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Post by Onjel on Jun 13, 2007 12:35:42 GMT -5
I agree. I suppose he might have been dead for a second and brought back to life by Amy. Did he specifically say that he never died? I've been wondering what it is about Warren that makes him (in Joss's mind) such a good nemesis for Buffy. Another think I liked about this issue was the highlighting of the importance of 'moms'. Dawn feels like Willow is her surrogate mother, and Willow used Amy's issues with her mom to defeat her. Just a thought (I've only read through the comic once) - what if it isn't Warren at all? What if Warren is really dead and this "Warren" is a minion of TFE that has taken on his appearance? I'd expect Warren to be a nemesis for Willow, not Buffy - his actions led to Willow losing control, going all black-eyed and veiny and nearly destroying the world. So it would make sense that Willow would be haunted by her memories of Warren and her own actions. Anne, this would make more sense if I was awake Actually, it makes a lot of sense. The TFE can't really be destroyed or completely beaten. Had Buffy and company done so, there would be no more evil in the world to fight, since TFE is the whole reason for evil. Therefore, it really could be TFE, assuming Any found a way to make it corporeal and thus able to actually wield the scalpel we saw.
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Post by Karen on Jun 13, 2007 13:50:34 GMT -5
Just a thought (I've only read through the comic once) - what if it isn't Warren at all? What if Warren is really dead and this "Warren" is a minion of TFE that has taken on his appearance? I'd expect Warren to be a nemesis for Willow, not Buffy - his actions led to Willow losing control, going all black-eyed and veiny and nearly destroying the world. So it would make sense that Willow would be haunted by her memories of Warren and her own actions. Anne, this would make more sense if I was awake Actually, it makes a lot of sense. The TFE can't really be destroyed or completely beaten. Had Buffy and company done so, there would be no more evil in the world to fight, since TFE is the whole reason for evil. Therefore, it really could be TFE, assuming Any found a way to make it corporeal and thus able to actually wield the scalpel we saw. Hmmmm...actually, I like this train of thought. If it wasn't really Warren we were seeing, it has to be something that Amy (or TFE, or some other unknown) that conjured it. Maybe Amy figured out how to make a Warren-bot to mess with the Scoobies? ETA: No wonder he said he never got tired of saying "This isn't over, Summers." Very Terminator-like. And thus, robot-like.
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Post by Lola m on Jun 13, 2007 16:39:36 GMT -5
Warren being back - no problem Warren never having been dead - problem - First
Body modification, including tattoos (knights of byzantium) and scars (these twilight guys), are very old human techniques. Most symbols are human symbols. Presence of symbols says nothing about presence of mystical. In logic world. In Buffy world you never know. I agree. That's been bothering me since he was revealed and we were told he was saved from death by shock just in the nick of time, by Amy. That does not compute and appears violative of everything we were told in the series about TFE. **nods** I'm thinking he had to actually have died for a second or so at least and Amy actually brought him back. Like Buffy, when Xander revived her after drowning.
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Post by Lola m on Jun 13, 2007 16:41:36 GMT -5
Warren being back - no problem Warren never having been dead - problem - FirstBody modification, including tattoos (knights of byzantium) and scars (these twilight guys), are very old human techniques. Most symbols are human symbols. Presence of symbols says nothing about presence of mystical. In logic world. In Buffy world you never know. I agree. I suppose he might have been dead for a second and brought back to life by Amy. Did he specifically say that he never died? I've been wondering what it is about Warren that makes him (in Joss's mind) such a good nemesis for Buffy. Another think I liked about this issue was the highlighting of the importance of 'moms'. Dawn feels like Willow is her surrogate mother, and Willow used Amy's issues with her mom to defeat her. **nods again** Well, he says "Do you know she had maybe a four-second window after my skin came off before I died of shock alone?" But . . . he could simply not totally understand the full import of what Amy did. Or it could just be a continuity glitch. Or he could just have been such a jerk/bad guy that TFE was able to use his image anyway . . . ;D
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Post by Lola m on Jun 13, 2007 16:42:52 GMT -5
I agree. I suppose he might have been dead for a second and brought back to life by Amy. Did he specifically say that he never died? I've been wondering what it is about Warren that makes him (in Joss's mind) such a good nemesis for Buffy. Another think I liked about this issue was the highlighting of the importance of 'moms'. Dawn feels like Willow is her surrogate mother, and Willow used Amy's issues with her mom to defeat her. Just a thought (I've only read through the comic once) - what if it isn't Warren at all? What if Warren is really dead and this "Warren" is a minion of TFE that has taken on his appearance? I'd expect Warren to be a nemesis for Willow, not Buffy - his actions led to Willow losing control, going all black-eyed and veiny and nearly destroying the world. So it would make sense that Willow would be haunted by her memories of Warren and her own actions. Anne, this would make more sense if I was awake Ooooooh, someone who is pretending to be Warren . . . That has some intriguing possiblities too . . .
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Post by Lola m on Jun 13, 2007 16:44:21 GMT -5
Actually, it makes a lot of sense. The TFE can't really be destroyed or completely beaten. Had Buffy and company done so, there would be no more evil in the world to fight, since TFE is the whole reason for evil. Therefore, it really could be TFE, assuming Any found a way to make it corporeal and thus able to actually wield the scalpel we saw. Hmmmm...actually, I like this train of thought. If it wasn't really Warren we were seeing, it has to be something that Amy (or TFE, or some other unknown) that conjured it. Maybe Amy figured out how to make a Warren-bot to mess with the Scoobies? ETA: No wonder he said he never got tired of saying "This isn't over, Summers." Very Terminator-like. And thus, robot-like. Heee! Now I'm picturing him saying "I'll be back" in a German accent. ;D ;D
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Post by KMInfinity on Jun 14, 2007 16:53:27 GMT -5
My Issue #4 finally came today. YAY! …but one seemed all words - thought? - and another was sort of watery. The wordy being had some math symbols too I think. Just a thought (I've only read through the comic once) - what if it isn't Warren at all? What if Warren is really dead and this "Warren" is a minion of TFE that has taken on his appearance? I'd expect Warren to be a nemesis for Willow, not Buffy - his actions led to Willow losing control, going all black-eyed and veiny and nearly destroying the world. So it would make sense that Willow would be haunted by her memories of Warren and her own actions. Anne, this would make more sense if I was awake This makes great sense that TFE is still after Buffy. Why should the destruction of the Sunnydale Hellmouth have anything to do with the destruction of TFE? From what murky concepts I was able to understand during S7, TFE is always there, but not always able to work directly – hence The Preacher and others. What if he (Warren) really is dead but reanimated AND possessed by TFE! I wish there’d been a scene with Warren and Andrew. (Anyone else think Willow really seemed to rebound easily from the torture?) I’m not a fan of the duality nature of the universe with good and evil mandated as equals, but the General(?) seemed to suggest that Willow’s creation of the Slayerettes has increased the Good so much that Evil can find a better foothold, AND he alluded to the idea that Slayers aren’t necessarily Good. (Contradiction?) I’d think that being a Potential would preclude any innate evil by definition, but certainly Slayers COULD become evil (Dana) or choose evil (Faith). It would be nice to get some canonical info about the new slayer specs. Is every potential-in-the-womb born a slayer? Does it come upon them at menses? (The ballplayer scene seems to imply younger slayers exist.) Is a new slayer created at conception when a slayer dies? OR, when all of the current slayers die, will only one be reborn? Is Joss going to try to put the genie back in the bottle? Why are we sure Ethan is… (whispering) dead? Thanks Karen and Lola for the art info!
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Post by jeff on Jun 14, 2007 17:21:29 GMT -5
My Issue #4 finally came today. YAY! …but one seemed all words - thought? - and another was sort of watery. The wordy being had some math symbols too I think. Just a thought (I've only read through the comic once) - what if it isn't Warren at all? What if Warren is really dead and this "Warren" is a minion of TFE that has taken on his appearance? I'd expect Warren to be a nemesis for Willow, not Buffy - his actions led to Willow losing control, going all black-eyed and veiny and nearly destroying the world. So it would make sense that Willow would be haunted by her memories of Warren and her own actions. Anne, this would make more sense if I was awake This makes great sense that TFE is still after Buffy. Why should the destruction of the Sunnydale Hellmouth have anything to do with the destruction of TFE? From what murky concepts I was able to understand during S7, TFE is always there, but not always able to work directly – hence The Preacher and others. What if he (Warren) really is dead but reanimated AND possessed by TFE! I wish there’d been a scene with Warren and Andrew. (Anyone else think Willow really seemed to rebound easily from the torture?) I’m not a fan of the duality nature of the universe with good and evil mandated as equals, but the General(?) seemed to suggest that Willow’s creation of the Slayerettes has increased the Good so much that Evil can find a better foothold, AND he alluded to the idea that Slayers aren’t necessarily Good. (Contradiction?) I’d think that being a Potential would preclude any innate evil by definition, but certainly Slayers COULD become evil (Dana) or choose evil (Faith). It would be nice to get some canonical info about the new slayer specs. Is every potential-in-the-womb born a slayer? Does it come upon them at menses? (The ballplayer scene seems to imply younger slayers exist.) Is a new slayer created at conception when a slayer dies? OR, when all of the current slayers die, will only one be reborn? Is Joss going to try to put the genie back in the bottle? Why are we sure Ethan is… (whispering) dead?Thanks Karen and Lola for the art info! I agree, Ethan being dead did not even cross my mind until I read it on this thread. I just assumed he was hurt, or unconsious. He looked like they had beaten him up pretty bad. But I did not think he was dead.
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Post by Spaced Out Looney on Jun 14, 2007 21:07:41 GMT -5
I agree, Jeff, that indications are very strong that Willow is the one who kissed Buffy, evidenced by the mystical bond that appeared to manifest itself in this issue. More thoughts on this issue later as time permits. Got my copy in the mail today. I know that for a cynic, I can be hopelessly sentimental, and that this is the sort of wooly-headed thinking that gets people eaten, but I think Willow kissed Buffy, too. After all, I don't think there was anything that said that the love had to be sexual in nature, or requited, for that matter. I was thinking along those lines too. They stressed "not like a sister," but said nothing about friendship-love. ETA: After reading the rest of the thread, I agree that maybe it's Satsu with the cinnamon. Does that mean she has a crush on Buffy? Poor girl. But seriously, this is like the least important thing in the world to me.
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Post by Karen on Jun 14, 2007 21:10:39 GMT -5
My Issue #4 finally came today. YAY! …but one seemed all words - thought? - and another was sort of watery. The wordy being had some math symbols too I think. Just a thought (I've only read through the comic once) - what if it isn't Warren at all? What if Warren is really dead and this "Warren" is a minion of TFE that has taken on his appearance? I'd expect Warren to be a nemesis for Willow, not Buffy - his actions led to Willow losing control, going all black-eyed and veiny and nearly destroying the world. So it would make sense that Willow would be haunted by her memories of Warren and her own actions. Anne, this would make more sense if I was awake This makes great sense that TFE is still after Buffy. Why should the destruction of the Sunnydale Hellmouth have anything to do with the destruction of TFE? From what murky concepts I was able to understand during S7, TFE is always there, but not always able to work directly – hence The Preacher and others. What if he (Warren) really is dead but reanimated AND possessed by TFE! I wish there’d been a scene with Warren and Andrew. (Anyone else think Willow really seemed to rebound easily from the torture?) I’m not a fan of the duality nature of the universe with good and evil mandated as equals, but the General(?) seemed to suggest that Willow’s creation of the Slayerettes has increased the Good so much that Evil can find a better foothold, AND he alluded to the idea that Slayers aren’t necessarily Good. (Contradiction?) I’d think that being a Potential would preclude any innate evil by definition, but certainly Slayers COULD become evil (Dana) or choose evil (Faith). It would be nice to get some canonical info about the new slayer specs. Is every potential-in-the-womb born a slayer? Does it come upon them at menses? (The ballplayer scene seems to imply younger slayers exist.) Is a new slayer created at conception when a slayer dies? OR, when all of the current slayers die, will only one be reborn? Is Joss going to try to put the genie back in the bottle? Why are we sure Ethan is… (whispering) dead? Thanks Karen and Lola for the art info! Have you read "Fray"? It outlines what Joss sees for the future slayers. I think that potentials are born, and depending on their situation, some are groomed to be slayers - like Kendra.
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Post by beccaelizabeth on Jun 15, 2007 7:41:28 GMT -5
I agree, Ethan being dead did not even cross my mind until I read it on this thread. I just assumed he was hurt, or unconsious. He looked like they had beaten him up pretty bad. But I did not think he was dead. There was a gun, a hole in the head, and a smear of blood on the wall. That says 'shot in the head' pretty clearly in comics.
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Post by Spaced Out Looney on Jun 15, 2007 7:52:32 GMT -5
I'll admit that I probably read this a little too fast and I kinda forgot where they left off, so I was confused at first, but the issue seemed like a whole lot of WTF, until the very end, when the guy started talking about the activation of all the Slayers. Yay! Dangling plot threads being addressed! It gives me hope that we may get definitive answers about how Buffy's resurrection disrupted the Slayer line and what the Scythe's all about, etc. And the guy may be evil or a cultist or something, but I think he does have a valid point or two somewhere in what he said.
NotDeadWarren... well, eetah to be's comment about the characters that our heroes kill being not actually dead. I find it a disappointing but consistent trend. On the other hand, there are some interesting things about his being alive.
And also, there's that how can The First appear as Warren thing.
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Post by Karen on Jun 16, 2007 21:59:16 GMT -5
My favorite quote from this issue:
Black Ops General: "Twilight is coming. For you, for all your monstrous spawn...it all ends very soon."
Buffy: "Are you talking about the girls who are protecting the world from --"
Black Ops General: "Evil? Demons? ...You've upset the balance, girl. Do you really think we were going to sit by and let you create a master race?"
Buffy: "This isn't about demons at all, is it? It's about women. It's about power and it's about women and you just hate those two words in the same sentence, don't you?"
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Post by KMInfinity on Jun 17, 2007 19:34:09 GMT -5
Have you read "Fray"? It outlines what Joss sees for the future slayers. I think that potentials are born, and depending on their situation, some are groomed to be slayers - like Kendra. I have read Fray, but at the time not thinking of comics as being canon or anything "important" to the Buffyverse. With my newfound understanding, I'll have to pull that out and reread it.
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Post by LadyDi on Jun 18, 2007 21:55:16 GMT -5
I'll admit that I probably read this a little too fast and I kinda forgot where they left off, so I was confused at first, but the issue seemed like a whole lot of WTF, until the very end, when the guy started talking about the activation of all the Slayers. Yay! Dangling plot threads being addressed! It gives me hope that we may get definitive answers about how Buffy's resurrection disrupted the Slayer line and what the Scythe's all about, etc. And the guy may be evil or a cultist or something, but I think he does have a valid point or two somewhere in what he said. NotDeadWarren... well, eetah to be's comment about the characters that our heroes kill being not actually dead. I find it a disappointing but consistent trend. On the other hand, there are some interesting things about his being alive. And also, there's that how can The First appear as Warren thing. I could not agree more. One of the worst things about s6 (IMO), is that both Buffy and Willow got easy outs for their bad behavior. For Willow, it was the bad, bad magic. For Buffy, the bad, bad vampire (or his enabling, at any rate). If your gonna go there, then really go there, dammit! S6 was supposed to be about growing up, and part of growing up is taking responsibility for your actions and accepting the consequences.
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