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Post by Onjel on May 17, 2007 7:41:53 GMT -5
Hey, Since I'm late to the party (as usual), thought I'd sum up... "Great muppity odin, I miss that sex." I REALLY hate this line, for two reasons: 1) Any random string of syllables would make about as much sense as 'great muppity odin', and more importantly, 2) Buffy doesn't miss the provider, just the service. This is so crappy (IMO), I don't know where to begin. Disappointed in Dawn's growing pains being unrelated in any way to Dawn's Keyness. I think there's still a lot that could be done with that. Such a shame Joss just tossed it away. Not an Andrew fan. Also, curious that he's complaining about the only black character in the original Star Wars verse. Racist? No. Just stupid. I thought (hoped) mystery guy would be Spike. An interesting way of having our cake and eating it too. He could be here (in Buffy's dreamscape) while being in L.A. at the same time. Also, thought Buffy's little mindtrip would last longer and be more interesting. I found The Image (you know the one I mean) mildly disturbing. Sorry to poop on the party, but them's the breaks. *******************Possible Spoiler**************** There's talk that Joss is working up to a Bander 'ship. Can't say I'm enthused. Xander's okay (sorry, Rob), but I just don't see him and Buffy together. Spoiler Alert! Possibly spoilerrific reply below!The "great muppity Odin" line just made me giggle. I didn't think it was supposed to make sense, but it strikes me as something Xander would say, ala "merciful Zeus", which brings me to your spoiler line about rumors. I'm with you. I love Xander but don't think I can buy Bander and don't really want to see it happen. I think such a thing would detract from the wonderful supportive friendship they have and possibly damage their working together as such a good team That's mostly my bias about their maturity levels, but hey, even mature people have trouble being together 24/7 in a romantic and working relationship.
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Post by Karen on May 17, 2007 11:08:33 GMT -5
Hey, Since I'm late to the party (as usual), thought I'd sum up... "Great muppity odin, I miss that sex." I REALLY hate this line, for two reasons: 1) Any random string of syllables would make about as much sense as 'great muppity odin', and more importantly, 2) Buffy doesn't miss the provider, just the service. This is so crappy (IMO), I don't know where to begin. Disappointed in Dawn's growing pains being unrelated in any way to Dawn's Keyness. I think there's still a lot that could be done with that. Such a shame Joss just tossed it away. Not an Andrew fan. Also, curious that he's complaining about the only black character in the original Star Wars verse. Racist? No. Just stupid. I thought (hoped) mystery guy would be Spike. An interesting way of having our cake and eating it too. He could be here (in Buffy's dreamscape) while being in L.A. at the same time. Also, thought Buffy's little mindtrip would last longer and be more interesting. I found The Image (you know the one I mean) mildly disturbing. Sorry to poop on the party, but them's the breaks. *******************Possible Spoiler**************** There's talk that Joss is working up to a Bander 'ship. Can't say I'm enthused. Xander's okay (sorry, Rob), but I just don't see him and Buffy together. Spoiler Alert! Possibly spoilerrific reply below!The "great muppity Odin" line just made me giggle. I didn't think it was supposed to make sense, but it strikes me as something Xander would say, ala "merciful Zeus", which brings me to your spoiler line about rumors. I'm with you. I love Xander but don't think I can buy Bander and don't really want to see it happen. I think such a thing would detract from the wonderful supportive friendship they have and possibly damage their working together as such a good team That's mostly my bias about their maturity levels, but hey, even mature people have trouble being together 24/7 in a romantic and working relationship. The Odin reference probably has something to do with the Thricewise that Dawn got hooked up with - all having to do with Norse mythology. whedonesque.com/comments/12866
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Post by Onjel on May 17, 2007 11:58:38 GMT -5
Spoiler Alert! Possibly spoilerrific reply below!The "great muppity Odin" line just made me giggle. I didn't think it was supposed to make sense, but it strikes me as something Xander would say, ala "merciful Zeus", which brings me to your spoiler line about rumors. I'm with you. I love Xander but don't think I can buy Bander and don't really want to see it happen. I think such a thing would detract from the wonderful supportive friendship they have and possibly damage their working together as such a good team That's mostly my bias about their maturity levels, but hey, even mature people have trouble being together 24/7 in a romantic and working relationship. The Odin reference probably has something to do with the Thricewise that Dawn got hooked up with - all having to do with Norse mythology. whedonesque.com/comments/12866 Well, bless my Scandinavian soul! I did not know that! Thanks, Karen! It makes even more sense now. Although, my memory of the story is that Odin's eye was plucked out by a raven (not Loki in disguise, I don't think *aside, not relevant to discussion) in the pursuit of knowledge or some such. I'd never heard of Mimir the Jotun.
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Post by Lola m on May 18, 2007 7:31:11 GMT -5
Spoiler Alert! Possibly spoilerrific reply below!The "great muppity Odin" line just made me giggle. I didn't think it was supposed to make sense, but it strikes me as something Xander would say, ala "merciful Zeus", which brings me to your spoiler line about rumors. I'm with you. I love Xander but don't think I can buy Bander and don't really want to see it happen. I think such a thing would detract from the wonderful supportive friendship they have and possibly damage their working together as such a good team That's mostly my bias about their maturity levels, but hey, even mature people have trouble being together 24/7 in a romantic and working relationship. The Odin reference probably has something to do with the Thricewise that Dawn got hooked up with - all having to do with Norse mythology. whedonesque.com/comments/12866Thanks for the link! I'd been meaning to go googling for "thricewise", but hadn't gotten to it yet! I could go either way on a Buffy/Xander relationship. The reasons I would not like it would be because of the way it would alter their friendship. But at the same time, I can see how a friendship can grow over time to become more, so in that way I could see it happening. I'd like to see Buffy and Spike get together again, especially after the progress we saw in season 7 of working through their stormy past history, but I don't hold out a lot of hope of that happening. At least not in the comic.
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Post by Rob on May 19, 2007 17:10:16 GMT -5
I suppose I should comment on the goings on within the Season 8 comics. I know that intro didn't sound overly enthusiastic, but I have my reasons...which I'll denote later on. For the moment, let's dwell on the plentiful good points: The character artwork is really well done. I've read criticisms in many forums regarding the lack of resemblance to the actors, but I wasn't put off by that at all. It seems pretty clear to me that artists of this quality this could draw perfect likenesses of Sarah or Michelle if they wished. For various reasons (most of which I believe could be legal) they haven't done so. Therefore I've learned to accept the limitations and enjoy the new interpretations. IMO, it's always been more about the voices anyway. Which leads me to the writing. No surprises here. In Joss's mind, I think these characters are like a favorite chair: wherever he may go, nothing will be more familiar and comfortable. Lord knows many have tried (including a certain wannabe fanfic writer), but no one will ever do it quite as well the creator. If rumors are true regarding subsequent writers of future arcs, I think a high level of quality will be maintained. One other note: while nothing would replace the actual show and/or film series, it's refreshing that budgetary concerns are no longer involved. If he wants Buffy and Xander to operate out of a majestic scottish castle, voila! On location. If he wants to make Dawn someone who has to bathe in a loch, no problem! Such things would be much more difficult (if not impossible) to pull off on the CW, for obvious reasons. Characters can go anywhere, do anything. That has to be a liberating experience for a fantasy writer. As to the plot itself? I'm assuming Amy somehow brought Warren back from the dead since he appeared in the Season 7 dead baddie compilation. Still...seeing him made me shuddery. I guess if they were looking to give the Gang a reason to return to Sunnydale, Willow in mortal peril would do the trick. Giant Dawn = amusing. Wonder where they found clothes? Well, I suppose her clothes were on when the thricewise super-sized her. Still, that must be one heck of a dry-cleaning bill. :-) Interesting note: just like in early Season 7, the main characters are spread throughout the globe...except Xander and the Summers sisters. I don't know what, if anything, Joss means by that pattern, but it seems clear that Xander is now officially the Riker to Buffy's Picard. I was delighted to see this...and more than a little surprised. I had a pretty clear impression that Joss had nothing else in mind for Xander once Season 7 ended. He had a great deal to say about other characters in his exit interviews - Buffy, Spike, Willow, Giles, even Andrew - but Xander wasn't often a topic. Perhaps it was just assumed that Xander will always be at Buffy's side, and that's that. Nothing more to add. Either way, he has clearly been re-established as a primary character, and this is a wonderful thing. Sure, it probably only occurred out of necessity since Spike and Angel are apparently out of the picture...but I'll take it any way I can get it. Now, to the 'shippy stuff. I have to approach this topic with care, as I haven't really allowed myself to seriously dwell on Buffy/Xander in quite a while. The show was over, there was no chance whatsoever of it happening...and I'd come to the point of accepting that. It was hard, though....extremely hard. Some part of me wanted it to happen very badly, the reason for which I couldn't say, exactly. Probably an extension of my own self-image; the joke-telling nerd deserves to have a chance with the hottie of his dreams. Or something along those lines. Anyway, I'm not going to delve into the specific pros and cons of the relationship. I spent many years making impassioned arguments in favor of Buffy/Xander; anyone can find them in the archives, so rehashing them would be pointless. I also understand the strong contrary arguments; there are anti-Buffy/Xander opinions that are just as valid. From what I've seen in the comic so far, I think Joss himself sides with those contrary arguments. I base this on dream interpretation: Buffy isn't literally worried about physically breaking Xander during sex (well...ok, maybe a little :-) ), but I DO think she's concerned about the consequences of jeopardizing his presence in her life, and with good reason. Buffy considers Xander damned near indispensable in his current role, and probably doesn't trust herself to be part of a healthy relationship. As far as the subconscious fantasies themselves, those didn't surprise me in the least. Hell, they were long overdue. Of course Buffy would have sexual thoughts about Xander. How could she not? Buffy trusts him completely, they're totally comfortable together...and the man's not a troll, after all. Still, I think the argument is made that it would take a lot for Buffy to make a conscious move in that regard...and rest assured, it will be Buffy's move to make. Xander will not be the one to do it. Which leads me to that whole "kiss of true love" thing. Of the events in the story, this - and only this - could potentially bother me a great deal. Considering the way it was presented, I'd be stunned if Xander turned out to be the one to kiss Buffy. If we've learned anything with Joss, it's to distrust what we're being shown. The focus on Xander is a misdirect. I'm not certain of that, of course...but it fits Joss's storytelling pattern. And that, friends, re-opens a wound that I thought had permanently healed. I don't know why Joss chose to go in this direction...but if I'm right, it's nothing short of cruel to Buffy/Xander 'shippers who waited 7 years to see something in canon. Admittedly, B/X people are comparitively few...but we feel as deeply as anyone else. I know that reads pretty melodramatically, but there it is. Bangels got their time, Spuffies did too...B/X 'ers got nothing. And now, Joss is doing the equivalent of taunting. Speaking for myself, I don't need to go through that again. Unless, of course, I'm wrong. Which would be nice. Out of curiosity, has anyone proposed the possibility that both Willow AND Xander kissed Buffy at the same time? Man, I'd be seriously in favor of that action. P.S. While I appreciate the consideration, no one has to bother apologizing to me directly whenever they speak against B/X. As I stated above, there are valid reasons against it. P.S.S. Though I would prefer a better reason than "'Cause Spike's way hotter!" ;D
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Post by Anne, Old S'cubie Cat on May 19, 2007 20:56:49 GMT -5
I suppose I should comment on the goings on within the Season 8 comics. I know that intro didn't sound overly enthusiastic, but I have my reasons...which I'll denote later on. For the moment, let's dwell on the plentiful good points: The character artwork is really well done. I've read criticisms in many forums regarding the lack of resemblance to the actors, but I wasn't put off by that at all. It seems pretty clear to me that artists of this quality this could draw perfect likenesses of Sarah or Michelle if they wished. For various reasons (most of which I believe could be legal) they haven't done so. Therefore I've learned to accept the limitations and enjoy the new interpretations. IMO, it's always been more about the voices anyway. Which leads me to the writing. No surprises here. In Joss's mind, I think these characters are like a favorite chair: wherever he may go, nothing will be more familiar and comfortable. Lord knows many have tried (including a certain wannabe fanfic writer), but no one will ever do it quite as well the creator. If rumors are true regarding subsequent writers of future arcs, I think a high level of quality will be maintained. One other note: while nothing would replace the actual show and/or film series, it's refreshing that budgetary concerns are no longer involved. If he wants Buffy and Xander to operate out of a majestic scottish castle, voila! On location. If he wants to make Dawn someone who has to bathe in a loch, no problem! Such things would be much more difficult (if not impossible) to pull off on the CW, for obvious reasons. Characters can go anywhere, do anything. That has to be a liberating experience for a fantasy writer. As to the plot itself? I'm assuming Amy somehow brought Warren back from the dead since he appeared in the Season 7 dead baddie compilation. Still...seeing him made me shuddery. I guess if they were looking to give the Gang a reason to return to Sunnydale, Willow in mortal peril would do the trick. Giant Dawn = amusing. Wonder where they found clothes? Well, I suppose her clothes were on when the thricewise super-sized her. Still, that must be one heck of a dry-cleaning bill. :-) Interesting note: just like in early Season 7, the main characters are spread throughout the globe...except Xander and the Summers sisters. I don't know what, if anything, Joss means by that pattern, but it seems clear that Xander is now officially the Riker to Buffy's Picard. I was delighted to see this...and more than a little surprised. I had a pretty clear impression that Joss had nothing else in mind for Xander once Season 7 ended. He had a great deal to say about other characters in his exit interviews - Buffy, Spike, Willow, Giles, even Andrew - but Xander wasn't often a topic. Perhaps it was just assumed that Xander will always be at Buffy's side, and that's that. Nothing more to add. Either way, he has clearly been re-established as a primary character, and this is a wonderful thing. Sure, it probably only occurred out of necessity since Spike and Angel are apparently out of the picture...but I'll take it any way I can get it. Now, to the 'shippy stuff. I have to approach this topic with care, as I haven't really allowed myself to seriously dwell on Buffy/Xander in quite a while. The show was over, there was no chance whatsoever of it happening...and I'd come to the point of accepting that. It was hard, though....extremely hard. Some part of me wanted it to happen very badly, the reason for which I couldn't say, exactly. Probably an extension of my own self-image; the joke-telling nerd deserves to have a chance with the hottie of his dreams. Or something along those lines. Anyway, I'm not going to delve into the specific pros and cons of the relationship. I spent many years making impassioned arguments in favor of Buffy/Xander; anyone can find them in the archives, so rehashing them would be pointless. I also understand the strong contrary arguments; there are anti-Buffy/Xander opinions that are just as valid. From what I've seen in the comic so far, I think Joss himself sides with those contrary arguments. I base this on dream interpretation: Buffy isn't literally worried about physically breaking Xander during sex (well...ok, maybe a little :-) ), but I DO think she's concerned about the consequences of jeopardizing his presence in her life, and with good reason. Buffy considers Xander damned near indispensable in his current role, and probably doesn't trust herself to be part of a healthy relationship. As far as the subconscious fantasies themselves, those didn't surprise me in the least. Hell, they were long overdue. Of course Buffy would have sexual thoughts about Xander. How could she not? Buffy trusts him completely, they're totally comfortable together...and the man's not a troll, after all. Still, I think the argument is made that it would take a lot for Buffy to make a conscious move in that regard...and rest assured, it will be Buffy's move to make. Xander will not be the one to do it. Which leads me to that whole "kiss of true love" thing. Of the events in the story, this - and only this - could potentially bother me a great deal. Considering the way it was presented, I'd be stunned if Xander turned out to be the one to kiss Buffy. If we've learned anything with Joss, it's to distrust what we're being shown. The focus on Xander is a misdirect. I'm not certain of that, of course...but it fits Joss's storytelling pattern. And that, friends, re-opens a wound that I thought had permanently healed. I don't know why Joss chose to go in this direction...but if I'm right, it's nothing short of cruel to Buffy/Xander 'shippers who waited 7 years to see something in canon. Admittedly, B/X people are comparitively few...but we feel as deeply as anyone else. I know that reads pretty melodramatically, but there it is. Bangels got their time, Spuffies did too...B/X 'ers got nothing. And now, Joss is doing the equivalent of taunting. Speaking for myself, I don't need to go through that again. Unless, of course, I'm wrong. Which would be nice. Out of curiosity, has anyone proposed the possibility that both Willow AND Xander kissed Buffy at the same time? Man, I'd be seriously in favor of that action. P.S. While I appreciate the consideration, no one has to bother apologizing to me directly whenever they speak against B/X. As I stated above, there are valid reasons against it. P.S.S. Though I would prefer a better reason than "'Cause Spike's way hotter!" ;D I'm glad you weighed in, and I always value your take on things, even if I don't always agree. I've been reading the comics, but haven't felt compelled to comment - they're fun, but not really the show I fell in love with. I agree with your assessment of the Buffy/Xander relationship - she values his friendship too much to jeopardize it. She probably feels as if every man she takes as a lover with leaves her, and she really, really doesn't want to lose Xander. Much as I would like to see Buffy and Xander as lovers, I don't think it'd happen either. Besides, you've already convinced me that Xander and Faith belong together. I wouldn't be surprised if both Xander and Willow kissed Buffy; nothing said that true love had to be requited. Or, for that matter, sexual at all. I think Xander is way hotter than Spike. *Goes off whistling "Here's to You, Mrs Robinson" ;D*
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Post by Rob on May 19, 2007 21:46:23 GMT -5
I agree with your assessment of the Buffy/Xander relationship - she values his friendship too much to jeopardize it. She probably feels as if every man she takes as a lover with leaves her, and she really, really doesn't want to lose Xander. Much as I would like to see Buffy and Xander as lovers, I don't think it'd happen either. Besides, you've already convinced me that Xander and Faith belong together. Interesting that you mention that (and thank you, by the way). One of my primary reasons for writing in a Xander/Faith direction was to wean myself off the Buffy/Xander fixation. For the most part, it has worked; over time, I fell in love with Xander and Faith as a couple. They complement one another in so many interesting ways. In canon, however, it seems highly unlikely Joss is going in that direction. We've yet to see Faith at all, so clearly she's nowhere near Scotland...and Joss didn't even bother to have Xander and Faith exchange a single word during her Season 7 stint. When it comes down to it, I'd be pleased with either Buffy or Faith with Xander...but it sure looks like Joss intends to hook him up with this newbie Slayer, Renee'. I can't bring myself to be very excited about that prospect.
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Post by Lola m on May 20, 2007 9:19:42 GMT -5
I agree with your assessment of the Buffy/Xander relationship - she values his friendship too much to jeopardize it. She probably feels as if every man she takes as a lover with leaves her, and she really, really doesn't want to lose Xander. Much as I would like to see Buffy and Xander as lovers, I don't think it'd happen either. Besides, you've already convinced me that Xander and Faith belong together. Interesting that you mention that (and thank you, by the way). One of my primary reasons for writing in a Xander/Faith direction was to wean myself off the Buffy/Xander fixation. For the most part, it has worked; over time, I fell in love with Xander and Faith as a couple. They complement one another in so many interesting ways. In canon, however, it seems highly unlikely Joss is going in that direction. We've yet to see Faith at all, so clearly she's nowhere near Scotland...and Joss didn't even bother to have Xander and Faith exchange a single word during her Season 7 stint. When it comes down to it, I'd be pleased with either Buffy or Faith with Xander...but it sure looks like Joss intends to hook him up with this newbie Slayer, Renee'. I can't bring myself to be very excited about that prospect. Count me as another one who is very happy to see your comments, Rob! As I've been thinking of it, I can actually see one potential reason why Joss may end up giving us Xander with Renee or other new character, and possibly also having the person who kissed Buffy end up being neither Xander nor Willow. Joss has historically shied away from involving the core scoobies (Buffy, Xander, Willow, Giles) romantically together - likely to preserve the important work they do and the friendships. Someone from outside the circle has always been brought in as the romantic connection. Angel, Cordelia, Oz, Jenny, Anya, Oliva, Riley, Tara, Spike, Kennedy, etc. Most of them either became involved in slayer business at the same time that the first relationship seeds were planted or were absorbed into the group to become a scoobie as they became involved with someone, but they hadn't been a core scooby first. Even though two of them (Cordelia, Spike) were sort of scoobies before a romantic interest was established, they were never really totally in the circle. Cordy was only occasionally interacting with the group and Spike was sometime grudgingly helpful for money or violent thrills and sometimes still filling the role of villian before he fell for Buffy. And when Xander and Willow got together briefly, it turned out disasterously. So, it may be that Joss has his own emotional uncrossable line when it comes to his main 4 characters. On the other hand, anything can happen I guess. And they've all had time and space to grow and develop as people, so . . . ;D
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Post by Karen on May 20, 2007 19:58:23 GMT -5
I suppose I should comment on the goings on within the Season 8 comics.As to the plot itself? I'm assuming Amy somehow brought Warren back from the dead since he appeared in the Season 7 dead baddie compilation. Still...seeing him made me shuddery. I guess if they were looking to give the Gang a reason to return to Sunnydale, Willow in mortal peril would do the trick. Ah! Now, I get the title. I'm assuming they'll need to 'fix' Dawn before she'll be able to go home, too. Loved your comments, Rob. I've already said that I would like to see Buffy end up with Xander, if we have to pick from the current characters. Although, I think Lola is right about Joss shying away from hook-ups within the 'family'. It's kind of a recipe for potential disaster to have intimate relationships within your co-worker/friends circle. Until the slayer and her gang are no longer needed, I don't see how Buffy/Xander would work. But what do I know?
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Post by Queen E on Jun 9, 2007 14:42:41 GMT -5
Did anyone else think that the demon Giles was talking about looked like Malenka Fray's "Watcher"?
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Post by LadyDi on Jun 10, 2007 17:10:40 GMT -5
Hey Rob, your reply was really thoughtful and a very interesting read. Thanks. Joss is good at opening old wounds. He knows how we feel and likes to turn that against us sometimes. I kinda hope you're right that this won't turn out to be a Bander 'ship in the end, 'cuz all of Buffy's ships are really just about her, in a what aspect of her does this 'ship reflect sort of way. It doesn't really matter who the guy is, and having been thru that w/Spike, I don't want to have to go thru it again with Xander.
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Post by Onjel on Nov 13, 2007 15:12:13 GMT -5
So, Scott from Dark Horse says that the identity of the person who kissed Buffy was revealed and to take a close look. I can't find it. I must be missing something. ETA: I got it! I got it! I know who kissed Buffy! It was Satsu, one of the new slayers! She rescued Willow with Buffy and uses cinnamon lip gloss! ;D ETAA: And, duh. Since others have long since voiced this suspicion I will go on record as saying we must all be right. Teach me not to read far enough back, or forward as the case may be. Or, you know, remember what we talked about and I agreed with.
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Post by Rachael on Nov 26, 2007 22:42:21 GMT -5
Hey, Since I'm late to the party (as usual), thought I'd sum up... "Great muppity odin, I miss that sex." I REALLY hate this line, for two reasons: 1) Any random string of syllables would make about as much sense as 'great muppity odin', and more importantly, 2) Buffy doesn't miss the provider, just the service. This is so crappy (IMO), I don't know where to begin. Thing is, though...that's the way it is, sometimes. When I was single for extended periods, I missed the sex. Not the person who'd provided it so much. Not to say anyone would do, but - it wasn't about the person, not once a few months had gone by and I'd had time to move on. Plus, I'm one who thinks Buffy never really loved Spike in a deep and significant way. That relationship, IMO, was unidirectional almost to the end, and that last few weeks wasn't enough to turn it around. And I've truly had enough Buffy/Spike. I want her with someone new. I say she gives Xander a whirl. Xander's very pretty....
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Post by Rachael on Nov 26, 2007 22:51:35 GMT -5
Okay, so, about Warren:
TERRIBLY disappointed, me, with the Warren turn. But I'm trying to trust the Joss to make it all better.
Mostly, I'm bummed because it feels like a violation of continuity and established canon. Warren should be dead, if only 'cause the First was able to mimic him. Yet he clearly states that Amy had only about four seconds to save him. Which implies that he didn't die - she kept him from dying.
Although his bit about his "human life" vs. whatever he is now is interesting. Sort of.
Anyway, the other reason it bugs me is that I feel it cheapens Willow's meltdown at the end of Season 6. Warren was saved? Really? Grr.
Okay, I admit it. I liked seeing her flay Warren, and I wanted him to get dead as a result of it, and I don't want new canon telling me it didn't go that way.
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Post by Rachael on Nov 26, 2007 23:05:50 GMT -5
Did anyone else think that the demon Giles was talking about looked like Malenka Fray's "Watcher"? Yes! Me! I KNEW I'd seen it somewhere before....
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