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Post by William the Bloody on Sept 12, 2003 18:45:09 GMT -5
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Post by RAKSHA on Sept 12, 2003 19:56:19 GMT -5
Nice review, Patti! I wish it were on the same page as this one where we're supposed to comment, though.
Comments on your insightful comments: You may have been tortured by watching Angel groovin' to the dulcet sounds of Manilow's "Mandy" via the donut shop music box. I was too busy laughing loudly to be tortured. DB has great comic timing as well as puppy-dog eyes.
Speaking of puppies; the dog Angel rescued was a Pomeranian; and I don't think it was a young puppy; it looked older than two or three months; but still had a fuzzy look around the head if I remember right (which could also be caused by coat changes due to neutering/spaying). However, it doesn't really matter; JW has sprinkled many puppies/kittens references into BUFFY; and it was wonderful of Angel to risk getting his pretty suit dirty to save the little Pom.
I would agree that Wesley is, at this point, Angel's truest and best friend. Faith is a close second; I have the feeling she'd cheerfully die for Angel; and indeed she almost does. I wonder if her love for Angel is entirely platonic; does she have feelings for him but keep them under wraps out of deference to Buffy, not to mention feeling guilty about nearly killing Angel in Season 3 of BUFFY? Angel is Faith's mentor and inspiration - for an attractive older man and romantically inexperienced much younger woman with major father issues, the line between mentor and love object might be quite blurry. (actually I think Faith might be better for Angel as a girlfriend than even Buffy, provided Faith grew up a bit first and they found a way around that pesky sex clause)
I agree that it was great to see Willow come into her own here. Her dialogue with Wesley was especially fun; because I could see them kind of making eyes at each other, though not obviously.
[shadow=pink,left,300]GAIL  [/shadow]
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Post by Nan-S'cubie Mascot on Sept 12, 2003 20:46:31 GMT -5
This is a Ta Da line:
Angel ensouled is not Angel redeemed.
Angel ensouled has choices, and sometimes those choices are spectacularly wrong. I wonder what that may portend for Spike? Anyway, a really fine line. Pithy and succinct.
I enjoyed this review because of its light-footedness. It ties itself to the episode, yet opens it up as the readers' and reviewer's common experience, like the Orb being a proper fan's paperweight, in great mass produced quantities. It assumes everybody knows Angel sings Mandy often and horribly. It tries, and cheerfully fails, to disentangle any 1:1 connection between the myth of Orpheus and the present story--because there isn't any!
A very neat review, Patti![/color]
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Post by RAKSHA on Sept 12, 2003 21:03:21 GMT -5
This is a Ta Da line:
Angel ensouled is not Angel redeemed.
Angel ensouled has choices, and sometimes those choices are spectacularly wrong. I wonder what that may portend for Spike? Anyway, a really fine line. Pithy and succinct.
I enjoyed this review because of its light-footedness. It ties itself to the episode, yet opens it up as the readers' and reviewer's common experience, like the Orb being a proper fan's paperweight, in great mass produced quantities. It assumes everybody knows Angel sings Mandy often and horribly. It tries, and cheerfully fails, to disentangle any 1:1 connection between the myth of Orpheus and the present story--because there isn't any!
A very neat review, Patti! [/color] [/quote] Whoopsie; I missed the Ta-Da line: Angel ensouled is not Angel redeemed. Good one! I do think there's a slight connection between the episode and the Orpheus myth. In the myth, one person goes voluntarily into the after-death underworld to retrieve someone that person cares about very much. There is a good chance that one of them will not come out of the underworld. In "Orpheus" the episode, Faith takes the Orpheus role in that she voluntarily risks death to subdue Angelus, an action essential to retrieving the lost Angel. Faith tries her best to help Angel in the altered, other than true-life state in which they and Angelus find themselves. If I recall right, there was some serious communication between Faith and Angel in their mental 'underworld'. So there was some connection, though very slim. Thankfully it didn't involve Angel singing. [shadow=purple,left,300]Gail [/shadow] |
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Post by Laura on Sept 13, 2003 16:54:49 GMT -5
I too loved the "how've you been" exchange between Cordy and Willow, but particularly since it echoed the same exchange between Amy and Buffy in S6 "Smashed":Buffy: Hi. How've you been?
Amy: Rat. You?
Buffy: Dead.
Amy: Oh.
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Post by Queen E on Sept 15, 2003 12:21:32 GMT -5
Whoopsie; I missed the Ta-Da line: Angel ensouled is not Angel redeemed. Good one! I do think there's a slight connection between the episode and the Orpheus myth. In the myth, one person goes voluntarily into the after-death underworld to retrieve someone that person cares about very much. There is a good chance that one of them will not come out of the underworld. In "Orpheus" the episode, Faith takes the Orpheus role in that she voluntarily risks death to subdue Angelus, an action essential to retrieving the lost Angel. Faith tries her best to help Angel in the altered, other than true-life state in which they and Angelus find themselves. If I recall right, there was some serious communication between Faith and Angel in their mental 'underworld'. So there was some connection, though very slim. Thankfully it didn't involve Angel singing. [shadow=purple,left,300]Gail [/shadow]Patti: Just wanted to add that I thought it was a great review, not only for the many interesting points you brought up (that everyone else here has already pointed out), but that the writing was sprightly and full of your personality! Rock on! eg |
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Post by Patti - S'cubie Cutie on Sept 15, 2003 17:38:12 GMT -5
Nice review, Patti! I wish it were on the same page as this one where we're supposed to comment, though.
Comments on your insightful comments: You may have been tortured by watching Angel groovin' to the dulcet sounds of Manilow's "Mandy" via the donut shop music box. I was too busy laughing loudly to be tortured. DB has great comic timing as well as puppy-dog eyes.
Speaking of puppies; the dog Angel rescued was a Pomeranian; and I don't think it was a young puppy; it looked older than two or three months; but still had a fuzzy look around the head if I remember right (which could also be caused by coat changes due to neutering/spaying). However, it doesn't really matter; JW has sprinkled many puppies/kittens references into BUFFY; and it was wonderful of Angel to risk getting his pretty suit dirty to save the little Pom.
I would agree that Wesley is, at this point, Angel's truest and best friend. Faith is a close second; I have the feeling she'd cheerfully die for Angel; and indeed she almost does. I wonder if her love for Angel is entirely platonic; does she have feelings for him but keep them under wraps out of deference to Buffy, not to mention feeling guilty about nearly killing Angel in Season 3 of BUFFY? Angel is Faith's mentor and inspiration - for an attractive older man and romantically inexperienced much younger woman with major father issues, the line between mentor and love object might be quite blurry. (actually I think Faith might be better for Angel as a girlfriend than even Buffy, provided Faith grew up a bit first and they found a way around that pesky sex clause)
I agree that it was great to see Willow come into her own here. Her dialogue with Wesley was especially fun; because I could see them kind of making eyes at each other, though not obviously.
[shadow=pink,left,300]GAIL [/shadow]
Thank you Gail! I'm glad you enjoyed the review AND that you agree with me about Wesley! |
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Post by SpringSummers on Sept 18, 2003 7:56:45 GMT -5
Nice review, Patti - just right. Light but filling - fun.
I hope you are lined up for some guest reviews for the new season?
Oh, I can't wait!
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Post by raenstorm on Sept 18, 2003 9:08:54 GMT -5
Very nice, Patti. Great review  I'm glad you refreshed my memory on story of Orpheus and Eurydice. I really wasn't giving that much thought when watching the episode the first time but, when I rewatched it, it put a totally different spin on the show. I think, in this episode, that Faith is Eurydice. In previous epsidose, that was not the case but once Angelus fights with Angel in the alley it becomes clear that this journey wasn't about him. Because I know how much you care  ... this is how I see the metaphor with the different scenarios: Scenario - Angel Trapped in Angelus: (Previous Episode/s)- Angel: Eurydice - Angelus: The Snake - Faith: Orpheus Scenario - Faith Dying: (This Episode)- Faith: Eurydice - Angelus: The Snake - Angel: Orpheus |
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Post by Queen E on Sept 18, 2003 17:11:21 GMT -5
Very nice, Patti. Great review I'm glad you refreshed my memory on story of Orpheus and Eurydice. I really wasn't giving that much thought when watching the episode the first time but, when I rewatched it, it put a totally different spin on the show. I think, in this episode, that Faith is Eurydice. In previous epsidose, that was not the case but once Angelus fights with Angel in the alley it becomes clear that this journey wasn't about him. Because I know how much you care ... this is how I see the metaphor with the different scenarios: Scenario - Angel Trapped in Angelus: (Previous Episode/s)- Angel: Eurydice - Angelus: The Snake - Faith: Orpheus Scenario - Faith Dying: (This Episode)- Faith: Eurydice - Angelus: The Snake - Angel: Orpheus Oh, of course! Because in each case someone is being brought from a place of "death." Rae, you're so smart. |
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Post by raenstorm on Sept 18, 2003 18:11:00 GMT -5
Oh, of course! Because in each case someone is being brought from a place of "death." Rae, you're so smart. Yep ... and I'm willing to consider that, in Angel's scenario, that Angelus wasn't necessarily the snake. It's possible that Cordelia or, even, all of the Fang Gang could have been the snake. They were the ones that put him there which makes me wonder if that was the beginning of their turn to the dark side that we see furthered in the last episode. PS - I wasn't saying "Yep" to the "Rae, you're so smart" because I'm not. I wouldn't have seen it if Patti hadn't pointed out the metaphor clanking around in the episode. |
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Post by Patti - S'cubie Cutie on Sept 18, 2003 22:46:22 GMT -5
Thank all of you who have said such nice things about my review. It makes me really happy and relieves my mind about upcoming guest reviews - and yes, I'll be doing some. In fact, I'll be the guest reviewer for the very first episode of the season on Oct. 1st! Eek!  |
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Post by Rob on Sept 22, 2003 0:19:49 GMT -5
This is a pivotal episode of Angel, Season 4 for a lot of reasons. You did a wonderful job pointing out the various roles in the drama in a fun and entertaining way. Most entertaining to me was your little skewering of those who always try to find some sort of literary link to everything we see on both series. While the influence is there, the stories tend to differ because the characters differ.
For example, I once read a theory (not here) which attempted to link Xander's loss of his eye with Oedipus. Which is a pretty neat idea...until one realizes that the only thing the stories have in common is the loss of an eye. Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar, and all that...
I agree with Nan with regard to your line "Angel ensouled does not equal Angel redeemed." Perfectly stated, without excessive embellishment.
Nicely done, Patti. I enjoyed it.
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Post by Nan-S'cubie Mascot on Sept 22, 2003 1:29:05 GMT -5
Very nice, Patti. Great review I'm glad you refreshed my memory on story of Orpheus and Eurydice. I really wasn't giving that much thought when watching the episode the first time but, when I rewatched it, it put a totally different spin on the show. I think, in this episode, that Faith is Eurydice. In previous epsidose, that was not the case but once Angelus fights with Angel in the alley it becomes clear that this journey wasn't about him. Because I know how much you care ... this is how I see the metaphor with the different scenarios: Scenario - Angel Trapped in Angelus: (Previous Episode/s)- Angel: Eurydice - Angelus: The Snake - Faith: Orpheus Scenario - Faith Dying: (This Episode)- Faith: Eurydice - Angelus: The Snake - Angel: Orpheus Good on you, Rae! Now that you point it out, I believe you're correct. One scenario won't fit this trilogy of episodes, but breaking out the last one differently WORKS. It's still the Orpheus legend, but some of the players have changed places. Good call! |
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Post by ldelrossi on Sept 22, 2003 9:07:07 GMT -5
I enjoyed the review Patti and everyone's comments. I too had wondered about the title. Being the librarian that I am I had to go find the myth and reread it.
Two lines from Bullfinch's rendition resonated with me in regards to the episode:
"Not only his fellow mortals but wild beasts were softened by his strains and gathering round him laid by their fierceness."
"Love has led me here. Love is a god all powerful with us who dwell on the earth."
Some of you made comments about love - platonic or otherwise and Faith's willingness to sacrifice her life is certainly about love. Wesley went after Faith, Fred called Willow, Willow battled the demon(Cordelia) holding Angel's soul. Yes, they wanted to subjugate Angelus, but if they didn't care about Angel, they could have just staked him.
The music part - besides that above quote there is another about music soothing the savage beast - Angel, a vampire, souled or not, still a demon, choosing to play a song from a jukebox and swaying to the music with his eyes closed. It was hysterical, but it seemed to soothe him briefly.
Joss is so well read, he is constantly throwing references at us and I, for one, enjoy trying to figure out how they fit. I admit sometimes it's a stretch.
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[/shadow]
... this is how I see the metaphor with the different scenarios:
