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Post by Techno-bot on Jun 14, 2004 11:42:51 GMT -5
Written By: David Fury
Directed By:Michael Grossman
Air date: 1/07/03
Buffy goes up against the UberVamp.
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Post by Onjel on Sept 9, 2004 10:17:55 GMT -5
Just saw this episode, again, this morning and was thinking about the whole revelation from Beljoxa's Eye. The eye said that the mystical forces surrounding the slayer line were out of balance because Buffy was resurrected. Anya took that to mean that she, Xander, Willow and Tara were responsible for the First trying to end the line and the world in S7. But, the First made an appearance in S3, by trying to get Angel to kill himself and told Angel that the First had brought him back for an evil purpose. Wouldn't that suggest that the mystical forces became unbalanced when Xander did CPR in S1 and brought Buffy back to life? After all, it's after that incident that we have two slayers for the rest of the show. First Kendra and then Faith. Any thoughts, or am I repeating something someone else has already addressed?
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Post by Rachael on Sept 9, 2004 11:14:24 GMT -5
Just saw this episode, again, this morning and was thinking about the whole revelation from Beljoxa's Eye. The eye said that the mystical forces surrounding the slayer line were out of balance because Buffy was resurrected. Anya took that to mean that she, Xander, Willow and Tara were responsible for the First trying to end the line and the world in S7. But, the First made an appearance in S3, by trying to get Angel to kill himself and told Angel that the First had brought him back for an evil purpose. Wouldn't that suggest that the mystical forces became unbalanced when Xander did CPR in S1 and brought Buffy back to life? After all, it's after that incident that we have two slayers for the rest of the show. First Kendra and then Faith. Any thoughts, or am I repeating something someone else has already addressed? Well, yeah, you are, but that's cool, 'cause it's not like we expect you to have read all the posts back to the dawn of time.  Hi, Onjel, BTW. Haven't seen you over on the main board, but your post caught my eye 'cause Showtime was on this morning. . . . And - yeah, my personal theory was that the split in the Slayer line that Bejoxa's Eye was referring to was the one generated in Prophesy Girl - when Xander brought Buffy back the first time. It was that death that first disturbed the balance, and generated two Slayers. Further, it was that death that made Buffy kind of a dead-end, Slayer-wise - the next time she died, apparently no one was called. And you're further correct that the first (hee) time we encounter The First Evil was in Season 3. . .not all THAT long after the first resurrection. But it's also ironic, don't you think, that the thing that allowed the First to take a shot at the Slayer line in the first place (there being a split in that line) was also what allowed Buffy to win in the end? When she and Willow took the initiative to turn the "line" into a "web", and call every Slayer, all at once, she took the perceived weakness and made it into a strength. Lola and I have been talking about the lines between "Prophesy Girl" and "Chosen" over on the "Prophesy Girl" thread, too.  |
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Post by Onjel on Sept 9, 2004 12:25:26 GMT -5
Absolutely! If there can be two slayers, why not more? Chosen was supposed to take us back to the beginning (Prophecy Girl) and it did by paralleling the conversation between Willow, Xander and Buffy about what they wanted to do after the battle, but more importantly, by ending with more than one slayer. Although they did not know it at the end of Prophecy Girl, Buffy and friends had company, because Kendra was already called. As to me not being on the main board, I don't know what to contribute to that discussion. Probably, because I haven't had time to read through it and don't really know anyone here yet. Thanks for the response! I'll check out the Prophecy Girl thread. |
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Post by Rachael on Sept 9, 2004 12:36:06 GMT -5
Absolutely! If there can be two slayers, why not more? Chosen was supposed to take us back to the beginning (Prophecy Girl) and it did by paralleling the conversation between Willow, Xander and Buffy about what they wanted to do after the battle, but more importantly, by ending with more than one slayer. Although they did not know it at the end of Prophecy Girl, Buffy and friends had company, because Kendra was already called. As to me not being on the main board, I don't know what to contribute to that discussion. Probably, because I haven't had time to read through it and don't really know anyone here yet. Thanks for the response! I'll check out the Prophecy Girl thread. Just jump on in, if you wanna, on the Main Board. You don't have to know anyone - none of us did, the first time. If you're worried about the personal conversations, or even bored with them ( ), just drop by when we're actually on-topic - it DOES happen. Occasionally. Or post something you'd like to talk about. |
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Post by Onjel on Sept 9, 2004 12:50:33 GMT -5
Just jump on in, if you wanna, on the Main Board. You don't have to know anyone - none of us did, the first time. If you're worried about the personal conversations, or even bored with them ( ), just drop by when we're actually on-topic - it DOES happen. Occasionally. Or post something you'd like to talk about. Will do. Thanks for the tip. Wish I had more time to read the main board and get a feel for what is happening there. But, sigh, have to make a living.  |
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Post by Spaced Out Looney on Jan 11, 2005 16:09:59 GMT -5
Here's my theory about how Buffy’s death disrupted the Slayer line and allowed The First to start killing all the Potentials: I'd love for people to tell me if this makes sense or if I'm completely crazy because I've never seen anyone else come to this conclusion although it occurred to me right away. As The Mayor/The First explains in Touched, not only can The First take the form of dead people, but it knows everything that the dead people do. Buffy’s first death resulted in the activation of the next Slayer; her second death and resurrection must have allowed The First appear in her form and to access her brain so to speak. It's significant that we never see The First take Buffy's form to torture Angel in Amends, although that would have been ideal for it. So it knows everything she knows; hence The First knowing exactly how to manipulate her. Based on the shared Buffy/Faith dream in Graduation Day 2 and Buffy’s dream of the Run Lola Run Potential in Beneath You (and the implication that she had had similar dreams), I think all the Slayers and Potentials are connected on a subconscious level; “It’s all connected,” as they say. So her resurrection gave The First knowledge of exactly who all the Potentials are and allows it to track them down and kill them. I imagine that The First started killing them subtly after her resurrection and it just took the Council, being mired in bureaucratic muck, a little while to catch on. During season 6 Buffy and the gang were so dysfunctional it was hardly a threat to The First. It only started messing with them when they had come back together in Conversations With Dead People. If Buffy ends up dying again, The First no longer has access to this knowledge, which is why it’s intent on killing all the Potentials, then Faith before her.
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Post by Onjel on Jan 12, 2005 11:58:02 GMT -5
Here's my theory about how Buffy’s death disrupted the Slayer line and allowed The First to start killing all the Potentials: I'd love for people to tell me if this makes sense or if I'm completely crazy because I've never seen anyone else come to this conclusion although it occurred to me right away. As The Mayor/The First explains in Touched, not only can The First take the form of dead people, but it knows everything that the dead people do. Buffy’s first death resulted in the activation of the next Slayer; her second death and resurrection must have allowed The First appear in her form and to access her brain so to speak. It's significant that we never see The First take Buffy's form to torture Angel in Amends, although that would have been ideal for it. So it knows everything she knows; hence The First knowing exactly how to manipulate her. Based on the shared Buffy/Faith dream in Graduation Day 2 and Buffy’s dream of the Run Lola Run Potential in Beneath You (and the implication that she had had similar dreams), I think all the Slayers and Potentials are connected on a subconscious level; “It’s all connected,” as they say. So her resurrection gave The First knowledge of exactly who all the Potentials are and allows it to track them down and kill them. I imagine that The First started killing them subtly after her resurrection and it just took the Council, being mired in bureaucratic muck, a little while to catch on. During season 6 Buffy and the gang were so dysfunctional it was hardly a threat to The First. It only started messing with them when they had come back together in Conversations With Dead People. If Buffy ends up dying again, The First no longer has access to this knowledge, which is why it’s intent on killing all the Potentials, then Faith before her. Good points. I've often wondered why the First did not appear as Buffy before S7. Clearly, she died twice, so was it the cellular sunburn from the resurrection that allowed the First to take her form? You are right. The First would know all that Buffy knows, but she has no conscious knowledge of the identities of the potentials. However, if Buffy is the last of the known slayer line, any hidden potentials could be drawn to her ane eliminated, despite the implication that all of the potentials were in Sunnydale for the final confrontation. Given the effect of Willow's spell in Chosen, it is clear, however, that there were many more potentials around the globe and keeping Buffy around would work to flush out the rest, I guess. If she was the last of the two slayers, her death at the First's hands would only serve to awaken another slayer, since many more potentials were out there. Without a watcher, however, what would have been the outcome of such an event, I wonder. |
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Post by Spaced Out Looney on Jan 12, 2005 12:40:32 GMT -5
Good points. I've often wondered why the First did not appear as Buffy before S7. Clearly, she died twice, so was it the cellular sunburn from the resurrection that allowed the First to take her form? You are right. The First would know all that Buffy knows, but she has no conscious knowledge of the identities of the potentials. However, if Buffy is the last of the known slayer line, any hidden potentials could be drawn to her ane eliminated, despite the implication that all of the potentials were in Sunnydale for the final confrontation. Given the effect of Willow's spell in Chosen, it is clear, however, that there were many more potentials around the globe and keeping Buffy around would work to flush out the rest, I guess. If she was the last of the two slayers, her death at the First's hands would only serve to awaken another slayer, since many more potentials were out there. Without a watcher, however, what would have been the outcome of such an event, I wonder. Ooh, it could be her molecular sunburn (or the urn breaking before the end of the spell, which is my personal theory as to why she has a molecular sunburn) that allows The First to take her form. My thoughts are that some deep dark place in Buffy's head she has a connection to all the other Potentials, like mystically or something, (hence the shared dreams) and The First can access it even if Buffy can't close her eyes and say "there's a Potential over there." It looks like The First went after the more obvious ones first, the ones being trained by Watchers to destroy the whole system and the ones ID'd and on their way to Buffy to demoralize her. Considering how many Potentials there ended up being, I guess systematically eliminating them would have taken years, but the First has all the Bringers and time in the world. It is interesting that most of the Potentials were actually undetected by the Watchers Council. Hmm... |
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Post by Onjel on Jan 12, 2005 13:03:56 GMT -5
Ooo, it could be her molecular sunburn (or the urn breaking before the end of the spell, which is my personal theory as to why she has a molecular sunburn) that allows The First to take her form. My thoughts are that some deep dark place in Buffy's head she has a connection to all the other Potentials, like mystically or something, (hence the shared dreams) and The First can access it even if Buffy can't close her eyes and say "there's a Potential over there." It looks like The First went after the more obvious ones first, the ones being trained by Watchers to destroy the whole system and the ones ID'd and on their way to Buffy to demoralize her. Considering how many Potentials there ended up being, I guess systematically eliminating them would have taken years, but the First has all the Bringers and time in the world. It is interesting that most of the Potentials were actually undetected by the Watchers Council. Hmm... I like the broken urn theory. There would have to be a reason she came back with that sunburn and there is nothing else to point to other than the ritual was interrupted and never "finished" in the right way. Interesting observation about the Watchers' Council. I never thought of that. Maybe potentials don't hit the council radar until a certain age? |
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Post by Lola m on Jan 13, 2005 18:17:10 GMT -5
I like the broken urn theory. There would have to be a reason she came back with that sunburn and there is nothing else to point to other than the ritual was interrupted and never "finished" in the right way. Interesting observation about the Watchers' Council. I never thought of that. Maybe potentials don't hit the council radar until a certain age? I too like the broken urn theory. It would really explain the "came back wrong" stuff neatly while wrapping up the loose thread of the urn being smashed. I think not only do most potentials not hit the council radar right away, I think that some don't get noticed until they actually become a slayer. Lola |
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Post by Lola m on Dec 30, 2007 22:20:09 GMT -5
Figured I'd post this on both the BOTN and the Showtime threads, since I had these thoughts after watching both of them. _______________________ So, I was watching the Buffy eps on FX this weekend ( Bring on the Night and Showtime) and had some thoughts about season 7. Thoughts about these two eps, yes, but really those led to thoughts about the season as a whole and so on. In order to get them out of my head and maybe see what you guys think . . . much babble follows.  First, I remember at the time how some folks (myself included sometimes) were talking about how the uber-vamp was so powerful and almost undefeatable by Buffy in thse first eps but that by the end of the season, even the potentials were fighting against them. But in watching these two eps, a couple of things really struck me that make me look at this supposed change in a new light. The first thing that came to mind was being reminded how very very exhausted and overwhelmed Buffy is in BOTN. She hasn't slept for days, she's worried about Spike and frustrated that she can't save him immediately, she's just found out that the Watcher's Council is gone and that this probably truly apocalyptic apocalypse is at hand and it's all on her, etc. etc. So she's scared - more scared and desparate feeling, I think, than she was even when she ran from Glory. And this affects her in her fist first fights with the ubervamp. Plus, she doesn't yet know how to defeat him, because she's fighting like he's just a vamp, but an ordinary stake won't kill him. So she freaks out. I could compare it to how she reacted to the Cruciamentum. Initial panic because the rules have changed, but ultimately, she still finds a way to dust her foe, all by herself. So, really that means the ubervamps are just slightly harder to kill vamps. Another killable monster, once you find out how to kill it. As to the potentials, well by the time we get to Chosen, they've been training hard all season. We've watched them! They are not the same almost defenseless girls that we saw in BOTN and Showtime. Second, there's the scythe, which, like many, I've tended to view with a slightly cynical eye. But, thinking about it this weekend, it makes more sense when I started thinking about all the things we learn about TFE in these eps (and others in season 7). I started thinking about how we are reminded of "balance" and how this fight/apocalypse is different because TFE is "done with" the balance between good and evil. BtVS never had a defined "head of the supernatural good guys" like AtS had in TPTB. But we have seen someone intervene against TFE before, and in a supernatural way. The snow that falls and saves Angel. So, if you think about it, we've been shown all along that generally, both the ultimate good and ultimate evil stay out of things - they strive for balance, generally, and let the humans and demons fight it out in an individualized way. But each can sometimes go too far and throw the balance out of whack and then the other will step in more than they usually would. In seaon 3's Amends, even though Angel is destined to play a big part in a later apocalypse, TFE decides to step in personally to try and stop that. So, the "other side" also intervenes and creates the snow. In season 7, I think what Beljoxa's Eye was getting at was that TFE belives that the balance has been tipped "too far" because of the creation (supernaturally) of two slayers. If so, then that's why it has the opportunity to intervene directly again, this time hoping to tip things its way, ending the balance once and for all. BUT, I think it's this direct intervention by TFE that is what allows the Guardian to also intervene directly, giving Buffy the scythe. So, this would make the scythe a logical and almost to be expected instance of supernatural good guy meddling, rather than just a too-convenient deus ex machina. Plus, it means that it's OK that we never hear about Beljoxa's eye again, it's not necessary. The info it provided was just a clue on the path to the scythe. It's like two issues I've had with the 7th season, things I thought were weaknesses, just suddenly make more sense in the larger arc to me now. Cool! Other cool things that just really struck me when watching these eps? * Buffy's first speech, the one at the end of BOTN, when she's all "I'm standing on the mouth of hell, and it is gonna swallow me whole. . . . And it'll choke on me. We're not ready? They're not ready . . ." and so on? It's her St. Crispin's Day speech! The one that, as Spike pointed out, she didn't give when going after Glory! I love how Joss makes us really feel how noble and truly stirring this speech is. But he also uses the rest of the season to tell us that a leader needs to be more than inspirational and even lets us mock the speechifying too. * TFE, in the image of Eve the dead potential, actually gives us a hint at what Buffy's ultimate plan will be. When they're talking about how there are 2 slayers (nice parallel to what Giles and Anya are learning from the Eye, by the by), she says it wouldn't help them, "no matter how many there are". * Once again, I was struck by how many examples of eyes and the loss of eyes we got in this season - leading up to Xander's eye. In Showtime, we not only got the Eye of Beljoxa, but also the changing point in Buffy's fight with the uber-vamp is when she takes out one of its eyes. Whew!! So good to get all those bubbling thoughts out of my head! Feel free to chime in with other ideas, take up oposing points, etc. etc. Or, you know, just scroll on by all my tl;dr. ;D P.S. By the by, the whole "torture the unbreathing vamp by holding his head under water" still seems goofy to me. |
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Post by Karen on Jan 6, 2008 9:27:11 GMT -5
Figured I'd post this on both the BOTN and the Showtime threads, since I had these thoughts after watching both of them. _______________________ So, I was watching the Buffy eps on FX this weekend ( Bring on the Night and Showtime) and had some thoughts about season 7. BtVS never had a defined "head of the supernatural good guys" like AtS had in TPTB. But we have seen someone intervene against TFE before, and in a supernatural way. The snow that falls and saves Angel. So, if you think about it, we've been shown all along that generally, both the ultimate good and ultimate evil stay out of things - they strive for balance, generally, and let the humans and demons fight it out in an individualized way. But each can sometimes go too far and throw the balance out of whack and then the other will step in more than they usually would. As I mentioned on the main board, I love this observation, Lola. Good thinky thoughts all, but this one especially struck me as being insightful. Especially in light of why Fray was called later on after a long while when the Slayer wasn't needed because the demons had been banished and a balance had been restored. Of course, the why she had been called had a lot to do with her own twin brother. Which in itself is a little bit of a metaphor for the whole being unbalanced when one side gets too much power. Sometimes the ptb's intervene - and does that also happen on an individual basis? Hmmm.......I guess you have to recognize when something is trying to restore balance within yourself. Is there such a thing as being 'too good', tho? Huh...must be Sunday. |
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