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Post by William the Bloody on Oct 10, 2003 15:23:32 GMT -5
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Post by raenstorm on Oct 10, 2003 15:33:12 GMT -5
It's just wrong that I was waiting for this board to open so I could add something... I read Billie's review over at www.TVTome.com and she caught the name-calling too. She included some that I loved and forgot about (I was wondering why I had those 'phrases' in my notes  ) Lorne called Fred "Slim" Gunn called Lorne "Green Jeans" Spike called Angel, "Beefcake" Harmony called Spike, "Slayer-loving freak" (My favorite one) |
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Post by missbuffy on Oct 10, 2003 15:43:40 GMT -5
Great stuff Rae! I really liked your comparison of the two vamps 'just rewards'. Oh, and I actually put my hand up.  |
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Post by raenstorm on Oct 10, 2003 15:51:11 GMT -5
Great stuff Rae! I really liked your comparison of the two vamps 'just rewards'. Oh, and I actually put my hand up. Thanks Missbuffy! Hmm, I forgot that I could have put "go to the board and tell me if you raised your hand." Darnit... another PR opportunity for the board missed. |
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Post by Patti - S'cubie Cutie on Oct 10, 2003 19:48:04 GMT -5
Rae, you did a fantastic job with your first review! I really liked your final thought - that doing the right thing IS its own reward. It had better be, it sometimes, often seems.
Good call on mention of the Gunn voodoo doll! Don't think anyone had mentioned that, and I didn't even notice til my second viewing, but it made me LOL then!
And the new S'cubie snark line....
'Oh. I'm sorry. I didn't care.'
Let's adopt it!
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Post by Karen on Oct 10, 2003 22:18:44 GMT -5
Your brought up some good questions in your review, Rae. One question I had was the statement Angel made about Hainsley's business that let demons inhabit a dead human body - "to walk among the sheep". I get the obvious, "wolf in sheep's clothing" analogy, but when he said it, all I could think of was that Angel thought humans were sheep - and it wasn't a compliment. I don't know, it was just struck me oddly.
Thanks for the great review!
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Post by Spring Summers on Oct 10, 2003 23:45:02 GMT -5
Nice work, Rae.
My favorite line you wrote: "This fact is enough to qualify Spike as the perfect foil. Every time Spike “pops” up, Angel is reminded of his past sins."
So true. I thought this was part of the dynamic in Season 2 BtVS as well (prior to Angel losing his soul)- but it was made more explicit here.
This episode was really jam-packed with things to talk about and dissect and analyze.
Time for bed. Am having such insomnia this week, but I must be up early tomorrow morning!
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Post by Nan-S'cubie Mascot on Oct 11, 2003 7:32:29 GMT -5
I thought your review was lively and cogent, Rae. You took a topic and worked your way through it, pinning your argument down with specifics from the episode, so the review holds together nicely. I hope you enjoyed doing it!
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Post by Nickim on Oct 11, 2003 7:43:00 GMT -5
Your brought up some good questions in your review, Rae. One question I had was the statement Angel made about Hainsley's business that let demons inhabit a dead human body - "to walk among the sheep". I get the obvious, "wolf in sheep's clothing" analogy, but when he said it, all I could think of was that Angel thought humans were sheep - and it wasn't a compliment. I don't know, it was just struck me oddly. Thanks for the great review! I never thought of it that way. I think if Angel does feel that way, he means that humans are easy prey and greatly in need of protection. A shepherd does more than merely lead the sheep. He makes great sacrifices--living in isolation, etc.--to protect and care for them, much as Angel has done to protect humans. |
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Post by Karen on Oct 11, 2003 9:14:38 GMT -5
I never thought of it that way. I think if Angel does feel that way, he means that humans are easy prey and greatly in need of protection. A shepherd does more than merely lead the sheep. He makes great sacrifices--living in isolation, etc.--to protect and care for them, much as Angel has done to protect humans. Great analogy, Nicki. Angel is very much like a shepherd. He is also a vampire, so not part of the human world, not really. And he does keep much of hisself from his human friends, the part of himself that he doesn't like that is lurking right beneath the surface. Spike doesn't seem to do that. He is right out there, sharing his feelings. He doesn't act like he's ashamed of who he is - he is what he is, and he accepts it pretty much. |
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Post by Nickim on Oct 11, 2003 10:00:32 GMT -5
Great analogy, Nicki. Angel is very much like a shepherd. He is also a vampire, so not part of the human world, not really. And he does keep much of hisself from his human friends, the part of himself that he doesn't like that is lurking right beneath the surface. Spike doesn't seem to do that. He is right out there, sharing his feelings. He doesn't act like he's ashamed of who he is - he is what he is, and he accepts it pretty much. Hey, Sandy liked my analogy. WOOHOO!!! And I'm not being sarcastic--everyone here is just so quick to see beneath the surface of these shows, that I feel way slow most of the time. |
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Post by ldelrossi on Oct 14, 2003 8:36:10 GMT -5
I liked your analogy too Nicki. thanks for bringing it up. Many of us have never seen a shepherd and have no appreciation of what they do. The isolation you mentioned is apropo for Angel. He has always had to work on his interaction, not so much with the FG, but with other humans - his line from City of reveals it - "I'll still save them, who cares if I don't stop and chat."
I liked your thoughts regarding Spike as a foil. I was glad that he stepped in to take Cordy's place as the "I think it, I say it" member of the group.
I totally agree with you that along with the Buffy issue, Spike is a constant reminder for Angel of Angelus. We saw last year that Angelus is just below the surface and is always trying to escape. But to have to face Spike only brings Angel's past up close and personal for him.
I think Angel does have a bit of ego, but - now remember I am one of those who love Angel. He is blustery regarding Spike's attributes - soul, saving the world, etc. so that part obviously annoys him.
He's faced with his past every time he looks at Spike. He alone remembers Connor - except for Eve. He alone remembers that he was briefly human and with Buffy and gave it up. He remembers his recent role as Angelus and how he said horrible things to everyone and tried to vampirize Faith. He's already had to let an evil man go free to save his son. He's gotten an employee murdered into 3 buckets. He's killed a potential client, much like that he mistakenly killed that demon who was protecting that pregnant woman. He knows now that he's being bugged. He has killed those commandos. He doesn't know why he's been given the law firm or what they have in mind for him.
Might he be acting egotistically to cover what he's really feeling -a bit helpless? Angel isn't used to feeling that way. He's used to being in control. He doesn't know how he will protect his friends and how he will be able to manipulate an evil law firm into allowing him to "help the helpless."
Champion or not, all of these things have to be wearing him down. But I do think that Spike will be the only one who can really help lshoulder some of that burden.
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Post by LadyDi on Oct 15, 2003 16:39:39 GMT -5
Loved your review, Rae, but once again I take exception to the "single act" reference. Spike's "single act" saved the world and closed the (Sunnydale) Hellmouth at the cost of his unlife. So far, he and Buffy are the only two characters in the Whedonverse who've willingly made the ultimate sacrifice to save us all. Angel died at Buffy's hands, and Darla acted to save Connor. Also, Spike hasn't limited himself to a single act. He submitted to torture to protect Dawn, and won back his soul to be worthy of Buffy's love. It seems as if ME never misses an opportunity to point out that Spike killed two slayers (seems like he's the only one who's managed it). Will they go so far in pushing Spike's heroic deeds as they have his dastardly ones? Selflessness isn't known for big (material) rewards. Hence the selfless part. Doing good can be its own reward, but have we really seen Spike's reward yet? Patience has never been one of Spike's virtues. Maybe this is his lesson in patience (and ours). I'm still hoping for something better to come. |
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Post by raenstorm on Oct 15, 2003 18:38:33 GMT -5
Yikes. I keep meaning to reply to posts but I get distracted and forget. Since we have a new episode tonight, I figured I should get my reply in now. Thanks to everyone for the kind words. Nan - I did enjoy it though I'm enjoying that I don't have to do one this week Lori - I agree that Angel's ego is a way of hiding/dealing with what he is really feeling. I'd say that is true with lots of people who have extra-sized egos. It doesn't detract from the champion that Angel is for me. Every hero has a tragic flaw and I see that as Angel's. LadyDi - It's not so much whether did one act or several. What I was questioning was at what point, esp. in the Buffyverse, has he really 'paid' or 'made up' for his past transgressions? Do a thousand heroic deeds make up for two thousand sins? I'm just not sure. It's probably different for everyone. I'm pretty giving when it comes to forgiveness but Joss doesn't seem to be the same. Nicki - I'll be watching Angel's interactions with people very closely now and I'll be looking for more "sheep"/"sheparding" references throughout the season. When one is always put in the situation of saving people who have no clue about the demons that surround them, maybe it begins to affect how that person sees the helpless? I can believe that Angel has moments where he does look down on us 'mere mortals'. I'm interested to see how this plays out this season, now that he is in an even greater position of power. Ok... I'm off to get clean up before tonight's new episode. I'm eager to read the next guest reviewer's take! |
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Post by LadyDi on Oct 16, 2003 2:05:06 GMT -5
Sorry, Rae, but the "single act" thing is a sore point w/me. In one swell foop, Spike saved the woman he loved, dusted the uber-vamps, and closed a Hellmouth. Over the course of 100 years, Angel saved a puppy (not that I don't like puppies). Even supposing that all of the above isn't enough for Spike's redemption, what about the amulet? Does/did it really have "cleansing...scrubbing bubbles?" If so, then Spike should be fully redeemed. I wonder if W & H gave Angel the amulet knowing full well that Spike would end up wearing it. If Spike gets the redemption Angel feels he (Angel) deserves, there could be some serious fall-out. |
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