Pangs Discussion

[William the Bloody]

Let the discussion begin!

[Spaced Out Looney]

During the fight, Spike is tied up and helpless, and becomes riddled with arrows. As a former Catholic schoolgirl, who spent many long afternoons studying the lives of the saints, I was immediately reminded of the many paintings I had once seen of Saint Sebastian, tied to a tree and riddled with arrows. But the only other thing I could remember about him was that he had been a Christian martyr. I did a web search and refreshed my memory: Saint Sebastian had been a Roman soldier who switched allegiance and ended up a martyr for the other side. After his death and canonization, he became the patron saint of soldiers, athletes, and diseased persons (like Xander). Sebastian didn’t actually die from the arrows, but survived only to be executed later. The first execution attempt, however, became a favorite subject of Religious painters through the ages, and Sebastian became well known for almost always being depicted as a beautiful, fair complexioned young man with a Greek God body, in nothing but a loin cloth, helplessly tied to tree with a multitude of arrows penetrating his flesh. I will let you guess what other sort of Internet sites were also listed in the results of my web search for “Saint Sebastian.” Let’s just say that my mouth dropped open when I opened a link to a harmless sounding site. Saints preserve us! I was stunned. The nuns never told me about this, though I imagine it is only recently that the saintly Sebastian has been adopted as an icon for groups other than devout Catholics. Those BtVS writers – oh, what funny folks. I’m still too speechless from that search to say much more about it.

I wanted to point out that in In The Dark, Spike hired some one to torture Angel by skewering him with pokers. The image of Spike here riddled with arrows is very similar. Sort of an indication of the beginning of Spike's karmic retribution maybe.

[SpringSummers]

Spaced said:

I wanted to point out that in In The Dark, Spike hired some one to torture Angel by skewering him with pokers. The image of Spike here riddled with arrows is very similar. Sort of an indication of the beginning of Spike's karmic retribution maybe.

Yay! A comment on my Pangs thread. I got some comments on this one, but I think they were all over on ScoopMe.

Thanks for sharing your thought on this SOL.

Yes, I think that "Spike being hurt" scenes all have some of that karmic retribution thing going for them. I recently rewatched Intervention, and he's strung up in that by Glory, much as he had Angel strung up in In the Dark, and that young man in Harsh Light of Day, then Buffy chained up in Crush.

Even the way he's emotionally hurt by others mirrors the way he emotionally hurts others (he's awfully good at hurting others with his words, but also very easily hurt by others - kind of goes together.)

But it's the use of those arrows in particular - a multitude of arrows sticking out of a young, fair man who is all tied up with rope - that's all about St Sebastian to me. It's unavoidable, thinking of St Sebastian, if you've any significant exposure to his story and the paintings of him. As you mentioned in another thread, the "Spike's going to go get his soul, be redeemed" foreshadowing starts fairly hot and heavy, fairly early, and this is part of that.

Which fits with the karmic retribution thing also - which was still happening for Spike in AtS Season 5.

[Kerrie]

Hi guys,
I will try again to post (third time lucky) . I have finally got a chance to post because I am doing yard duty in the computer room on a 38 or over day. This is great because I can finally thank Spring for her wonderful reviews that allowed me to show BtVS last year to my English class. I started with this one and showed the class bits of Spring's reviews to allow them to see how themes could be explored in a television show. Needless to say they belly-ached about it, but they liked Spike. I also showed them Hush, Something Blue, Surprise and Innocence. I started with this episode of Pangs.

Cheers,

Kerrie.

[SpringSummers]

kerrie said:

Hi guys,
I will try again to post (third time lucky) . I have finally got a chance to post because I am doing yard duty in the computer room on a 38 or over day. This is great because I can finally thank Spring for her wonderful reviews that allowed me to show BtVS last year to my English class. I started with this one and showed the class bits of Spring's reviews to allow them to see how themes could be explored in a television show. Needless to say they belly-ached about it, but they liked Spike. I also showed them Hush, Something Blue, Surprise and Innocence. I started with this episode of Pangs.

Cheers,

Kerrie.

Kerrie!

It's so good to hear from you. I just noticed this post, thanks to Sue pointing it out.

I am glad that my reviews could be of some use.

I hope all is well with you; I think of you quite often.

Hugs!

[S'ewing S'cubie]

Pangs is one of my top five Buffy favorite episodes.

I agree with the St Sebatian analogy, although I'll bet the farm that St S wasn't quite so snarky about the arrow business, to wit: "Hey! Watch the heart!" and the immortal exchange:

SPIKE: Remember that conquering nation thing? Forget it. Apologize.

BUFFY: Shut up, Spike.

SPIKE: Fine, I'll do it myself. (calls) Hey, sorry. Sorry about that, chief.

And of course, "A bear! You made a bear! Undo it! Undo it!"

Spike, at this point, has a very long way to go.

[SpringSummers]

dianeu said:

Pangs is one of my top five Buffy favorite episodes.

I agree with the St Sebatian analogy, although I'll bet the farm that St S wasn't quite so snarky about the arrow business, to wit: "Hey! Watch the heart!" and the immortal exchange:

SPIKE: Remember that conquering nation thing? Forget it. Apologize.

BUFFY: Shut up, Spike.

SPIKE: Fine, I'll do it myself. (calls) Hey, sorry. Sorry about that, chief.

And of course, "A bear! You made a bear! Undo it! Undo it!"

Spike, at this point, has a very long way to go.

Yay! More comments on my Pangs thread!

Yes, Diane, I must agree - I went to Catholic schools and read more than one story about St Sebastian, and I don't recall that much snark.

And yes - to my mind, the imagery can only be a deliberate reference to Sebastian.

I love Spike in Pangs, and really all the way through Season 4. He brought a lot of funny to that Season, in his interplay with the S'cubies. I loved him and Xander especially that season . . . the way they would just so mercilessly but humorously go at each other:

SPIKE: You exterminated his race. What could you possibly say that would make him feel better? It's kill or be killed here. Take your bloody pick.

XANDER: Maybe it's the syphilis talking, but... Some of that made sense.

GILES: I made these points earlier, but fine, no one listens to me.

BUFFY: Fine, ok? But someone still has to go warn the dean.

WILLOW: I'll go. I need the air.

BUFFY: Not alone.

ANYA: I'll go.

XANDER: Me, too.

BUFFY: Sure you're up to it?

SPIKE: Oh, leave that one. He looks like he's ready to drop any minute, and I think I can eat someone if he's already dead.

XANDER: (Getting up.) I'm up to it.