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Post by Karen on Oct 16, 2003 10:11:08 GMT -5
Sorry, Rae, but the "single act" thing is a sore point w/me. In one swell foop, Spike saved the woman he loved, dusted the uber-vamps, and closed a Hellmouth. Over the course of 100 years, Angel saved a puppy (not that I don't like puppies). Even supposing that all of the above isn't enough for Spike's redemption, what about the amulet? Does/did it really have "cleansing...scrubbing bubbles?" If so, then Spike should be fully redeemed. I wonder if W & H gave Angel the amulet knowing full well that Spike would end up wearing it. If Spike gets the redemption Angel feels he (Angel) deserves, there could be some serious fall-out. Angel has saved many lives during the last 4 years. That's gotta mean something. Now he just has to work on saving his own unlife (and Spike's). They many never get what they "deserve".
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Post by LeeHollins on Oct 16, 2003 12:11:45 GMT -5
Rae - I loved your review!! It was a wonderful complement to Nan's. You are signed up for more, right? I really enjoyed your comparision of the two vampires and how sometimes doing the right thing is reward enough. Something to keep in mind in the upcoming episodes.... And I LOVED the "Proof I actually did watch the episode" - ha ha ha!!! Again, great job on the review!!
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Post by RAKSHA on Oct 16, 2003 19:05:02 GMT -5
Angel has saved many lives during the last 4 years. That's gotta mean something. Now he just has to work on saving his own unlife (and Spike's). They many never get what they "deserve". As I've pointed out on the main board, Spike is at the beginning of a very promising career as a heroic souled vampire. Angel had Whistler the friendly demon emissary of the Powers to jump-start his heroic career and pull him out of the pathetic existence as a rat-eating alley dweller. Angel also had Doyle, Whistler's successor, to nurture and support every heroic instinct and action he undertook, not to mention getting Angel OUT of the broody-moping stage and into heroic mode when Angel was wandering L.A. not knowing what exactly to do with himself. The only person to give Spike encouragement to believe in himself and his potential to be a good person was Buffy. And Spike STILL managed to help and save lives, and help the Scoobies before he ever had a soul or even WAS encouraged by Buffy...
Now, Spike is totally isolated and no one is there to even say 'hang in there, Spike, we won't give up on you, we believe in you'. Fred should get some credit, since she stuck up for Spike's rights without knowing him at all, i.e. saying it wasn't right to just terminate him without his consent. But I'm disappointed in Angel's attitude towards Spike. He of all people should empathize with what Spike is going through.
GAIL
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Post by makd on Oct 20, 2003 19:33:25 GMT -5
"If you do the right thing you can be sure of just rewards.” Try to use that saying on Angel and Spike. I dare ya."
One thought: Remember the old saying, "no good deed goes unpunished." Makes one re-think just rewards, right?
great review! sorry to be late with the reading, but I am trying to catch up!
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Post by LadyDi on Oct 21, 2003 22:58:54 GMT -5
The more I think about this, the more it bugs me. I can't believe after all the talk from JW/ME about what kind of message(s) they want to put out that their message is now: [glow=red,2,300]saving the world is pointless and not worth the bother[/glow] I keep having to remind myself it's still early in the season, and we don't know what the eventual outcome of Spike's heroism will be.
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Post by Betsy on Oct 22, 2003 1:23:43 GMT -5
The more I think about this, the more it bugs me. I can't believe after all the talk from JW/ME about what kind of message(s) they want to put out that their message is now: [glow=red,2,300]saving the world is pointless and not worth the bother[/glow] I keep having to remind myself it's still early in the season, and we don't know what the eventual outcome of Spike's heroism will be. Well maybe with his past, it's gonna take more than one act to make up for it. Look at all the saving of lives and averting apocolypses that Angel has done . . . and he's not human yet.
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Post by raenstorm on Oct 22, 2003 12:45:40 GMT -5
Well maybe with his past, it's gonna take more than one act to make up for it. Look at all the saving of lives and averting apocolypses that Angel has done . . . and he's not human yet. Yes. This is what I was trying to point out. Angel has done much more than Spike has and still he continues to atone for his past wrongs. The point here isn't what we believe would make up for the past but the precedents ME has set up. If Angel has saved the world several times over and still gets dumped on by the PTB and several others, how can we expect different for Spike? For what it is worth, I'd reward them both with life.. joy.. etc. Then agian, it's not my show and Joss hasn't been calling me up to write episodes lately. (Admittedly... my show about two regular men savoring life would be rather dull but he could still call!) Also, LadyDi, I don't think the message is that saving the world is pointless or without its rewards. However, I don't know if you should have 'expectations' of a reward. Should I only save the world (or a person) if there was something in it for me? What could anyone ever do to repay that favor? Don't get me wrong, a lil' "damn you done good" would be nice but, the one thing Joss has been consistent in showing us with Buffy is that most of the time you don't get that recognition. Actually managing to save the world IS your reward. I also don't think it's fair to think he's not going to get recognition for what he did. The season just started, Spike's story has many episodes to be told. Maybe after tonight we'll all be a lil' more satisified with the way things are unfolding.
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