|
|
Post by William the Bloody on Oct 3, 2003 3:36:35 GMT -5
|
|
|
|
Post by SpringSummers on Oct 3, 2003 6:59:23 GMT -5
Yes! Great start, Nan.
You must get linked through slayage, I say, you must! This is bound to be the best review on line for Angel 5.1, from what I've seen, both past and present. If they linked to Hunter's they will surely want to link to these, which promise to be superior to those, in my humble opinion.
I liked the way you sort of summarized the episode without actually having a formal summary or ponderous blow-by-blow style - and providing character insights as you went.
I liked very appropriate Season-opener focus, in your conclusion, about what this means for the future. I liked the way you did the "Miscellaneous" section.
Also, until I read this, I hadn't noticed that W&H were on "Spring" Street! This means that Spike will be spending a lot time on Spring. I just like the sound of that.
|
|
|
|
Post by ldelrossi on Oct 3, 2003 7:59:54 GMT -5
Really thoughtful review Nan. I had many of the same questions. I totally agree with your idea of perhaps the overriding premise for this season: "Is it possible to pursue Good ends by Evil means? That seems to be right in line with Joss' mantra on Buffy and later on Angel: Demons are not all evil, men are not all good.
This is a "situational ethical" question and extremely subjective. We have seen that vampires who are demons, can behave with honor, with or without souls. We have seen men (lawyers at W&H) act maleficently even though they have souls.
I do think the Fang Gang is still trying to find its way, except as you said, Fred and Lorne. Angel is not used to being totally surrounded by minions who do his bidding before he even asks for it. He is used to being in charge and making decisions. Although they gave him the firm, the Senior Parnters seem to want a puppet who will eventually be totally corrupted. The best example of that is the bug on Angel.
It was a bit unsettling that our 200+year old hero was somewhat in the dark about the manuverings of "His" company.
Angel's killing of the commandos plays right into your "Good by Evil means" statement. Did he not also attempt that when he murdered the demons and then burned Darla and Drusilla? Or was he too far gone to still be good?
I, too, wondered about Wesley. He doesn't seem to have found his niche yet. But it fits with who he is: a Watcher. He is introspective and observes before he acts. But it is interesting that he was the one who hired Harmony - perhaps hoping that she, in her ditziness, will reveal all of the gossip in the building.
Finally the apple. What a brilliant Joss touch! It is the symbol of discovering Good and Evil. Angel knows good and evil and he must decide how to continue his "good fight" using whatever means he can, probably some evil. He also must keep himself and the others from being corrupted.
Perhaps that will be Spike's role. He did get all glowy - maybe he's a higher being. Hopefully not the Jasmine type.
|
|
|
|
Post by SpringSummers on Oct 3, 2003 8:09:56 GMT -5
Really thoughtful review Nan. I had many of the same questions. I totally agree with your idea of perhaps the overriding premise for this season: "Is it possible to pursue Good ends by Evil means? That seems to be right in line with Joss' mantra on Buffy and later on Angel: Demons are not all evil, men are not all good. <snip> Perhaps that will be Spike's role. He did get all glowy - maybe he's a higher being. Hopefully not the Jasmine type. Lori - your comments and Nan's review made me think of this quote from Season 7 Buffy, to Giles, about de-chipping Spike: BUFFY: You think I'm losing sight of the big picture, but I'm not. When Spike had that chip, it was like having him in a muzzle. It was wrong. You can't beat evil by doing evil. I know that. I wonder if we don't see Joss's true, underlying philosphy in that statement, and I wonder what it will mean for the very gray Fang-Gang this season. Also - I can't see Spike ever being a "higher being" of any kind. I mean . . . he's a hero, in his own way, and I think he always will be, but it won't be of the "higher being" variety. I base this on nothing but the way the character "feels" to me, so who knows. But I just can't see Spike . . ascending in a formal way. |
|
|
|
Post by ldelrossi on Oct 3, 2003 8:33:48 GMT -5
I was thinking more of Spike in the line of Doyle, a messenger. You're right, Spike doesn't feel like a higher being. He certainly wouldn't be happy about it. But his death and return had some magical/supernatural aura.
Who will tell Angel who is in trouble? I can't see W&H giving him messages about the helpless. Aren't they trying to bring him over to the dark side?
I didn't remember that quote. I still think Joss is more of a situation ethics type person - sometimes the end justifies the means. Giles killed Ben/Glory which was the only way to stop her.
I do think Joss likes to give us these conundrums to think about.
|
|
|
|
Post by Sue on Oct 3, 2003 8:48:27 GMT -5
Yes! Great start, Nan. You must get linked through slayage, I say, you must! This is bound to be the best review on line for Angel 5.1, from what I've seen, both past and present. If they linked to Hunter's they will surely want to link to these, which promise to be superior to those, in my humble opinion. . I haven't even read it yet, and I totally agree. How do you do this? I'm printing it off. I'll probably spend all day at the airport. The youngest is trying to fly to Chicago to visit her brother on a free stand-by pass, but all the flights are sold out--so lots of reading time! Promise real comments later. |
|
|
|
Post by SpringSummers on Oct 3, 2003 9:43:51 GMT -5
I haven't even read it yet, and I totally agree. How do you do this? I'm printing it off. I'll probably spend all day at the airport. The youngest is trying to fly to Chicago to visit her brother on a free stand-by pass, but all the flights are sold out--so lots of reading time! Promise real comments later. Slayage has a small green link (right side, scroll down at that says "contact slayage." I tried this, and it has a drop down box for "submit an article." I went ahead and said something like: "Nan Dibble's review is up! It's great and you should link to it" - and gave them the direct link: www.soulfulspike.com/nanreviews/nanangel_5-1.htmI'd say that we all bombard them with this suggestion, singing the praises of Nan's review! |
|
|
|
Post by deborah on Oct 3, 2003 10:04:33 GMT -5
Joining the band wagon here, Nan. You absolutely must get linked to Slayage. I'm sure they would be very pleased to carry them. We must find out how it's done.
Also I urge you to announce your review along with a link in your LJ. I know you have people checking there daily for updates to the new story who would come and read your review and hopefully join the discussion.
Your review was wonderfully comprehensive and I love the extras at the end. It's a great way to keep track of the trivia and inconsistencies, and see which eventually make sense and which are left as dangling lose ends.
To your list of oddities though I would add the question of why Harmony would have renounced hunting and feeding off humans as she's neither ensoulled, chipped or in love with a *truly good person* who she's trying to please.
|
|
|
|
Post by Rob on Oct 3, 2003 15:02:20 GMT -5
I enjoyed this review very much. A concise and thoughtful discourse on the multilayered events of the season opener. A lot of threads were opened...and there are still a couple to be revealed.
This has the feel of an extremely complex and controversial season. If we had a hard time defining who was right or wrong in BTVS Season Seven, I get the feeling we ain't seen nothing yet.
|
|
|
|
Post by Patti - S'cubie Cutie on Oct 3, 2003 15:48:39 GMT -5
Nan, great job! I really enjoyed your excellent review. I'm going to do as Spring suggested and send a 'come see' to Slayage. I am really excited about this season, and you are really going to be adding to the fun of it.
I hope you will continue to do those 'Miscellaneous' notes each week too.
And...I'm nodding with pleasure that we both saw the show in basically the same way but came up with different focus. yea us!
But I want to bring up one point of disagreement (for the fun of discussion). Your take on this seems to be what most people on the board have also concluded, but I see it a little differently.
The point is - what did Angel mean by his statement 'You've just seen the last of it' in connection with mercy?
When I heard him say mercy is stronger than conviction, and saw him kill the wetworks team, I saw that as an expression of mercy towards those who would have been murdered had the team had their way. They were going to take out the child, the class, and any witnesses.
Totally dedicated to evil, any claim to being superior to monsters had been forfeited. I am not absolutely sure they were human, because they removed their masks with the poison gas in the air, and breathed it. (why the masks then? for anonymity?)
When the surviving member of the wetworks team asked Angel 'what about mercy?' Angel replied 'YOU have just seen the last of it.' (emphasis mine).
I saw that as meaning - 'you have experienced mercy - I didn't kill you. If I see you again, there will be no mercy.'
I'm going to post this on the main board too, so more folk can argue with me if they want to!
Again, great review!
|
|
|
|
Post by Queen E on Oct 3, 2003 17:28:51 GMT -5
Nan:
I'm not sure I have anything new to add, except to say that your review really captured my rather conflicted reactions to this opening episode. On the one hand, I feel a little shoved aside for "new" viewers; I miss the arc stuff. On the other hand, even if I don't always agree with the direction BtVS or Angel have gone in at particular junctures, it's always a hell of a ride. So, I'm buckled in for next week!
|
|
|
|
Post by Laura on Oct 3, 2003 20:35:03 GMT -5
Slayage has a small green link (right side, scroll down at that says "contact slayage." I tried this, and it has a drop down box for "submit an article." I went ahead and said something like: "Nan Dibble's review is up! It's great and you should link to it" - and gave them the direct link: www.soulfulspike.com/nanreviews/nanangel_5-1.htmI'd say that we all bombard them with this suggestion, singing the praises of Nan's review! |
|
|
|
Post by raenstorm on Oct 3, 2003 22:46:24 GMT -5
I'm always a day late and a dollar short  Great job, Nan. You brought us back into the season perfectly. I'd say more but I'd just be repeating what everyone else has already said. Oh, one thing, I think it's fair to assume that the money and power behind W&H is sufficient to "buy" Gunn all the papers he needs to prove he's passed the bar. Plus, with all the mojo they stuffed in his head, I'm sure he could pass it in a second. I anxiously await your next review! |
|
|
|
Post by Nan-S'cubie Mascot on Oct 4, 2003 6:13:15 GMT -5
I hope that next time, people who drift in from Slayage will have a link at the end of the review to bring them to the discussion thread. Everybody play nice with them: no blood on the Rumpus Room floor. And YES, we have a Rumpus Room because I say so. We often have Rumpuses and need one. And on this thread although no other, I am fully Jossed and I HAVE THE POWER! (He-Man quote. Sorry.)
|
|
|
|
Post by RAKSHA on Oct 4, 2003 14:24:07 GMT -5
If I had a million dollars, I'd give $5000 to Nan and $5000 to the S3 site. But I don't have a million dollars.
Anyway, great review, Nan! I'll enjoy it even more after I've actually seen the episode, which won't be until after I've seen the second episode. But being spoiled never bothered me; I've known about the manner of Spike's return for months. Eve sounds tedious, though, except for the obvious symbolism of her name and Angel's apple-biting.
[shadow=brown,left,300]GAIL  [/shadow]
|
|
[/shadow]