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Post by Techno-bot on Jun 14, 2004 22:42:30 GMT -5
Written by Joss Whedon Directed by Joss Whedon Air date:5/20/03
Buffy defeats the First.
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Post by LadyDi on Jul 24, 2004 13:19:07 GMT -5
Something occurred to me on my last viewing, and I wondered if anyone else saw it the same way. When Buffy and Spike are sharing his cot the night before the big battle, she's stroking his arm and he rolls away from her. Can we interpret this to mean she wants to do more than cuddle, but Spike is not so inclined? I can imagine a few reasons why Spike might not be (or maybe he's really just asleep). I posted this question on the main thread, but only got one response (thanks, Matthew), so I thought this might be a better place for it.
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Post by SpringSummers on Jul 24, 2004 17:13:08 GMT -5
Something occurred to me on my last viewing, and I wondered if anyone else saw it the same way. When Buffy and Spike are sharing his cot the night before the big battle, she's stroking his arm and he rolls away from her. Can we interpret this to mean she wants to do more than cuddle, but Spike is not so inclined? I can imagine a few reasons why Spike might not be (or maybe he's really just asleep). I posted this question on the main thread, but only got one response (thanks, Matthew), so I thought this might be a better place for it. I haven't seen that scene for awhile. I remember the feeling that Buffy couldn't sleep and was contemplative, and that Spike was asleep. I guess that is not much of an answer. When I'm trying to understand a scene like that I try to put myself in the character's shoes - if I was stroking a sleeping man's arm like that, in the middle of the night while he was asleep, I don't think I'd be doing it to initiate sex. When I've done something like that, it's been more about feeling and providing love, comfort and safety. It's been because I was feeling contemplative about the relationship and/or my life in general. It's a very intimate thing to do, but - in my mind at least - not so much a sexual thing to do.
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Post by Linda on Jul 25, 2004 1:11:26 GMT -5
Something occurred to me on my last viewing, and I wondered if anyone else saw it the same way. When Buffy and Spike are sharing his cot the night before the big battle, she's stroking his arm and he rolls away from her. Can we interpret this to mean she wants to do more than cuddle, but Spike is not so inclined? I can imagine a few reasons why Spike might not be (or maybe he's really just asleep). I posted this question on the main thread, but only got one response (thanks, Matthew), so I thought this might be a better place for it. Hi LadyDi! Were you perhaps asking whether or not there was a symbolic or subconscious reason for Spike's turning away? I've got a theory... I think Spike has some unresolved Buffy/anger issues. The night before the cuddle, Spike offered up his soul-felt, freely-given, expect-nothing-back love for her. And then they touched -- connected and Spike had the best night of this life. He reluctantly confessed the latter fact only a few hours ago. And then what did he see? His worst nightmare: Buffy/Angel snoggage. And what would the "Angel-breath" incident feel like except another rejection, this time of his soul-felt offering? Yes, they re-connected that night in the basement, but only because he was clearly willing to let the issue go, since Buffy was ready to take him at his word on "the whole having my pride thing." I don’t believe he expressed any sort of rage to her, because it would not have seemed important enough in light of the approaching apocalypse and perhaps out of his fear of losing whatever part of her was there with him. I really do believe that their last exchange in the Hellmouth was complete & soul-deep. However, I think it was also ephemeral. What happens after that? Past emotional issues come in to play when the relationship must move beyond a single moment. Throughout the course of this season of Angel, Spike worked out just about all of his Angel issues, as is demonstrated by their non-lethal fighting and snarking and mutual supportage in The Girl in Question. Spike’s issues with Buffy, herself, well, to me that seems like something that he’s still repressing. His anger against Angel was powerful. How can he not feel anger towards Buffy? He is part demon, after all. To me, one of the most telling indicators was that he didn't mention a Buffy-inspired poem during the "last day" sequence of Not Fade Away. All signs point to him having his Cecily & his Mum issues resolved, since he was happy to reveal them to the audience (and shout it out to W&H in general back in Destiny and even Lineage. ) For someone so talky, he never seemed willing to talk about Buffy, though. (Except to irritate Angel.) This is the only explanation that makes sense to me regarding his consistent Buffy-avoidance and the "unweebliness" of his behavior on this point. If there ever were a Spike spin-off series (hope, hope, hope), I think there will be as much Buffy-related relationship wreckage subtext in it as there is Angel-relationship wreckage subtext in BtVS (as Spring so insightfully points out in her Spikecentricity analyses.) Of course, this is all speculation on my part. Assume the IMO. Linda, it's been too long since I brought up Spike, P.I. in Hawaii spinoff idea ... mmmm Spike on a moonlit beach mmmm...
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Post by LadyDi on Jul 26, 2004 8:59:34 GMT -5
I haven't seen that scene for awhile. I remember the feeling that Buffy couldn't sleep and was contemplative, and that Spike was asleep. I guess that is not much of an answer. When I'm trying to understand a scene like that I try to put myself in the character's shoes - if I was stroking a sleeping man's arm like that, in the middle of the night while he was asleep, I don't think I'd be doing it to initiate sex. When I've done something like that, it's been more about feeling and providing love, comfort and safety. It's been because I was feeling contemplative about the relationship and/or my life in general. It's a very intimate thing to do, but - in my mind at least - not so much a sexual thing to do. Since this will (most likely) remain purely speculation, I just thought I'd look for other opinions. Spike could be asleep, or he might be faking it. Still, you're probably right. Buffy isn't big w/the contemplation, but that would definitely be the time for it.
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Post by LadyDi on Jul 26, 2004 9:03:28 GMT -5
Hi LadyDi! Were you perhaps asking whether or not there was a symbolic or subconscious reason for Spike's turning away? I've got a theory... I think Spike has some unresolved Buffy/anger issues. The night before the cuddle, Spike offered up his soul-felt, freely-given, expect-nothing-back love for her. And then they touched -- connected and Spike had the best night of this life. He reluctantly confessed the latter fact only a few hours ago. And then what did he see? His worst nightmare: Buffy/Angel snoggage. And what would the "Angel-breath" incident feel like except another rejection, this time of his soul-felt offering? Yes, they re-connected that night in the basement, but only because he was clearly willing to let the issue go, since Buffy was ready to take him at his word on "the whole having my pride thing." I don’t believe he expressed any sort of rage to her, because it would not have seemed important enough in light of the approaching apocalypse and perhaps out of his fear of losing whatever part of her was there with him. I really do believe that their last exchange in the Hellmouth was complete & soul-deep. However, I think it was also ephemeral. What happens after that? Past emotional issues come in to play when the relationship must move beyond a single moment. Throughout the course of this season of Angel, Spike worked out just about all of his Angel issues, as is demonstrated by their non-lethal fighting and snarking and mutual supportage in The Girl in Question. Spike’s issues with Buffy, herself, well, to me that seems like something that he’s still repressing. His anger against Angel was powerful. How can he not feel anger towards Buffy? He is part demon, after all. To me, one of the most telling indicators was that he didn't mention a Buffy-inspired poem during the "last day" sequence of Not Fade Away. All signs point to him having his Cecily & his Mum issues resolved, since he was happy to reveal them to the audience (and shout it out to W&H in general back in Destiny and even Lineage. ) For someone so talky, he never seemed willing to talk about Buffy, though. (Except to irritate Angel.) This is the only explanation that makes sense to me regarding his consistent Buffy-avoidance and the "unweebliness" of his behavior on this point. If there ever were a Spike spin-off series (hope, hope, hope), I think there will be as much Buffy-related relationship wreckage subtext in it as there is Angel-relationship wreckage subtext in BtVS (as Spring so insightfully points out in her Spikecentricity analyses.) Of course, this is all speculation on my part. Assume the IMO. Linda, it's been too long since I brought up Spike, P.I. in Hawaii spinoff idea ... mmmm Spike on a moonlit beach mmmm... Arrgh! After all this time, I still haven't figured out the serial quote thing. V. disappointed in self for the lapse. Yes, figured Angel kissage could be one reason why Spike might turn away from such an offer (if such an offer was even being proferred). Lingering guilt over the AR another possibility. Just something I hadn't really considered before, and wondered about. As for Spike, I don't really think he has any serious Buffy anger issues (Angel's face on the punching bag, after all). He said he didn't expect anything from her, and he meant it. Also, he was in a different place w/Buffy than Buffy was with Angel. Angel was her first heartache, and her issues with men stemmed from that first great betrayal/loss. I think Spike's issues with women really came from Cecily and his mum (not Buffy), hence their inclusion in his perfect day. The poem he dedicated to Cecily was the same one he'd written as William. It was more a way of representing the full integration of his William-ness (IMO). I think if he'd had his druthers, he'd have spent his perfect day w/Buffy.
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Post by Linda on Jul 27, 2004 5:10:02 GMT -5
Arrgh! After all this time, I still haven't figured out the serial quote thing. V. disappointed in self for the lapse. Yes, figured Angel kissage could be one reason why Spike might turn away from such an offer (if such an offer was even being proferred). Lingering guilt over the AR another possibility. Just something I hadn't really considered before, and wondered about. As for Spike, I don't really think he has any serious Buffy anger issues (Angel's face on the punching bag, after all). He said he didn't expect anything from her, and he meant it. Also, he was in a different place w/Buffy than Buffy was with Angel. Angel was her first heartache, and her issues with men stemmed from that first great betrayal/loss. I think Spike's issues with women really came from Cecily and his mum (not Buffy), hence their inclusion in his perfect day. The poem he dedicated to Cecily was the same one he'd written as William. It was more a way of representing the full integration of his William-ness (IMO). I think if he'd had his druthers, he'd have spent his perfect day w/Buffy. I see your point. I would be inclined to agree with you about Spike's issues except for the way events played out in AtS Season Five. Spike had a **lot** of Angel issues, most of them having absolutely nothing to do with Buffy. He would have had no problem transferring any anger he felt toward Buffy onto Angel. However, during their extended, brutal Truth-fight, in Destiny, it was only when the subject of Buffy was raised that the fight became vamp-deadly -- complete with stakes. But once his Angel issues were cleared up over the course of Season Five, I believe he still had Buffy issues remaining. After all, Angel didn't force Buffy to kiss him. It was her choice. I really, really do believe that all the BtVS Season Six issues, including Buffy's mistreatment and Spike's attempted rape were settled and forgiven between them. At least, that's how I read their beautiful scene in Touched. When he told her that he loved her and *why* he loved her, I agree that he expected nothing in return. Because he didn't expect forgiveness for what he had done to her. He could only demonstrate to her (for the rest of his life if necessary) that he had changed. But then the near-impossible happened and Buffy in return, demonstrated that she had forgiven him. And even further, *trusted* him in every sense, not just to watch her back in a fight. After that, I consider their relationship to be something new. And fragile, as Spike's uncharacteristic reluctance to express his feelings about it indicates to me. So what happens at the beginning of their new relationship? She leaves him alone in bed the next morning. He understands, but it leads to his attempt to minimize what happened ("A bit of cold comfort from the cellar dweller.") Thanks to Buffy's insistence, they actually talk about what that night meant to each of them. I believe he ends up with the impression that it meant more to him than it did to her: "The strength you gave me," vs. "It was the best night of my life." This impression would have been confirmed in his mind by seeing the Buffy / Angel-kissage. This is so much more hurtful than finding himself alone that morning. Is it too early into this phase of their new relationship for the Angel kiss to be considered disloyal (if not a betrayal of an implied trust) on Buffy's part? Or perhaps more relevantly here: Is it too early into this phase of their relationship for it to feel like a betrayal to Spike? Buffy obliquely acknowledged this by being willing to leave him alone when he said "you can't just whack me back and forth like a rubber ball. I've got my pride, you know." In the Jossverse, self-esteem is something that a character **needs** in order to make the best personal decisions. Especially relationship decisions. For example, its lack is one of the main reasons that Buffy & the Scoobies go off the deep end in Season Six. And (to me) it's something that's been lacking in Spike's long life, too. Spike voluntarily let go of his pride in order to keep Buffy in the basement with him. Perfectly understandable in the face of an impending apocalypse. But not the wisest decision for the long term. Not for a relationship of equals. In retrospect, it strikes me as "unequal" that Buffy was willing to take Spike at his word about "the whole having my pride thing" rather than apologize and attempt to show him that he meant more to her than he thought. Especially since she knew that she hurt him. I take it as a sign of her cookie doughness. I'm increasingly of the opinion that the main reason Spike makes almost no onscreen attempt to contact Buffy during this season of Angel is his reluctance to enter (or re-enter) another unequal relationship. To be the one who makes all of the consessions whenever a disagreement or transgression arises. (Side note: I choose to believe that The Girl in Question demonstrates jealousy & feelings of inadequacy are *not* good enough reasons to make contact with the woman you love.) I believe that his "perfect day" *could* have had a Buffy component if he'd tried to call her. But I actually think that the poetry slam was more important to his personal growth and self-esteem. Come to think of it, this may be a deliberate Joss-sign that one year later, faced with another Apocalypse, Spike chooses the pride thing over cookie-dough-Buffy. Which I take as a promising sign for the equality of any future relationship that they enter into. Because I live in Erinland, with riverfront property on the lovely shores of De Nial. And there is a future for Spike. And Buffy. Linda, thinking about this way too much...because it's sooo much fun. ;D
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Post by SpringSummers on Jul 27, 2004 5:34:41 GMT -5
I see your point. I would be inclined to agree with you about Spike's issues except for the way events played out in AtS Season Five. Spike had a **lot** of Angel issues, most of them having absolutely nothing to do with Buffy. He would have had no problem transferring any anger he felt toward Buffy onto Angel. However, during their extended, brutal Truth-fight, in Destiny, it was only when the subject of Buffy was raised that the fight became vamp-deadly -- complete with stakes. But once his Angel issues were cleared up over the course of Season Five, I believe he still had Buffy issues remaining. After all, Angel didn't force Buffy to kiss him. It was her choice. I really, really do believe that all the BtVS Season Six issues, including Buffy's mistreatment and Spike's attempted rape were settled and forgiven between them. At least, that's how I read their beautiful scene in Touched. When he told her that he loved her and *why* he loved her, I agree that he expected nothing in return. Because he didn't expect forgiveness for what he had done to her. He could only demonstrate to her (for the rest of his life if necessary) that he had changed. But then the near-impossible happened and Buffy in return, demonstrated that she had forgiven him. And even further, *trusted* him in every sense, not just to watch her back in a fight. After that, I consider their relationship to be something new. And fragile, as Spike's uncharacteristic reluctance to express his feelings about it indicates to me. So what happens at the beginning of their new relationship? She leaves him alone in bed the next morning. He understands, but it leads to his attempt to minimize what happened ("A bit of cold comfort from the cellar dweller.") Thanks to Buffy's insistence, they actually talk about what that night meant to each of them. I believe he ends up with the impression that it meant more to him than it did to her: "The strength you gave me," vs. "It was the best night of my life." This impression would have been confirmed in his mind by seeing the Buffy / Angel-kissage. This is so much more hurtful than finding himself alone that morning. Is it too early into this phase of their new relationship for the Angel kiss to be considered disloyal (if not a betrayal of an implied trust) on Buffy's part? Or perhaps more relevantly here: Is it too early into this phase of their relationship for it to feel like a betrayal to Spike? Buffy obliquely acknowledged this by being willing to leave him alone when he said "you can't just whack me back and forth like a rubber ball. I've got my pride, you know." In the Jossverse, self-esteem is something that a character **needs** in order to make the best personal decisions. Especially relationship decisions. For example, its lack is one of the main reasons that Buffy & the Scoobies go off the deep end in Season Six. And (to me) it's something that's been lacking in Spike's long life, too. Spike voluntarily let go of his pride in order to keep Buffy in the basement with him. Perfectly understandable in the face of an impending apocalypse. But not the wisest decision for the long term. Not for a relationship of equals. In retrospect, it strikes me as "unequal" that Buffy was willing to take Spike at his word about "the whole having my pride thing" rather than apologize and attempt to show him that he meant more to her than he thought. Especially since she knew that she hurt him. I take it as a sign of her cookie doughness. I'm increasingly of the opinion that the main reason Spike makes almost no onscreen attempt to contact Buffy during this season of Angel is his reluctance to enter (or re-enter) another unequal relationship. To be the one who makes all of the consessions whenever a disagreement or transgression arises. (Side note: I choose to believe that The Girl in Question demonstrates jealousy & feelings of inadequacy are *not* good enough reasons to make contact with the woman you love.) I believe that his "perfect day" *could* have had a Buffy component if he'd tried to call her. But I actually think that the poetry slam was more important to his personal growth and self-esteem. Come to think of it, this may be a deliberate Joss-sign that one year later, faced with another Apocalypse, Spike chooses the pride thing over cookie-dough-Buffy. Which I take as a promising sign for the equality of any future relationship that they enter into. Because I live in Erinland, with riverfront property on the lovely shores of De Nial. And there is a future for Spike. And Buffy. Linda, thinking about this way too much...because it's sooo much fun. ;D Well said. And I agree. Buffy meant it when she told Spike she loved him, but she also meant it when she told Angel she was cookie dough and she didn't really know what she wanted or where she'd end up when she was "baked." Spike really understood this in the end, and his actions in Season 5 AtS are a continuation of what he started by telling an obviously sincere Buffy that "no" she didn't love him. I agree that Spike's perfect day was exactly what he wanted and needed it to be at that moment. And it surprised me by also being exactly what I wanted to see for him. No Buffy, nothing to do with Buffy - just Spike accepting himself and finding acceptance. Most of me would love to see a Spikey-spin-off that could take this to the next level, though part of me is scared that the character could somehow "get ruined" the way Cordelia was, and I would hate to see that. So I struggle between "do I want them to leave well enough alone?" Or do I want to take a chance on seeing Spike's progression play out?
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Post by Karen on Jul 27, 2004 8:39:46 GMT -5
Well said. And I agree. Buffy meant it when she told Spike she loved him, but she also meant it when she told Angel she was cookie dough and she didn't really know what she wanted or where she'd end up when she was "baked." Spike really understood this in the end, and his actions in Season 5 AtS are a continuation of what he started by telling an obviously sincere Buffy that "no" she didn't love him. I agree that Spike's perfect day was exactly what he wanted and needed it to be at that moment. And it surprised me by also being exactly what I wanted to see for him. No Buffy, nothing to do with Buffy - just Spike accepting himself and finding acceptance. Most of me would love to see a Spikey-spin-off that could take this to the next level, though part of me is scared that the character could somehow "get ruined" the way Cordelia was, and I would hate to see that. So I struggle between "do I want them to leave well enough alone?" Or do I want to take a chance on seeing Spike's progression play out? Oh, you know you'd want to see the progression. Because - more JM. I think with him as the lead character, they'd be more careful with his characterization. Plus, Joss, I think, loves JM. And I'd love to see it. I would want Joss to surprise me again. For good or bad - he does surprises - like life surprises you.
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Post by Karen on Jul 27, 2004 9:15:38 GMT -5
Something occurred to me on my last viewing, and I wondered if anyone else saw it the same way. When Buffy and Spike are sharing his cot the night before the big battle, she's stroking his arm and he rolls away from her. Can we interpret this to mean she wants to do more than cuddle, but Spike is not so inclined? I can imagine a few reasons why Spike might not be (or maybe he's really just asleep). I posted this question on the main thread, but only got one response (thanks, Matthew), so I thought this might be a better place for it. Hi LadyDi! I also posted a reply to your musings - it was in conjunction to a reply that Julia made. I hope she doesn't mind me reposting. on Jul 22nd, 2004, 09:14am, Julia wrote: Cot scene is penultimate night before the battle; Buffy is stroking a deeply sleeping Spike, and he rolls a bit away from her (away is a very relative thing on an Army cot, and I personally have found it wise to not over interperet the physical actions of people in deep sleep). Then comes the conversation with TFE!Caleb who morphs into TFE!Buffy, who inadvertantly inspires Buffy to one of her intuitive leaps; Spike mutters "I'm drowning in footwear" and wakes up. Then there's the whole intimation of Buffy's plan in daylight "Nice girl, not too bright"... Spike sitting in basement contemplating the amulet, Buffy on the porch at Revello Drive being thoughtful, then Buffy at the foot of the basement stairs, Spike looks up, stands, blackout. Think maybe I've watched the first 50 minutes of "Chosen" a few too many times? Julia, maybee... And then I saidAh, thanks for the memory jog, Julia. I've only seen it a couple of times. I think that Buffy stroked Spike's arm in reflection of the night they just spent together...and that they did actually *spend the night together*..but that's just me. I do think (and I'm liable to change my mind on this in the future) that even though they slept together, and Buffy told Spike that she loved him, in the end.... that he was correct in feeling that she didn't really love him - not in the way he wanted her to. My feeling on this has something to do with what Spike heard and saw between Buffy and Angel. But I have to really rewatch "Chosen" before I think further on this. Thinking further, I totally agree with Linda. Spike must have been very hurt and upset after seeing Angel and Buffy greet each other so passionately. And he didn't hear Buffy's cookie-dough speech. And all I want to do is {{Spike}} when I think of it. So what do you think?
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Post by SpringSummers on Jul 27, 2004 11:33:46 GMT -5
Hi LadyDi! I also posted a reply to your musings - it was in conjunction to a reply that Julia made. I hope she doesn't mind me reposting. on Jul 22nd, 2004, 09:14am, Julia wrote: Cot scene is penultimate night before the battle; Buffy is stroking a deeply sleeping Spike, and he rolls a bit away from her (away is a very relative thing on an Army cot, and I personally have found it wise to not over interperet the physical actions of people in deep sleep). Then comes the conversation with TFE!Caleb who morphs into TFE!Buffy, who inadvertantly inspires Buffy to one of her intuitive leaps; Spike mutters "I'm drowning in footwear" and wakes up. Then there's the whole intimation of Buffy's plan in daylight "Nice girl, not too bright"... Spike sitting in basement contemplating the amulet, Buffy on the porch at Revello Drive being thoughtful, then Buffy at the foot of the basement stairs, Spike looks up, stands, blackout. Think maybe I've watched the first 50 minutes of "Chosen" a few too many times? Julia, maybee... And then I saidAh, thanks for the memory jog, Julia. I've only seen it a couple of times. I think that Buffy stroked Spike's arm in reflection of the night they just spent together...and that they did actually *spend the night together*..but that's just me. I do think (and I'm liable to change my mind on this in the future) that even though they slept together, and Buffy told Spike that she loved him, in the end.... that he was correct in feeling that she didn't really love him - not in the way he wanted her to. My feeling on this has something to do with what Spike heard and saw between Buffy and Angel. But I have to really rewatch "Chosen" before I think further on this. Thinking further, I totally agree with Linda. Spike must have been very hurt and upset after seeing Angel and Buffy greet each other so passionately. And he didn't hear Buffy's cookie-dough speech. And all I want to do is {{Spike}} when I think of it. So what do you think? Ok, so you're not asking me, but here's my thoughts: I think Spike didn't need to hear the cookie dough speech to know the truth of it. And I think he's acknowledging her cookie dough status when he says (to her "I love you") "no you don't." I think Angel is not on his mind at all. I think he knows the truth of what Buffy told Angel - she's cookie dough, and there is only so far cookie dough can love anybody. I don't think Spike is suggesting Buffy isn't being sincere. I think it's a flip of Buffy telling Spike (to his "I love you", essentially) "no you don't" in Crush. She's not saying that Spike isn't being sincere, or that Spike doesn't truly believe that he loves her, or that he doesn't love her as best he can. She's saying that Spike doesn't understand love well enough at that point, to truly love her. And she is right. And Spike says it right back to her, in Chosen, for the same reason. And he is right. He's not thinking about Buffy/Angel kissage while seconds from turning to dust saving the world. He's gleeful and happy and giving into his fate, and he can see it all - and he can see that Buffy needs to bake.
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Post by Karen on Jul 27, 2004 12:49:38 GMT -5
Ok, so you're not asking me, but here's my thoughts: I think Spike didn't need to hear the cookie dough speech to know the truth of it. And I think he's acknowledging her cookie dough status when he says (to her "I love you") "no you don't." I think Angel is not on his mind at all. I think he knows the truth of what Buffy told Angel - she's cookie dough, and there is only so far cookie dough can love anybody. I don't think Spike is suggesting Buffy isn't being sincere. I think it's a flip of Buffy telling Spike (to his "I love you", essentially) "no you don't" in Crush. She's not saying that Spike isn't being sincere, or that Spike doesn't truly believe that he loves her, or that he doesn't love her as best he can. She's saying that Spike doesn't understand love well enough at that point, to truly love her. And she is right. And Spike says it right back to her, in Chosen, for the same reason. And he is right. He's not thinking about Buffy/Angel kissage while seconds from turning to dust saving the world. He's gleeful and happy and giving into his fate, and he can see it all - and he can see that Buffy needs to bake. Yep, and yep. And I agree. Spike, at that point, has accepted his role in wearing the amulet - and gladly. By then, his anger at what he saw between Angel and Buffy has waned - because he understands it, actually. And that's one of the things that makes him realize she needs to bake a little longer. Altho, I think he knew it for a while. Goddess, now I want a cookie.
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Post by LadyDi on Jul 28, 2004 21:01:50 GMT -5
I've come to the conclusion that Spike isn't meant to believe Buffy when she tells him she loves him, and there's more to it than her cookie-dough status. Here's why:
When Riley asks Spike if he thinks he's got a shot with Buffy, Spike says no.
Spike to Buffy: I know you'll never love me.
Spike to Buffy: It's not love, we both know that (on why she couldn't stake him).
During his captivity (Showtime), Spike chants She will come for me like a mantra. But he doesn't believe she has, even tho' she's standing right in front of him. He thinks she's TFE come to torment him some more. You'd think her pulse, her physical presence, even the scar on her cheek would've clued him in. I'm not sure he really believed it until his hand landed on her shoulder.
Honestly, I think there are multiple reasons involved. I definitely agree Spike didn't need to hear the cookie-dough speech. Still, I can't let go of a possible connection to the fact that we've seen Spike eating a cookie (fittingly, at the end of Something Blue). We're talking actual screen time - with a lead-in, and the camera focusing on Spike for the first bite. This isn't some fuzzy background thing. Why else would it be so important?
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Post by Linda on Jul 28, 2004 23:38:15 GMT -5
I've come to the conclusion that Spike isn't meant to believe Buffy when she tells him she loves him, and there's more to it than her cookie-dough status. Here's why: When Riley asks Spike if he thinks he's got a shot with Buffy, Spike says no. Spike to Buffy: I know you'll never love me. Spike to Buffy: It's not love, we both know that (on why she couldn't stake him). During his captivity ( Showtime), Spike chants She will come for me like a mantra. But he doesn't believe she has, even tho' she's standing right in front of him. He thinks she's TFE come to torment him some more. You'd think her pulse, her physical presence, even the scar on her cheek would've clued him in. I'm not sure he really believed it until his hand landed on her shoulder. Honestly, I think there are multiple reasons involved. I definitely agree Spike didn't need to hear the cookie-dough speech. Still, I can't let go of a possible connection to the fact that we've seen Spike eating a cookie (fittingly, at the end of Something Blue). We're talking actual screen time - with a lead-in, and the camera focusing on Spike for the first bite. This isn't some fuzzy background thing. Why else would it be so important? Hi LadyDi! I actually agree with you about the significance of the Something Blue cookie bite. The first time I saw someone mention it (Spring, I think) I went Aha! that makes complete sense: in the Angel crossover episode that precedes it ( I Will Remember You), Angel gets cookie dough ice cream, but then in Something Blue, Spike gets a fully baked cookie. But I also think that Buffy isn't baked yet. Because she didn't follow Spike's heartfelt Touched declaration with one of her own. Because she kissed Angel even after Spike confessed that she gave him the best night of his life. Because she didn't apologize for that kiss, either. I think she *does* love him. But not as much as he loves her. My personal opinion: I don't want them to get together until her love reaches his level. So that *she* tells him "I love who you are, what you do, how you try." without expecting anything back, either. You know, when she's fully *baked*. And Spike has some room for personal growth, too. I don't believe we've yet seen him achieve his full potential as a good (perhaps great) man. Linda, yeah, I'm a Spuffy most of the time. What of it? ;D
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Post by Linda on Jul 29, 2004 0:16:47 GMT -5
Well said. And I agree. Buffy meant it when she told Spike she loved him, but she also meant it when she told Angel she was cookie dough and she didn't really know what she wanted or where she'd end up when she was "baked." Spike really understood this in the end, and his actions in Season 5 AtS are a continuation of what he started by telling an obviously sincere Buffy that "no" she didn't love him. I agree that Spike's perfect day was exactly what he wanted and needed it to be at that moment. And it surprised me by also being exactly what I wanted to see for him. No Buffy, nothing to do with Buffy - just Spike accepting himself and finding acceptance. Most of me would love to see a Spikey-spin-off that could take this to the next level, though part of me is scared that the character could somehow "get ruined" the way Cordelia was, and I would hate to see that.
So I struggle between "do I want them to leave well enough alone?" Or do I want to take a chance on seeing Spike's progression play out?Aw, thanks Spring. Regarding the bolded part: I agree with Karen about Joss & JM. They have too much mutual respect for each others' talents for it to go the Cordelia/Charisma route. In a spinoff, due to JM's depth of talent, I believe Spike would go through some pretty horrible and damaging things before his journey's end. But the journey will also be fun, 'cause, hey, it's Spike. I don't think he has completely faced up to his past sins. I don't think his Dru or Buffy issues are really settled. I think he needs to realize that he's being an inferior "Buffy" to Harmony's "Spike." And I would *love* to see what kind of family would center around him. (Andrew, Harmony, maybe Dana the damaged Slayer and someone who will roll their eyes at him every time he does something dumb.) It would be *neat* to see him take responsibility for a family larger than just himself and a lover or a Summers girl. And to see him gain a sense of purpose beyond supportage of someone with a sense of purpose. And I wouldn't mind the occasional visit from Buffy for the testing her done-ness. Oh, and did I mention that this spinoff should take place in Hawaii? ;D Linda, mmm ... Spike on a moonlit beach ...
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