feel the burden of Slayerness" (as Faith once said to Spike) and tell herself that she can never find true happiness in love (or true happiness, period) without Angel. She's closed up her heart - she believes she can never again love as well as she did at age 17 or so. Which is pretty sad. And she's believes her possibilities as far as other life choices, are totally limited by her Slayer burden. It's self-inflicted martyrdom, self-fulfilling prophecy. She's hanging on a cross, and she doesn't start to come off until the last ep of this Season, and then through Season 7. By the series finale, we hear specifically that Spike is "in her heart" (wow, that took some doing, breaking into that chamber, all locked, all shuttered and dank) and she has let go of the "I'm the one and only Slayer, I'm the Law" and of burdening herself with defining herself in that manner. That's the essential message underneath all the characters in BtVS - it's all about the power. If you tell yourself you're a victim of fate and circumstance, then you are. When you open your heart and mind to the possibilities, you free yourself. Hey, remember, I said I wouldn't deny the martyr thing. Oh yes - I remembered. I didn't write that stuff to dispute what you wrote (since you wrote that you were not denying it). You just got me going, you know? And the topic of Buffy's martyrdom is one I could go on and on about. She has this melancholy side to her nature from the very beginning, but it doesn't become ascendent until Season 6. She did let herself love Spike. Of course, he burned to a crisp shortly thereafter, but it was important for Buffy, nonetheless. It, like her willingness to share her Slayer power, signaled a sea change in Buffy - a true move into the world of the adult. I could go on an on on this as well. But must stop now.
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Post by Squeemonster on Aug 18, 2005 22:05:03 GMT -5
Tabula Rasa, yay! There is soooo much in this episode. 3 thoughts I wanted to share right from the off: *There is some nifty foreshadowing for Grave: Note who collapses next to who in the magic shop (I got part of this idea from the now defunct tvtome.com): Buffy/Dawn, Anya/Giles, Willow/Xander, Spike, Tara. at the end of Grave, Buffy and Dawn are in the cemetary, Anya and Giles are in the magic shop, Willow and Xander are on the bluff, Spike is in "Africa," and Tara is dead. The gang starts off their AmnesiaAdventures together but quickly get split apart by something rather mundane, run of the mill vampires, that has disastrous consequences because they are unprepared. (that's also sort of a microcosm of the season, too). Spike's rambling about being a Vampire-With-A-Soul. Willow creates the problem while Xander saves the day in a simple human way. Neat, huh? *AmnesiaSpike: Lots of reviews written at the time pointed out that this episode showed that Spike at his core really wasn't that bad and that he was special, etc. The problem with that was that we only had one example to go by (n=1 in science-speak). would other vampires react to memory loss/loss of identity? Well we get to see this, sort of, in Spin The Bottle with TeenageAngel (n=2, not scientifically valid, but better). So that AmnesiaSpike doesn't immediately know he's a vampire is probably not surprising since Angel didn't either initially. But what the episode shows I think is there is this underlying *desire* to be good ("I must be a good guy..."), something that, until he met Buffy, was buried deep down inside. <snip> You've hit on the essential thing, right there. For a lot of reasons, what we have is soulless Spike, constantly dealing with a completely repressed and denied desire to be good, in contrast with souled Angel, always struggling with a completely repressed and denied desire to be bad. Once you see that, their respective journeys start to make complete sense. And you can see where AtS Season 6 would have taken us, with Angel. Just as Spike finally faced up to his love for Buffy which led him to face his desire to be good, led him down the path to his soul, I think Angel would have finally faced his desire to return to Evil. He would have finally seen it, and owned it - and in doing so, would have finally - finally, at long last - found himself able to deal with it, to begin to take some control of it. He'd have learned how to anchor that soul. And Buffy in Tabula Rasa - she's so very, very protective of Spike. Which she actually always has been - though talk about repressed desires. Notice how the ep begins with Buffy telling Spike she's never, ever going to touch him again, then instinctively launching herself at him, and laying on top of him, all to protect him. They gravitate toward each other, and are very comfy with each other, but it's not about sex. It's about an affinity, it's about caring - she doesn't want to stake him; he doesn't want to bite her. Essentially, it's about love.Spring-- I agree with all that you've said here, but what I've highlighted in blue-- thank you for this.
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