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Post by Lola m on Jul 15, 2006 11:06:03 GMT -5
Another ep that has such an amazing mixture of funny and serious and characters and story arc and damn fine acting all around!! The final scene between Buffy and Spike; Xander and Nancy when she's telling him about her ex; Dawn scaring Spike; the funny "boot bat and bastinada" conversation; Anya and her bitterness and Xander's "sooner or later, that excuse stops working". There is much that is funny in this ep, but there's also such a theme of . . . sadness and sweetness. And it comes as much from the small moments as from the big ones. "It could be worse." "Oh, it will be." "Should we round up the gang?" "Good thinking, except, this is the gang." "Those kids are damn lucky having a slayer and a friend on campus there for 'em. I hope they appreciate it. I know I did. Days gone by, huh?" "I'd love to offer you some guarantee that you'd be welcomed back to Sunnydale with open arms, but I can't. You may not be wanted, but you will be needed." (The whole scene with Willow and Giles is so wonderfully shot, too. The hallway, looking out into the rain, the lighting, etc. I mean, I know that this was just coincidental because it was actually raining there, but still. It matches the mood so well!) "But we're not best friends anymore, so too bad for me. I'm not sharing." "And you get so tired of feeling helpless that all you can do is just wish that it would stop?" "Wish?" (Oh, the look on Xander's face when he says that . . . ) "But you'll never understand 'cause you're all still so... human." Lots of . . . emotionally ouchie moments in season 7. Lots of "you've been saving that up for a bit, haven't you" times. Say - does anyone have a link to the originally written final scene (between Buffy and Spike)? I know it was very different as first done by Doug Petrie and that Joss altered it quite a bit. But I'm not sure if I've ever really read the original. And, in literary terms, rain symbolizes rebirth. Yet, the water doesn't touch Willow, because Giles is covering her with an umbrella. Which is doubly intriguing when you know that she "wasn't finished" with her rehabilitation by the time she left, and that it was Giles sending her away. Essentially, what that scene symbolizes, correctly or incorrectly, is that Giles is shielding her from being completely well... Oh, yeah! And the very first scene between them, in the episode before? She brings the flower up and then sends it back. Which, yeah, very good example of how she is learning to use her power wisely and not go against the natural world, but still. Bringing life forth and then sending it back . . .
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Post by Spaced Out Looney on Jul 16, 2006 9:49:17 GMT -5
I already wrote extensively about the final scene (see the link above) so I won't say anything more, except that James should have been at least nominated for an Emmy, dammit!
*It's all about failed relationships, romantic (Buffy/Spike, Xander/Anya, Dawn/Halloween Vampire Date, Nancy/Ronnie, Anya’s client/her ex) and family (the gang at this point really only consists of Buffy, Xander, and Dawn; we see Willow, Anya, and Spike wavering about whether to rejoin the gang)
*Ronnie: How bad was Ronnie really? We only have Nancy's word on their past realtionship. Is she a reliable judge of his character? We see similar resentments among the s'cubies but know that there is usually blame on both sides. And even with Nancy's assessment that he was an abusive bastard, she doesn't seem to believe that he deserves what he got.
*From Beneath You It Devours: The catchphrase has both literal and metaphorical interpretations. Literally, it refers to the Hellmouth which swallows the town in Chosen but metaphorically it refers back to the line in “Fool For Love” spoken by Cecily and Buffy: “You’re beneath me.” We also see Spike pole twirling and his desire to be worthy of Buffy.
*The significance of touch: Buffy flinches from Spike, Spike flinches from Buffy, Anya flinches from Spike, interestingly, Buffy and Spike reached out towards each other without flinching in Lessons
*Eating/food imagery: Spike presumably feeding off of rats, Principle Flutie was eaten, Anya's client orders food, Buffy mentions The Doublemeat Palace, Xander mentions good food in Sunnydale
*Spike hunting the rats in the basement. I think the implication that he was living on them to survive. If so, ouch; he would feel the pain chip every time he killed one. It’s possible he was just stalking them for company or The First was testing the trigger.
*Spike’s rambling in the basement: I think The First was pressuring Spike to choose a side, i.e. go back to the gang when he knew he wasn’t stable enough. That would explain what he was talking about. "Now is not the time. Not hardly ready." On the other hand, he could have been referring to it not being time for the shaking and the town to be destroyed since he prophetically knew about it.
*Buffy's job: seems a lot like Mr. Platt's in Beauty and the Beasts, particularly Wood telling her that she's not there to be the student's friend. Buffy asking if she can give detention reminds me of Willow asking the same thing in Passion.
*Buffy: Look, Nancy, we're going to get into this. And I promise you, if your dog is alive, we're going to find him. The only thing that I need is a little— Spike: What you need is help. Fortunately, you've got me. I wonder what Buffy was going to say she needed? Time?
*Important firsts in this episode: Spike doesn't rise to Xander's bait (in the living room scene), Buffy admits that Spike has changed
*When Spike was making a scene in the Bronze, we never see any reaction shots from the gang. Did they hear what he was saying? Did they know any details about Spike and Buffy's relationship (other than the attempted rape)? Did they notice that he could hit her without the pain chip going off? Did they ever question Buffy about that?
*Spike mentioned the dog during his ranting in the alley, but I don’t think Buffy would have told him about that. So was that something The First told him about?
Notes on the shallow side: *I love the Run Lola Run potential.
*I love the cut from Spike screaming in the in the dark basement to Buffy, Xander, and Dawn in the bright sunlit car
*I can't make up my mind about Spike's shirt, except that it seems to have been fitted before James regained the weight he lost in season 6.
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Post by Spaced Out Looney on Jul 16, 2006 9:50:25 GMT -5
Also, A New Leaf a post Beneath You fic I wrote (picking up from the very end).
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Post by Lola m on Jul 17, 2006 7:23:32 GMT -5
I already wrote extensively about the final scene (see the link above) so I won't say anything more, except that James should have been at least nominated for an Emmy, dammit! True dat!!!!! **does stompy foot hearty agreement thing** And that's where the touch of sadness from little moments comes from, for me. Season one goes "back to the beginning", but we have to deal with the reality of where they all are now in order to get back to the closeness they started with. Like . . . we don't really see them as they were in high school, just see them regain their friendships again - but only after dealing with all that's happened since. Ooooh, good metaphor! **nods** Xander and Nancy sort of reach for each other, but are interrupted. Which leaves one to wonder how crazy!Spike was managing to survive. Because I can't imagine him being together enough to buy blood - frankly, I wonder how he was together enough to make it back to Sunnydale. Well, perhaps The First simply took over for a bit. Depending on when The First got control of him. It's interesting how little the gang gets involved. Even Xander, once he knows about the soul and the trigger, backs off the topic and is all non-committal "whatever" guy when Anya tries to stir the pot. I get this vague vibe that that Buffy tells them virtually nothing - ever. But that all of them slowly start to understand that the relationship was more . . . complicated . . . than they realized. And they all start taking more of a "I'm not touching that topic with a ten foot pole" stand. But really, that's just all my opinion. Canon gives us no concrete info, as far as I can tell. I love that with a fiery happiness. ;D I've always liked the infamous Blue Shirt myself.
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Post by Lola m on Jul 17, 2006 7:29:01 GMT -5
Also, A New Leaf a post Beneath You fic I wrote (picking up from the very end). Oooooh, you fit all the later plot points together - what people are and aren't told, etc.! Filled in the gaps rather nicely, really. A good feel for what might have been swirling around in Spike's crazed brain - and for Buffy's confusion and hurt.
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Post by Spaced Out Looney on Jul 17, 2006 14:56:18 GMT -5
So - Xander and Nancy. Do you think they would have had a shot at things if it weren't for Ronnie the Worm-boy? Or would Xander's hellmouth-y life have eventually ruined things? I know, that's kind of a theme for all of them really. I mean, can any of them have a relationship with someone who isn't fully in on the demons-demons-demons aspect of their lives? Each time they've tried, the person has either turned out to be already in on the thing (Riley, Tara, Anya) or willing to join up (Cordy, Oz - um, I guess he goes in both camps, doesn't he). I always think back to Olivia - Giles' chance at someone not "connected" to the oogies. And look how well that went. At the end of Hush, when she's realizing what this really means . . . well, that was probably the final blow to the relationship. So, if Nancy had stuck around, do you think she would have been drawn into the Scoobie gang? Or, if not, could things have worked with Xander anyway? So, Nancy and Xander. Well Xander and Anya were still so all caught up with not dealing with the fallout of their relationship that I think Xander would have sabatoged any chances he had with Nancy. And that's not even a Hellmouthy thing. It's hard to judge Nancy's reaction because she really caught the gang at their most dysfunctional. I think any one would have reacted negatively if that was their first exposure to the gang. In season 7 we see the Scoobie gang become less of a clique and more inclusive, so if Nancy had shown an interest in being involved it's likely that she would have been accepted. Before she went to the Scoobies, she mentioned that she had "heard about strange things" going on in Sunnydale but didn't believe them. So she was kind of borderline between someone who forgets everything that doesn't make a normal kind of sense and some one who sees things for what they really are. I'm just going to be Little Miss Indecisive here and say that I think she could have gone either way. ;D
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Post by leftylady on Jul 20, 2006 19:21:47 GMT -5
Xander and Buffy may have expressed longing for "normal mates" but in the end they weren't well-suited to "normal mates". That's probably why Xander was such a "demon magnet". Cordelia is his big exception, but anyone who could accept the existence of the supernatural/paranormal without blinking, doesn't match the definition of normal in the Buffyverse. Or you could consider Sunnydale Cordelia as "pre-demon". The Powers did target her for demonization afterall. So Xander's record is intact.
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Post by leftylady on Jul 20, 2006 19:27:06 GMT -5
I already wrote extensively about the final scene (see the link above) so I won't say anything more, except that James should have been at least nominated for an Emmy, dammit! *It's all about failed relationships, romantic (Buffy/Spike, Xander/Anya, Dawn/Halloween Vampire Date, Nancy/Ronnie, Anya’s client/her ex) and family (the gang at this point really only consists of Buffy, Xander, and Dawn; we see Willow, Anya, and Spike wavering about whether to rejoin the gang) *Ronnie: How bad was Ronnie really? We only have Nancy's word on their past realtionship. Is she a reliable judge of his character? We see similar resentments among the s'cubies but know that there is usually blame on both sides. And even with Nancy's assessment that he was an abusive bastard, she doesn't seem to believe that he deserves what he got. *From Beneath You It Devours: The catchphrase has both literal and metaphorical interpretations. Literally, it refers to the Hellmouth which swallows the town in Chosen but metaphorically it refers back to the line in “Fool For Love” spoken by Cecily and Buffy: “You’re beneath me.” We also see Spike pole twirling and his desire to be worthy of Buffy. *The significance of touch: Buffy flinches from Spike, Spike flinches from Buffy, Anya flinches from Spike, interestingly, Buffy and Spike reached out towards each other without flinching in Lessons *Eating/food imagery: Spike presumably feeding off of rats, Principle Flutie was eaten, Anya's client orders food, Buffy mentions The Doublemeat Palace, Xander mentions good food in Sunnydale *Spike hunting the rats in the basement. I think the implication that he was living on them to survive. If so, ouch; he would feel the pain chip every time he killed one. It’s possible he was just stalking them for company or The First was testing the trigger. *Spike’s rambling in the basement: I think The First was pressuring Spike to choose a side, i.e. go back to the gang when he knew he wasn’t stable enough. That would explain what he was talking about. "Now is not the time. Not hardly ready." On the other hand, he could have been referring to it not being time for the shaking and the town to be destroyed since he prophetically knew about it. *Buffy's job: seems a lot like Mr. Platt's in Beauty and the Beasts, particularly Wood telling her that she's not there to be the student's friend. Buffy asking if she can give detention reminds me of Willow asking the same thing in Passion. * Buffy: Look, Nancy, we're going to get into this. And I promise you, if your dog is alive, we're going to find him. The only thing that I need is a little— Spike: What you need is help. Fortunately, you've got me.I wonder what Buffy was going to say she needed? Time? *Important firsts in this episode: Spike doesn't rise to Xander's bait (in the living room scene), Buffy admits that Spike has changed *When Spike was making a scene in the Bronze, we never see any reaction shots from the gang. Did they hear what he was saying? Did they know any details about Spike and Buffy's relationship (other than the attempted rape)? Did they notice that he could hit her without the pain chip going off? Did they ever question Buffy about that? *Spike mentioned the dog during his ranting in the alley, but I don’t think Buffy would have told him about that. So was that something The First told him about? Notes on the shallow side: *I love the Run Lola Run potential. *I love the cut from Spike screaming in the in the dark basement to Buffy, Xander, and Dawn in the bright sunlit car *I can't make up my mind about Spike's shirt, except that it seems to have been fitted before James regained the weight he lost in season 6. Interesting observations, Liz. I've always loved this episode but never caught as much as you did below the surface. leftylady, missing everyone while she's tied up, bound and gagged at work ["below the surface" - did I just type that?]
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Post by leftylady on Jul 20, 2006 19:29:21 GMT -5
Another ep that has such an amazing mixture of funny and serious and characters and story arc and damn fine acting all around!! The final scene between Buffy and Spike; Xander and Nancy when she's telling him about her ex; Dawn scaring Spike; the funny "boot bat and bastinada" conversation; Anya and her bitterness and Xander's "sooner or later, that excuse stops working". There is much that is funny in this ep, but there's also such a theme of . . . sadness and sweetness. And it comes as much from the small moments as from the big ones. "It could be worse." "Oh, it will be." "Should we round up the gang?" "Good thinking, except, this is the gang." "Those kids are damn lucky having a slayer and a friend on campus there for 'em. I hope they appreciate it. I know I did. Days gone by, huh?" "I'd love to offer you some guarantee that you'd be welcomed back to Sunnydale with open arms, but I can't. You may not be wanted, but you will be needed." (The whole scene with Willow and Giles is so wonderfully shot, too. The hallway, looking out into the rain, the lighting, etc. I mean, I know that this was just coincidental because it was actually raining there, but still. It matches the mood so well!) "But we're not best friends anymore, so too bad for me. I'm not sharing." "And you get so tired of feeling helpless that all you can do is just wish that it would stop?" "Wish?" (Oh, the look on Xander's face when he says that . . . ) "But you'll never understand 'cause you're all still so... human." Lots of . . . emotionally ouchie moments in season 7. Lots of "you've been saving that up for a bit, haven't you" times. Say - does anyone have a link to the originally written final scene (between Buffy and Spike)? I know it was very different as first done by Doug Petrie and that Joss altered it quite a bit. But I'm not sure if I've ever really read the original. A lot of great quotes in this episode. Thanks for reminding us, Lola.
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Post by Lola m on Jul 21, 2006 7:31:32 GMT -5
I already wrote extensively about the final scene (see the link above) so I won't say anything more, except that James should have been at least nominated for an Emmy, dammit! *It's all about failed relationships, romantic (Buffy/Spike, Xander/Anya, Dawn/Halloween Vampire Date, Nancy/Ronnie, Anya’s client/her ex) and family (the gang at this point really only consists of Buffy, Xander, and Dawn; we see Willow, Anya, and Spike wavering about whether to rejoin the gang) *Ronnie: How bad was Ronnie really? We only have Nancy's word on their past realtionship. Is she a reliable judge of his character? We see similar resentments among the s'cubies but know that there is usually blame on both sides. And even with Nancy's assessment that he was an abusive bastard, she doesn't seem to believe that he deserves what he got. *From Beneath You It Devours: The catchphrase has both literal and metaphorical interpretations. Literally, it refers to the Hellmouth which swallows the town in Chosen but metaphorically it refers back to the line in “Fool For Love” spoken by Cecily and Buffy: “You’re beneath me.” We also see Spike pole twirling and his desire to be worthy of Buffy. *The significance of touch: Buffy flinches from Spike, Spike flinches from Buffy, Anya flinches from Spike, interestingly, Buffy and Spike reached out towards each other without flinching in Lessons *Eating/food imagery: Spike presumably feeding off of rats, Principle Flutie was eaten, Anya's client orders food, Buffy mentions The Doublemeat Palace, Xander mentions good food in Sunnydale *Spike hunting the rats in the basement. I think the implication that he was living on them to survive. If so, ouch; he would feel the pain chip every time he killed one. It’s possible he was just stalking them for company or The First was testing the trigger. *Spike’s rambling in the basement: I think The First was pressuring Spike to choose a side, i.e. go back to the gang when he knew he wasn’t stable enough. That would explain what he was talking about. "Now is not the time. Not hardly ready." On the other hand, he could have been referring to it not being time for the shaking and the town to be destroyed since he prophetically knew about it. *Buffy's job: seems a lot like Mr. Platt's in Beauty and the Beasts, particularly Wood telling her that she's not there to be the student's friend. Buffy asking if she can give detention reminds me of Willow asking the same thing in Passion. * Buffy: Look, Nancy, we're going to get into this. And I promise you, if your dog is alive, we're going to find him. The only thing that I need is a little— Spike: What you need is help. Fortunately, you've got me.I wonder what Buffy was going to say she needed? Time? *Important firsts in this episode: Spike doesn't rise to Xander's bait (in the living room scene), Buffy admits that Spike has changed *When Spike was making a scene in the Bronze, we never see any reaction shots from the gang. Did they hear what he was saying? Did they know any details about Spike and Buffy's relationship (other than the attempted rape)? Did they notice that he could hit her without the pain chip going off? Did they ever question Buffy about that? *Spike mentioned the dog during his ranting in the alley, but I don’t think Buffy would have told him about that. So was that something The First told him about? Notes on the shallow side: *I love the Run Lola Run potential. *I love the cut from Spike screaming in the in the dark basement to Buffy, Xander, and Dawn in the bright sunlit car *I can't make up my mind about Spike's shirt, except that it seems to have been fitted before James regained the weight he lost in season 6. Interesting observations, Liz. I've always loved this episode but never caught as much as you did below the surface. leftylady, missing everyone while she's tied up, bound and gagged at work ["below the surface" - did I just type that?] ;D So you're saying the episode's themes eat us, starting with our bottoms? **attempts to rescue leftylady from her cruel workplace**
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