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Post by Techno-bot on Jun 14, 2004 10:48:14 GMT -5
Written By: Doug Petrie
Directed By:Nick Marck
Air date: 10/8/02
Spike helps track a Tremors-like Slugoff demon.
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Post by Spaced Out Looney on Jan 16, 2006 12:41:26 GMT -5
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Post by Lola m on Jan 16, 2006 21:31:08 GMT -5
Wow! Love the listing of reviews (this is a favorite ep and favorite scene for me as well). Your analysis of the final scene is very interesting. I liked in particular: how you point out the multiple "costumes", including the actual creation of the Spike image itself; the various examples of fire imagery associated with Spike; the dual reasons he went to get a soul. I also really appreciated that you provided Angel's lines to compare to Spike's. Just a wonderful bit of writing, Liz! Thank you for these links! |
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Post by Lola m on Jul 9, 2006 14:00:42 GMT -5
Week two of the 2006 Episode Festival! And it's time to celebrate . . . Beneath You!From beneath you, it devours. That's what she said, and then they... There's more like her, Dawn. Out there somewhere. And they're gonna die.
Should we round up the gang?
Good thinking, except... this is the gang.
Can--can we rest now? Buffy...can we rest?
Link to Beneath You dialog here.
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Post by SpringSummers on Jul 10, 2006 11:58:25 GMT -5
Beneath You was a very good ep, overall. Dealing with Spike's return was a tricky thing and this ep handled it well.
I thought the final scene was very deliberately set up to contrast with the scene in "Angel", Season 1, when Buffy finds out about Angel's soul.
Spike is no more of a threat (in fact, less of one) than Angel was at the time, but Buffy's words and actions are entirely opposing - most notably, picking up a stake, instead of dropping one. Because things were never about "who was better" or "who was better for Buffy" or "who Buffy really loved." They were always about Buffy growing up and changing and reacting to internal and external pressures . . . coming to understand herself and her environment. Here, in this scene, we see how time and experience has changed Buffy from the compartively open-hearted and innocent girl she was in Season 1 - and in some ways foolishly fearless - to the "locked heart" and in some ways foolishly cautious person she is here at the beginning of Season 7.
Smiling at Spike at the end of Chosen, and smiling at what he has accomplished at the very end, goes on to show us that Buffy is on her way to finding the sort of balance an adult must find in life, between giving her heart away indiscriminately, and keeping it locked up in a reinforced safe.
But that scene - it was about a lot of things, but mostly, I thought it was about where Buffy was, emotionally, at that point in her life, and how different it was from where she had been at the age of 15/16.
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Post by Lola m on Jul 11, 2006 7:42:30 GMT -5
Another ep that has such an amazing mixture of funny and serious and characters and story arc and damn fine acting all around!!
The final scene between Buffy and Spike; Xander and Nancy when she's telling him about her ex; Dawn scaring Spike; the funny "boot bat and bastinada" conversation; Anya and her bitterness and Xander's "sooner or later, that excuse stops working".
There is much that is funny in this ep, but there's also such a theme of . . . sadness and sweetness.
And it comes as much from the small moments as from the big ones.
"It could be worse." "Oh, it will be."
"Should we round up the gang?" "Good thinking, except, this is the gang."
"Those kids are damn lucky having a slayer and a friend on campus there for 'em. I hope they appreciate it. I know I did. Days gone by, huh?"
"I'd love to offer you some guarantee that you'd be welcomed back to Sunnydale with open arms, but I can't. You may not be wanted, but you will be needed." (The whole scene with Willow and Giles is so wonderfully shot, too. The hallway, looking out into the rain, the lighting, etc. I mean, I know that this was just coincidental because it was actually raining there, but still. It matches the mood so well!)
"But we're not best friends anymore, so too bad for me. I'm not sharing."
"And you get so tired of feeling helpless that all you can do is just wish that it would stop?" "Wish?" (Oh, the look on Xander's face when he says that . . . )
"But you'll never understand 'cause you're all still so... human."
Lots of . . . emotionally ouchie moments in season 7. Lots of "you've been saving that up for a bit, haven't you" times.
Say - does anyone have a link to the originally written final scene (between Buffy and Spike)? I know it was very different as first done by Doug Petrie and that Joss altered it quite a bit. But I'm not sure if I've ever really read the original.
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Post by Spaced Out Looney on Jul 11, 2006 8:42:21 GMT -5
Say - does anyone have a link to the originally written final scene (between Buffy and Spike)? I know it was very different as first done by Doug Petrie and that Joss altered it quite a bit. But I'm not sure if I've ever really read the original. Yep. Original Shooting Script |
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Post by Onjel on Jul 11, 2006 9:19:24 GMT -5
Say - does anyone have a link to the originally written final scene (between Buffy and Spike)? I know it was very different as first done by Doug Petrie and that Joss altered it quite a bit. But I'm not sure if I've ever really read the original. Yep. Original Shooting ScriptHmmm. Mostly, I like the Joss version better. I can't even tell you which parts of the original I like, but I can tell you I like the Joss version better for some reason. I may have to print both scenes out and read them side by side to be coherent about it. |
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Post by Spaced Out Looney on Jul 11, 2006 9:41:28 GMT -5
Hmmm. Mostly, I like the Joss version better. I can't even tell you which parts of the original I like, but I can tell you I like the Joss version better for some reason. I may have to print both scenes out and read them side by side to be coherent about it. They are both at the bottom of my Compilation of Beneath You Reviews. Not side by side, exactly, but close. |
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Post by Lola m on Jul 11, 2006 16:41:34 GMT -5
Hmmm. Mostly, I like the Joss version better. I can't even tell you which parts of the original I like, but I can tell you I like the Joss version better for some reason. I may have to print both scenes out and read them side by side to be coherent about it. They are both at the bottom of my Compilation of Beneath You Reviews. Not side by side, exactly, but close. Gosh, I should have scrolled further down within the links you provided earlier, shouldn't I!! Thanks for the linkage, both times! I agree with Onjel (and you, in your commentary  ) that I prefer the scene as eventually shown. I think because, hmmmmmm, let's see if I can put it into words. Because Spike's language in the version that was used is: * more vague and, well, crazy - and thus fits where his character is right then * less overtly specifically religious, and so fits the rest of the Buffyverse better * has a better mix of his past and his relationship with Buffy - the other one is much more focused on his "Williamness" |
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Post by Onjel on Jul 11, 2006 20:46:37 GMT -5
Hmmm. Mostly, I like the Joss version better. I can't even tell you which parts of the original I like, but I can tell you I like the Joss version better for some reason. I may have to print both scenes out and read them side by side to be coherent about it. They are both at the bottom of my Compilation of Beneath You Reviews. Not side by side, exactly, but close. Cool! Thanks, Liz. I hadn't had time to check it out and now I must make the time.  |
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Post by Onjel on Jul 11, 2006 20:49:13 GMT -5
Gosh, I should have scrolled further down within the links you provided earlier, shouldn't I!! Thanks for the linkage, both times! I agree with Onjel (and you, in your commentary ) that I prefer the scene as eventually shown. I think because, hmmmmmm, let's see if I can put it into words. Because Spike's language in the version that was used is: * more vague and, well, crazy - and thus fits where his character is right then * less overtly specifically religious, and so fits the rest of the Buffyverse better * has a better mix of his past and his relationship with Buffy - the other one is much more focused on his "Williamness" I was having trouble putting my finger on it as well, but I have to agree. The original version was more like William at the time he left the party where Cecily rejected him and he was mocked. Too snively. Spike's been Spike for a hundred years, so he wouldn't, IMO revert that easily to the William persona, especially at William's weakest moment. |
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Post by Lola m on Jul 13, 2006 7:35:01 GMT -5
So - Xander and Nancy. Do you think they would have had a shot at things if it weren't for Ronnie the Worm-boy?
Or would Xander's hellmouth-y life have eventually ruined things?
I know, that's kind of a theme for all of them really. I mean, can any of them have a relationship with someone who isn't fully in on the demons-demons-demons aspect of their lives?
Each time they've tried, the person has either turned out to be already in on the thing (Riley, Tara, Anya) or willing to join up (Cordy, Oz - um, I guess he goes in both camps, doesn't he).
I always think back to Olivia - Giles' chance at someone not "connected" to the oogies. And look how well that went. At the end of Hush, when she's realizing what this really means . . . well, that was probably the final blow to the relationship.
So, if Nancy had stuck around, do you think she would have been drawn into the Scoobie gang? Or, if not, could things have worked with Xander anyway?
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Post by Onjel on Jul 13, 2006 20:56:24 GMT -5
So - Xander and Nancy. Do you think they would have had a shot at things if it weren't for Ronnie the Worm-boy? Or would Xander's hellmouth-y life have eventually ruined things? I know, that's kind of a theme for all of them really. I mean, can any of them have a relationship with someone who isn't fully in on the demons-demons-demons aspect of their lives? Each time they've tried, the person has either turned out to be already in on the thing (Riley, Tara, Anya) or willing to join up (Cordy, Oz - um, I guess he goes in both camps, doesn't he). I always think back to Olivia - Giles' chance at someone not "connected" to the oogies. And look how well that went. At the end of Hush, when she's realizing what this really means . . . well, that was probably the final blow to the relationship. So, if Nancy had stuck around, do you think she would have been drawn into the Scoobie gang? Or, if not, could things have worked with Xander anyway? I lean toward the side of the fence that says they could not have made it unless Nancy was willing to "suspend disbelief" and come to accept that Sunnydale's weirdness wasn't explained by "gangs on PCP", or some other mundane explanation. Even then, I really believed that Xander and Anya would eventually reconcile (which they kind of did) and that in the long run, he would be with someone who was part and parcel of his world. Xander and Buffy may have expressed longing for "normal mates" but in the end they weren't well-suited to "normal mates". That's probably why Xander was such a "demon magnet". Cordelia is his big exception, but anyone who could accept the existence of the supernatural/paranormal without blinking, doesn't match the definition of normal in the Buffyverse. |
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Post by Queen E on Jul 14, 2006 18:45:59 GMT -5
Another ep that has such an amazing mixture of funny and serious and characters and story arc and damn fine acting all around!! The final scene between Buffy and Spike; Xander and Nancy when she's telling him about her ex; Dawn scaring Spike; the funny "boot bat and bastinada" conversation; Anya and her bitterness and Xander's "sooner or later, that excuse stops working". There is much that is funny in this ep, but there's also such a theme of . . . sadness and sweetness. And it comes as much from the small moments as from the big ones. "It could be worse." "Oh, it will be." "Should we round up the gang?" "Good thinking, except, this is the gang." "Those kids are damn lucky having a slayer and a friend on campus there for 'em. I hope they appreciate it. I know I did. Days gone by, huh?" "I'd love to offer you some guarantee that you'd be welcomed back to Sunnydale with open arms, but I can't. You may not be wanted, but you will be needed." (The whole scene with Willow and Giles is so wonderfully shot, too. The hallway, looking out into the rain, the lighting, etc. I mean, I know that this was just coincidental because it was actually raining there, but still. It matches the mood so well!) "But we're not best friends anymore, so too bad for me. I'm not sharing." "And you get so tired of feeling helpless that all you can do is just wish that it would stop?" "Wish?" (Oh, the look on Xander's face when he says that . . . ) "But you'll never understand 'cause you're all still so... human." Lots of . . . emotionally ouchie moments in season 7. Lots of "you've been saving that up for a bit, haven't you" times. Say - does anyone have a link to the originally written final scene (between Buffy and Spike)? I know it was very different as first done by Doug Petrie and that Joss altered it quite a bit. But I'm not sure if I've ever really read the original. And, in literary terms, rain symbolizes rebirth. Yet, the water doesn't touch Willow, because Giles is covering her with an umbrella. Which is doubly intriguing when you know that she "wasn't finished" with her rehabilitation by the time she left, and that it was Giles sending her away. Essentially, what that scene symbolizes, correctly or incorrectly, is that Giles is shielding her from being completely well... |
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) that I prefer the scene as eventually shown. 
