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Post by William the Bloody on Jun 6, 2003 3:59:54 GMT -5
Let the discussion begin!
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Alexandra
S'cubie
Founder
"You never had it so good as me. Never."
Posts: 108
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Post by Alexandra on Jun 8, 2003 23:10:16 GMT -5
I watched "Harsh Light of Day" today and noticed that Spike puts on an amulet that he thinks is the Gem of Amara. He stands there waiting to feel different. He finally puts out his arms just like he does seasons later in the Season 7 finale when he is wearing the Wolfram and Hart amulet that focuses sunlight (thru his soul?) which destroys all the Turok Han vampires. In even more foreshadowing, Harmony natters on, saying, "Is it doing it? Do you feel it? I thought maybe you'd look taller or glow or something." When Spike wore the W&H amulet, he certainly stood taller spiritually, and he really did glow. Was this foreshadowing of the finale, or did the writers fashion the finale after a bit of "Harsh Light of Day?" Was it all pure coincidence? Or were the writers having a bit of fun with the fans? In any case, while the Gem of Amara turned out to be worth a great deal to any vampire who owned it, the Wolfram and Hart amulet has turned out to be of infinitely more value to Spike. It has gotten him onto another series.  |
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Post by SpringSummers on Jun 9, 2003 7:32:07 GMT -5
I watched "Harsh Light of Day" today and noticed that Spike puts on an amulet that he thinks is the Gem of Amara. He stands there waiting to feel different. He finally puts out his arms just like he does seasons later in the Season 7 finale when he is wearing the Wolfram and Hart amulet that focuses sunlight (thru his soul?) which destroys all the Turok Han vampires. In even more foreshadowing, Harmony natters on, saying, "Is it doing it? Do you feel it? I thought maybe you'd look taller or glow or something." When Spike wore the W&H amulet, he certainly stood taller spiritually, and he really did glow. Was this foreshadowing of the finale, or did the writers fashion the finale after a bit of "Harsh Light of Day?" Was it all pure coincidence? Or were the writers having a bit of fun with the fans? In any case, while the Gem of Amara turned out to be worth a great deal to any vampire who owned it, the Wolfram and Hart amulet has turned out to be of infinitely more value to Spike. It has gotten him onto another series. Alexandra - I'd say there is no way this is coincidence. It's hard to know if this scene was set up with Spike's glowing good-bye already in mind, or if they decided on the glowing amulet thinking it would make a nice connection to The Harsh Light of Day. My guess would be the former, actually. The Harsh Light of Day is SUCH a set-up episode, definitely foreshadowing Season 6 events, so why not Season 7? |
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Alexandra
S'cubie
Founder
"You never had it so good as me. Never."
Posts: 108
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Post by Alexandra on Jun 10, 2003 12:00:58 GMT -5
Spring - After thinking this over, I'm disagreeing about Season 7's finale with Spike and the amulet being consciously set up in Season 4. I know this type of foreshadowing has been done at times, but in this case, BtVS thought they might end with Season 5 where Buffy swandives off the tower. The next two seasons were probably envisioned somewhat , but I'm not so sure the foreshadowing was so detailed and intricate for seasons that might never have been. So says Alexandra, who can't envision her way out of a crypt with the door open. ======================================= Alexandra - I'd say there is no way this is coincidence. It's hard to know if this scene was set up with Spike's glowing good-bye already in mind, or if they decided on the glowing amulet thinking it would make a nice connection to The Harsh Light of Day. My guess would be the former, actually. The Harsh Light of Day is SUCH a set-up episode, definitely foreshadowing Season 6 events, so why not Season 7? |
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Post by SpringSummers on Jun 10, 2003 15:02:54 GMT -5
Spring - After thinking this over, I'm disagreeing about Season 7's finale with Spike and the amulet being consciously set up in Season 4. I know this type of foreshadowing has been done at times, but in this case, BtVS thought they might end with Season 5 where Buffy swandives off the tower. The next two seasons were probably envisioned somewhat , but I'm not so sure the foreshadowing was so detailed and intricate for seasons that might never have been. So says Alexandra, who can't envision her way out of a crypt with the door open. ======================================= You make a good point about the foreshadowing seeming a little too detailed and intricate. I go back and forth on whether it was "pre-foreshadowed" or the writers "went back and used it." Harsh Light and Something Blue definitely foreshadowed Season 6 - and I can believe that it was deliberate, even if the writers knew that Season 6 MIGHT not happen. I think we always get a fair amount of "set-up" that the writers end-up using - or not using. Here is the thing about that amulet - I wondered about that bit when I saw it; I mean, I wondered what it was about. It seemed fairly pointless, and nothing in the eps is ever pointless. I don't mention it in my analysis, because at the time, I couldn't understand what "Spike at first misidentifying The Gem as an amulet"" had to do with either any of the episode themes, or its foreshadowing aspects. It really bugged me, and I spent some time thinking about it, because anything that gets that much attention/screen time I can usually relate to either a major theme, or to some foreshadowing aspect of the ep. I don't mention every line or every scene, but the truth is, once I've found the thread - the major themes, the major foreshadowing - I find that just about every scene and every line relates in some way. But I couldn't make that "amulet" scene fit. Hence my feeling that it was deliberate from the get-go. Of course, it could also definitely be that it fit in some other way, or it was truly a "throw away" bit, that got rescued from the trash pile in Season 7. |
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Post by SpringSummers on Jun 12, 2003 7:49:56 GMT -5
I watched Harsh Light of Day for the first time on my new DVD. I had never seen the unedited version. I noticed that in it, we actually see the head of Spike's jackhammer breaking through the floor of the crypt where the gem is. It's a real "train through the tunnel" shot. And right after this shot, where Spike is on his back using that jackhammer, we cut to a shot of Buffy, lying face down on the bed.
This is very early Season 4, and if that ain't deliberate foreshadowing, tellilng us that Joss was thinking even back then of getting these two together for some major sexcapades, then I don't know what is.
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Julie A
S'cubie
Scubie, Founder
Posts: 38
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Post by Julie A on Jun 12, 2003 17:23:09 GMT -5
I think we always get a fair amount of "set-up" that the writers end-up using - or not using. I think I read once in an interview of one of the writers that they do indeed do that. Put stuff in that they think they might want to use later. It makes you wonder what things never panned out. I think in this case (the amulet) that it was backshadowing rather than foreshadowing though. I really wonder though, when it was they decided Spike was going to be on a redemption arc. It almost seems like it could have been planned as far back as season 2, but we know he was really supposed to be a throwaway character. I don't think it really matters whether the writers planned it from the beginning though. I've always been of the opinion that what the audience perceives as the writer's intentions is what really counts. It may be because I'm a classics major, and I'm used to the authors I read being dead dead dead, and not having the slightest bit of information about their lives that isn't actually gotten from their works. I'm so excited to see all of these discussions... I made an off-hand suggestion awhile ago, that I didn't think anyone would even see, that a spikecentricity thread would be cool, then I got way too invovled in real life and I came back and there are all these threads... it's very exciting. |
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Post by thelittlestvampire on Dec 5, 2003 15:41:26 GMT -5
I watched Harsh Light of Day for the first time on my new DVD. I had never seen the unedited version. I noticed that in it, we actually see the head of Spike's jackhammer breaking through the floor of the crypt where the gem is. It's a real "train through the tunnel" shot. And right after this shot, where Spike is on his back using that jackhammer, we cut to a shot of Buffy, lying face down on the bed. This is very early Season 4, and if that ain't deliberate foreshadowing, tellilng us that Joss was thinking even back then of getting these two together for some major sexcapades, then I don't know what is. I have to go back and watch this ep- but this is a really funny foreshadowing in a way. Firstly Buffy is on top- not suprising, but Spike is also pounding away at a stone wall. Of course in my world, Spike can pound away at whatever he wants!  TLV |
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Post by thelittlestvampire on Dec 5, 2003 17:05:54 GMT -5
Just re-read Spring's review and thinking about Sparmony (can I make that up? I gues I am.) I noticed that ther relationship said a couple things about Spilliam (this is fun!) that I hadn't realized before.
Given that he's so into powerful women, it's interesting he wants so much to be in the alpha male/father figure to his women. He sees Harmony as a siree (what do you call one you have sired?) although he did not actually sire her. He's possibly her first boyfriend. He refers to himself as Daddy to her at least once. We see his desire to be the male protector with buffy in Something Blue. He's a fabulous provider for Dru when she was ill.
I'm suddenly thinking that Buffy's non-acceptance of him as an "alpha male" type is at the core of why their relationship was so deflating at the end. Nobody likes a whipped Spike. (Nobody likes a deflated Spike either.)
TLV, Spike can be my Daddy any day
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Post by SpringSummers on Dec 5, 2003 22:58:04 GMT -5
Just re-read Spring's review and thinking about Sparmony (can I make that up? I gues I am.) I noticed that ther relationship said a couple things about Spilliam (this is fun!) that I hadn't realized before. Given that he's so into powerful women, it's interesting he wants so much to be in the alpha male/father figure to his women. He sees Harmony as a siree (what do you call one you have sired?) although he did not actually sire her. He's possibly her first boyfriend. He refers to himself as Daddy to her at least once. We see his desire to be the male protector with buffy in Something Blue. He's a fabulous provider for Dru when she was ill. I'm suddenly thinking that Buffy's non-acceptance of him as an "alpha male" type is at the core of why their relationship was so deflating at the end. Nobody likes a whipped Spike. (Nobody likes a deflated Spike either.) TLV, Spike can be my Daddy any day Definitely. A fully-inflated Spike is far better. |
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