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Post by SpringSummers on Jul 29, 2004 5:29:35 GMT -5
Aw, thanks Spring. Regarding the bolded part: I agree with Karen about Joss & JM. They have too much mutual respect for each others' talents for it to go the Cordelia/Charisma route. In a spinoff, due to JM's depth of talent, I believe Spike would go through some pretty horrible and damaging things before his journey's end. But the journey will also be fun, 'cause, hey, it's Spike. I don't think he has completely faced up to his past sins. I don't think his Dru or Buffy issues are really settled. I think he needs to realize that he's being an inferior "Buffy" to Harmony's "Spike." And I would *love* to see what kind of family would center around him. (Andrew, Harmony, maybe Dana the damaged Slayer and someone who will roll their eyes at him every time he does something dumb.) It would be *neat* to see him take responsibility for a family larger than just himself and a lover or a Summers girl. And to see him gain a sense of purpose beyond supportage of someone with a sense of purpose. And I wouldn't mind the occasional visit from Buffy for the testing her done-ness. Oh, and did I mention that this spinoff should take place in Hawaii? ;D Linda, mmm ... Spike on a moonlit beach ... Kinda one-track on the Hawaii thing, there, Linda. However, I must agree with you. Spike on moonlit beach. Time for skinny dipping after midnight, etc. I must also agree with you and Karen - a Spikey-spin-off would be a good thing. |
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Post by SpringSummers on Jul 29, 2004 5:39:40 GMT -5
I've come to the conclusion that Spike isn't meant to believe Buffy when she tells him she loves him, and there's more to it than her cookie-dough status. Here's why: When Riley asks Spike if he thinks he's got a shot with Buffy, Spike says no. Spike to Buffy: I know you'll never love me. Spike to Buffy: It's not love, we both know that (on why she couldn't stake him). During his captivity ( Showtime), Spike chants She will come for me like a mantra. But he doesn't believe she has, even tho' she's standing right in front of him. He thinks she's TFE come to torment him some more. You'd think her pulse, her physical presence, even the scar on her cheek would've clued him in. I'm not sure he really believed it until his hand landed on her shoulder. I agree that believing Buffy loves him isn't something Spike would ever come to easily. But I think of your examples above as being about his insecurities, and they way they obscure things for him, keep him from believing anyone could truly love him, whether they do, or not. Whereas I don't think his "no you don't" at series end has anything to do with his insecurities. I think he's seeing things very clearly in that moment - he's way beyond the insecurities thing - and he's simply seeing Buffy (for the first time) for the imperfect human being that she is. Oh - I agree the "eating freshly baked cookies" thing for Spike is deliberate. It comes right after we learn Angel loves cookie dough ice cream on AtS, in "I Will Remember You." It's not the only reference to IWRY, and I think it is very deliberate. Angel is a cookie-dough fan and eats cookie dough; Spike wants a baked cookie and eats it. Buffy wants desperately to remember her time with Angel, but she can't. She wants desperately to forget her time with Spike, but she can't. It foreshadows what's ahead - Buffy & Spike's relationship will help her let go of her childhood and accept adulthood. |
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Post by LadyDi on Jul 29, 2004 8:51:48 GMT -5
Hi LadyDi! I actually agree with you about the significance of the Something Blue cookie bite. The first time I saw someone mention it (Spring, I think) I went Aha! that makes complete sense: in the Angel crossover episode that precedes it ( I Will Remember You), Angel gets cookie dough ice cream, but then in Something Blue, Spike gets a fully baked cookie. But I also think that Buffy isn't baked yet. Because she didn't follow Spike's heartfelt Touched declaration with one of her own. Because she kissed Angel even after Spike confessed that she gave him the best night of his life. Because she didn't apologize for that kiss, either. I think she *does* love him. But not as much as he loves her. My personal opinion: I don't want them to get together until her love reaches his level. So that *she* tells him "I love who you are, what you do, how you try." without expecting anything back, either. You know, when she's fully *baked*. And Spike has some room for personal growth, too. I don't believe we've yet seen him achieve his full potential as a good (perhaps great) man. Linda, yeah, I'm a Spuffy most of the time. What of it? ;D Well, see, that's just it. Buffy isn't baked yet, but when she is...Spike gets warm, delicious cookie Buffy. It's implied. Returning for a moment to the "I have my pride" exchange, the way I see it Buffy's understanding is limited to Spike having a right to be upset w/her. When he tells her it was all a smokescreen, she is very obviously relieved that he isn't. She's never appologized for her treatment of Spike in s6, but we know he's forgiven her - just as she's forgiven him for the AR. She doesn't appologize for kissing Angel, but she does get kinda defensive about it. Maybe ME's going for the old love means never having to say you're sorry bit. |
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Post by LadyDi on Jul 29, 2004 9:12:27 GMT -5
I agree that believing Buffy loves him isn't something Spike would ever come to easily. But I think of your examples above as being about his insecurities, and they way they obscure things for him, keep him from believing anyone could truly love him, whether they do, or not. Whereas I don't think his "no you don't" at series end has anything to do with his insecurities. I think he's seeing things very clearly in that moment - he's way beyond the insecurities thing - and he's simply seeing Buffy (for the first time) for the imperfect human being that she is. Oh - I agree the "eating freshly baked cookies" thing for Spike is deliberate. It comes right after we learn Angel loves cookie dough ice cream on AtS, in "I Will Remember You." It's not the only reference to IWRY, and I think it is very deliberate. Angel is a cookie-dough fan and eats cookie dough; Spike wants a baked cookie and eats it. Buffy wants desperately to remember her time with Angel, but she can't. She wants desperately to forget her time with Spike, but she can't. It foreshadows what's ahead - Buffy & Spike's relationship will help her let go of her childhood and accept adulthood. I dunno, Spring. He's already told her in Touched he sees her as she really is. Plus, what do we see in Just Rewards? From Spike's POV, we get Buffy's "No. You've done enough...." and the handclasp, w/o the sacred fire. I'm wondering about it's absence. Perhaps it didn't register w/him since he was already starting to burn? Hard to say. Then, in TGiQ, he gives up w/o a fight - very out of character for him. IMO, he's assuming (always a bad thing to do) Andrew spilled the beans and Buffy doesn't care. Since we're agreed that the cookie thing is important, and Buffy still needs to bake, I can't help thinking ME had more in mind, even knowing Buffy would no longer be a regular part of the Jossverse. |
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Post by SpringSummers on Jul 30, 2004 22:32:43 GMT -5
I dunno, Spring. He's already told her in Touched he sees her as she really is. Plus, what do we see in Just Rewards? From Spike's POV, we get Buffy's "No. You've done enough...." and the handclasp, w/o the sacred fire. I'm wondering about it's absence. Perhaps it didn't register w/him since he was already starting to burn? Hard to say. I thought the absence was simply about keeping it short and simple and uncomplicated for AtS viewers - I mean, not showing anything that wasn't necessary for understanding the ep that followed. If you hadn't seen Chosen in its entirety, or maybe didn't watch BtVS that much, showing all of that final exchange would have just been confusing. I didn't think it was meant to be Spike's POV, or showing us Spike's memories. TGiQ - Someday, I will rewatch it. I watched it just once with half an eye because - well, it was just plain boring to me. So I'm not the best person to comment on it. But I did get the feeling in Season 5 AtS that ultimately, Spike wants some time to himself. You mean that showing Spike eating the freshly baked cookie implies that once Buffy has baked, Spike will be the one she ends up with? That's a logical conclusion from that scene. Not sure it all adds up that way when you think about it all from start to finish, though. |
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Post by LadyDi on Aug 2, 2004 0:17:23 GMT -5
I thought the absence was simply about keeping it short and simple and uncomplicated for AtS viewers - I mean, not showing anything that wasn't necessary for understanding the ep that followed. If you hadn't seen Chosen in its entirety, or maybe didn't watch BtVS that much, showing all of that final exchange would have just been confusing. I didn't think it was meant to be Spike's POV, or showing us Spike's memories. I think it was Nan who suggested in her review of Just Rewards that we were seeing the scene from Spike's POV. It made sense to me. The last thing Spike remembers is being in the Hellmouth with Buffy. Next thing he knows, he's in some strange place and there's Angel.TGiQ - Someday, I will rewatch it. I watched it just once with half an eye because - well, it was just plain boring to me. So I'm not the best person to comment on it. But I did get the feeling in Season 5 AtS that ultimately, Spike wants some time to himself. I don't mind Spike getting to know himself better, honestly. Buffy even tells him, "You don't even know you." I just don't like the idea that since Buffy's gotten what she needs from him, she's free to go Tra-la-la on her merry way. It smacks too much of the using.You mean that showing Spike eating the freshly baked cookie implies that once Buffy has baked, Spike will be the one she ends up with? That's a logical conclusion from that scene. Not sure it all adds up that way when you think about it all from start to finish, though. Believe me, I'm not the only one who's made this connection. Angel's had cookie dough, and he's had cookie dough Buffy, but he hasn't had any cookies. Spike's had a cookie, but he hasn't had cookie Buffy yet. I don't know. It's just that btwn the cookie (and what it might imply), and the fiery handclasp (shared only by Buffy and Spike - she's kissed Angel before, and stinky Parker, and Riley, and Spike), there's something more here. Looking at how much set up went into Buffy and Spike, and how important the relationship was to both parties, are they just gonna throw that away? AtS s5 offered a series of events designed to keep Spike from going after Buffy. Plus, when he said in TGiQ "it's over," that was her cue to show up in L.A. I know she'll never be a regular part of the Jossverse again, but just a renewal of their connection would be enough at this point. |
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Post by SpringSummers on Aug 2, 2004 6:20:31 GMT -5
I think it was Nan who suggested in her review of Just Rewards that we were seeing the scene from Spike's POV. It made sense to me. The last thing Spike remembers is being in the Hellmouth with Buffy. Next thing he knows, he's in some strange place and there's Angel. I can't remember who suggested the idea, but I do remember it being discussed on the board. But there was nothing in the ep itself to support the idea that the flashback is "Spike's memory", that I could see. It just seemed like some "explanation" for the viewer who might not have seen Chosen and in that context, it makes perfect sense that we don't see things that will just confuse those viewers. There was just nothing about that scene that suggested, to me, it was connected to Spike's memories, and everything about it that suggested it was about giving the minimally required info to non BtVS viewers. Both Buffy & Spike got what they needed from each other. Buffy may not have been perfect about it (and Spike was far from perfect also) but in the end she came through for him 100%, and it included risking life and limb to save him. They are both definitely free to go on their merry way if that is what they want to do. They don't owe each other anything. I agree with the connection and think it is deliberate and obvious. But the foreshadowing can't come to fruition. I think if we had had a Season 8 Buffy, which Joss, I think would have been willing to do if SMG was, then the answer would be NO, you can see from the foreshadowing that it wasn't going to just be thrown away. But we didn't get a Season 8 Buffy, so - it has to be thrown away. We might see that. But we might not. And personally, I would love to see them both move on. I think that is where we would have ultimately headed, if we had had, say, 15 Seasons of Buffy. I think the foreshadowing suggested that Spike & Buffy would get together again in more fully baked versions of themselves, but that continued baking would have required separation, for both. |
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Post by fredspuffed on Sept 3, 2004 8:02:01 GMT -5
Could Buffy and Spike be twin flames?
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