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Post by RAKSHA on Nov 2, 2003 2:28:53 GMT -5
Great review, Spring! As a former Lit major, I love the connections you highlighted with The Grapes of Wrath. One thing I've been thinking about. In addition to the theme of corporate evil, what other themes are connected to the "dark side" of Angel? I agree with others that "bottling up" Angelus may be a major theme. But what about Angel's views of good and evil? So far, the major focus seems to have been that Angel wants redemption for the evil he has commited - specifically, against those (innocent?) victims he has harmed. But what about how he treats others of "evil" persuasion? Could Josh W be setting up an eventual exploration of the way Angel blithely assumes that demons, etc. can be destroyed? There's always been an undercurrent in BtVS and Angel that some things cannot be redeemed, but must be fought. Yet we now have two vampires with souls, have met various "demons" that aren't intrinsically evil, and have seen an increasingly ambiguous definition of what evil really is. I think it's significant that Angel has randomly hurt" or killed some employees, with the assumption they are evil and so it's okay. What if it becomes a given that nothing evil is irredeemable? If Spike has been "souled" and has the chance to be redeemed, or "saved" then doesn't that imply all evil can be redeemed? I'm thinking about two possibly relevant Christian concepts: ~Jesus' admonition to turn the other cheek/fighting isn't the answer (Peter at Gesthemane) ~the idea of a "merciful" God If JW develops a salvation theme, (even over more than one year), then the way Angel faces evil may change. He cannot only fight the evil and defeat it, he has to find some way to transform it. And maybe the first place he needs to do that is in W&H. I don't think there's ever going to be a particularly Christian interpretation of the redemption theme in the Jossverse; JW seems to go out of his way to avoid religious concerns. And I think there will always be evil to be punched out/fought/stopped; the show is based on the struggle between Good and Evil. Doesn't mean there can't be exploration of the fine line between Good and Evil, the shades of gray one finds in the adult world, and the compromises one has to make, not to mention how many compromises one can make before stepping over that line... [glow=red,2,300]GAIL [/glow]
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Post by SpringSummers on Nov 2, 2003 22:23:42 GMT -5
Great review, Spring! As a former Lit major, I love the connections you highlighted with The Grapes of Wrath. One thing I've been thinking about. In addition to the theme of corporate evil, what other themes are connected to the "dark side" of Angel? I agree with others that "bottling up" Angelus may be a major theme. But what about Angel's views of good and evil? Hi KMInfinity - thanks for your comments. I think all the "Angel being paralleled with the bad-guy," and certainly "vicious serial killer locked in the basement" (Pavayne) have to do with the darkside of Angel. In BtVS, in explaining to Giles why she had let Spike have a chipectomy and is generally being so good to him, Buffy tells Giles that you "can't fight evil by doing evil." Angel, in taking "the deal" and taking on W&H is coming perilously close to testing this theory. I'm not sure we get a "some things can't be redeemed" message very clearly in the Jossverse. Amibiguous is a good word for a lot of what we see in the Jossverse. Well . . . I do think that evil is evil is evil in the Jossverse - and you can't change that. But that is different than saying the person DOING the evil is irredeemable. I think the overall message from JW is "good is more powerful than evil." And I think he believes, underneath it all, those words he put in Buffy's mouth: "You can't fight evil by doing evil." I agree that JW doesn't believe in any way in a "merciful" God. Yes, Angel has a lot to figure out - and that "transforming evil" thing you mention - I think it is going to have to start with the evil within himself.
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Julie A
S'cubie
Scubie, Founder
Posts: 38
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Post by Julie A on Nov 2, 2003 22:45:30 GMT -5
Great review Spring! As always, you make me look at the episode in a totally new way. I never noticed that Angel has been mirroring the villians so far... very interesting observation. It turns out I really miss a lot when I only have time to watch the episode once!
I do wonder whether all the things that happened under lorne's spell are foreshadowing. I hope that Spike being happier turns out to be true. : ) And I totally agree: MORE SPIKE = BETTER EPISODE.
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Post by ldelrossi on Nov 3, 2003 9:30:09 GMT -5
Very insightful review as usual Spring. Most of what I thought has been mentioned by other posters, but I'll give a few more comments.
I really liked Laura's "fateful lighting" and "terrible swift sword" quotes. I think that both will happen.
I agree with the danger of walling off part of oneself. We know that Angel does that with his demon. As far back as season 1 of Buffy, the Angel episode, Darla tells him that he "hasn't had a moments peace" because he won't accept his demon self. The concentration and strength needed to control the demon must be terribly draining and he needs every ounce of vampire strength plus his soul to try to help the helpless under W&H's auspices and not be corrupted over to the dark side.
Lorne's inner self was truly shocking. Like Angel he carries a terrible burden. He must kiss up to everyone, demonic or not. He must smooth feathers after Angel continually ruffles them. No wonder his other self was Hulk-like. Wesley obviously walls off his feelings for Fred. Fred must be walling herself off too not to feel Wesley's desire. Gunn stakes territory. I agree he must want more influence at W&H. He is loyal, but he never forgets that Angel is a vampire. Even Spike seems to be trying to wall off his former relationship with Harmony. His new soul must be making him feel a bit guilty about how he treated her.
I do like the Grapes of Wrath images. Angel and Tom Joad are similar. Angel is afraid of the future at W&H. He is afraid that they will be corrupted. Angel must have been thinking about Spike's "belly of the beast" comment because he tells Gunn that W&H is trying to change them all. Angel must be "a hopeful committed man with mission." He cannot lose sight of his role as warrior for the good even though he also has to battle W&H more intimately.
I also like Spike as the preacher because he sought his soul, but also because he is seeing W&H and the FG with new eyes - eyes not clouded so that he can point out what the others are too busy to notice.
Finally I really like "cause his little piece of soul wasn't no good 'less it was with the rest, and was whole." That refers both to Spike and Angel as well as the FG - they are stronger working together as a family, instead of walling themselves off in their worries.
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Post by SpringSummers on Nov 3, 2003 10:06:57 GMT -5
Great review Spring! As always, you make me look at the episode in a totally new way. I never noticed that Angel has been mirroring the villians so far... very interesting observation. It turns out I really miss a lot when I only have time to watch the episode once! I do wonder whether all the things that happened under lorne's spell are foreshadowing. I hope that Spike being happier turns out to be true. : ) And I totally agree: MORE SPIKE = BETTER EPISODE. Julie! Good to hear from you. It really is hard to process an ep with only one viewing. I would guess that everything will contain some element of foreshadowing. Something that occured to me after I wrote the review was how that little guy chained to the big demon was sort of like the way Spike is "chained" to Angel. Will Angel somehow (figuratively) be "draining" Spike? Notice the little guy manages to unchain himself, and the first thing he does is escape. Don't know if this is significant or not. Someday, we'll look back and we'll be able to see all the foreshadowing treasures I suspect are buried in this episode.
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Post by SpringSummers on Nov 3, 2003 10:19:15 GMT -5
Very insightful review as usual Spring. Most of what I thought has been mentioned by other posters, but I'll give a few more comments. I really liked Laura's "fateful lighting" and "terrible swift sword" quotes. I think that both will happen. I agree with the danger of walling off part of oneself. We know that Angel does that with his demon. As far back as season 1 of Buffy, the Angel episode, Darla tells him that he "hasn't had a moments peace" because he won't accept his demon self. The concentration and strength needed to control the demon must be terribly draining and he needs every ounce of vampire strength plus his soul to try to help the helpless under W&H's auspices and not be corrupted over to the dark side. Lorne's inner self was truly shocking. Like Angel he carries a terrible burden. He must kiss up to everyone, demonic or not. He must smooth feathers after Angel continually ruffles them. No wonder his other self was Hulk-like. Wesley obviously walls off his feelings for Fred. Fred must be walling herself off too not to feel Wesley's desire. Gunn stakes territory. I agree he must want more influence at W&H. He is loyal, but he never forgets that Angel is a vampire. Even Spike seems to be trying to wall off his former relationship with Harmony. His new soul must be making him feel a bit guilty about how he treated her. I do like the Grapes of Wrath images. Angel and Tom Joad are similar. Angel is afraid of the future at W&H. He is afraid that they will be corrupted. Angel must have been thinking about Spike's "belly of the beast" comment because he tells Gunn that W&H is trying to change them all. Angel must be "a hopeful committed man with mission." He cannot lose sight of his role as warrior for the good even though he also has to battle W&H more intimately. I also like Spike as the preacher because he sought his soul, but also because he is seeing W&H and the FG with new eyes - eyes not clouded so that he can point out what the others are too busy to notice. Finally I really like "cause his little piece of soul wasn't no good 'less it was with the rest, and was whole." That refers both to Spike and Angel as well as the FG - they are stronger working together as a family, instead of walling themselves off in their worries. Thanks for your comments, Lori. I am glad you enjoyed the review. I was hoping you would comment as you are such a keen and closer observer of Angel, and my own knowledge of the character is limited from not having watched early AtS eps. I can't really process the idea of "fateful lightening," etc., with what we've seen so far. I'm not sure in what way that image would play a part - I don't think the . . . dramatic consequences . . . whatever they will be, of everything we are seeing, will be so "external." I think it is more around that "grapes of wrath" image by itself - what I mean is, that whatever happens will result from "the wrath" inside Angel (and to a lesser extent, the others). I don't know how this will be accomplished, exactly - and I could be way off base - but I get this feeling that Angelus will begin making himself felt without any trigger needed. It's a complex picture really. Spike is not done integrating himself, and probably never will be done learning how deal with his demon, but he is on his way - because of the very different way he got his soul (curse-free) and his very different personality, he is much farther along than Angel toward achieving a "wholeness." But should Angel ever do that - wouldn't that considerably lessen his suffering? And isn't that dangerous in terms of how slippery his soul is? Think of it: That "Angelus on a shelf" feels like hell to Angel. He all but says so, in what he says to Pavayne at the end of the Hellbound episode. If Angel learns, instead, to live with his "Angelus," to release himself from that hell, will he also release his soul? BUT if he does, would it make such a big difference in a more integrated Angel? Will we be exploring how "good" a vampire without a soul can be -what the significance of that soul really is - with Angel, instead of Spike? I sure hope this show stays on a least one more season, two more - even better. There is so much to explore!
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Post by ldelrossi on Nov 3, 2003 10:33:52 GMT -5
Spike has much importance on the show. A few I've already discussed. Perhaps Spike will also help Angel to accept Angelus. Spike is the only one who knew Angelus for any length of time. If he can convince Angel that there were some "good" parts to Angelus, perhaps Angel may accept at least a portion of his demon. We've seen he already likes "the invincible" part of being a vampire.
I believe the bond between the 2 vampires will deepen in spite of the fact that they both "protest too much." We saw an inkling of that in that sofa scene. They have a long history and are the only 2 vampires with souls. Angel can help Spike deal with his new found soul and Spike can help Angel somewhat accept Angelus.
Spike can cajole Angel into believing that his vampiric nature is what makes him a powerful warrior for good. Angel can help Spike avoid less selfish pursuits and become a warrior as well.
This will be a long time coming however. I agree at least 2 more seasons to work it out.
I'm wondering if the "Fateful lightning" may be a terrible mistake that Angel makes. He's been making a few already. Joss always has some big horror planned just to make his fans sleep deprived. It may also be something to do with Spike.
That's what makes this show phenomenal - so many possibilities.
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Post by RAKSHA on Nov 3, 2003 22:22:08 GMT -5
Spike has much importance on the show. A few I've already discussed. Perhaps Spike will also help Angel to accept Angelus. Spike is the only one who knew Angelus for any length of time. If he can convince Angel that there were some "good" parts to Angelus, perhaps Angel may accept at least a portion of his demon. We've seen he already likes "the invincible" part of being a vampire. I believe the bond between the 2 vampires will deepen in spite of the fact that they both "protest too much." We saw an inkling of that in that sofa scene. They have a long history and are the only 2 vampires with souls. Angel can help Spike deal with his new found soul and Spike can help Angel somewhat accept Angelus. Spike can cajole Angel into believing that his vampiric nature is what makes him a powerful warrior for good. Angel can help Spike avoid less selfish pursuits and become a warrior as well. This will be a long time coming however. I agree at least 2 more seasons to work it out. I'm wondering if the "Fateful lightning" may be a terrible mistake that Angel makes. He's been making a few already. Joss always has some big horror planned just to make his fans sleep deprived. It may also be something to do with Spike. That's what makes this show phenomenal - so many possibilities. Excellent post, Lori!
JW has said that Spike really dislikes Angel. I find that hard to believe, since I remember how pleased Spike was to see Angelus when The Broody One became psycho-killer once more.
I think that much of our souled vamps' mutual distrust and dislike stems from romantic rivalries, over Dru and Buffy. Spike adored Drusilla; but Angelus was her first choice. Spike got to have frequent intense sex with Buffy; which Angel didn't have - but Spike knows that Angel was Buffy's romantic star-crossed first love and believes that Buffy still loves Angel more than she loves him. Angel knows that Buffy turned down his offer to be her champion and fight at her side against the First; he believes she rejected his offer because of her fondness for Spike rather than expedient strategy (I think he's right), and it rankles.
What both of our Soul Men need to realize is how much they need each other. They are both adrift, souled immortal vampires in a world of mortals for whom they have come to care. Unless either Shanshues, they will watch their mortal friends and lovers grow old and die, or be killed. But Angel and Spike know what it is to regain a soul after over a century's worth of depravity and homicide, and to hopelessly love a Slayer. They can be each other's anchor in their new souled-champion existence. And they are family, at least the closest thing to it that they probably will ever have...
I do love the Angel/Spike scenes and dialogue; they've got a great big brother/little brother snarky relationship. JW would be very wise to continue that dynamic without letting it get too vicious/homicidal, etc.
[glow=red,2,300]GAIL ;D[/glow]
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Post by Karen on Nov 4, 2003 8:10:02 GMT -5
From Spring's reviews:
When I read this the first thing that popped in my mind was how it related to Buffy herself. It also sounds like Spike especially when he went to get his soul and it made him whole. Spring, didn't you once write that Spike = Buffy, Buffy = Spike, or something like that?
When Angel first met Buffy, he was a mess. Buffy gave him a mission - he does good, but he still needs to harness the 'darkness inside' to actually become whole. He needs to come to terms with his dark side.
In Season 7, Buffy ultimately realized that she needed to be part of the whole in order to defeat evil and become whole - cookies. When she died the second time, she lost her soul, so to speak. She didn't feel connected anymore to the world around her. In CWDP she told Webster: Cause even though they love me, it doesn't mean anything 'cause their opinions don't matter.' This attitude kind of parallels Angel's "it doesn't matter what we do" attitude. So Angel = Buffy?
I see Angel's journey kind of paralleling Buffy's. Spike was the key to making Buffy believe in herself. Will he also be the key to making Angel whole?
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Post by SpringSummers on Nov 4, 2003 8:42:54 GMT -5
From Spring's reviews: When I read this the first thing that popped in my mind was how it related to Buffy herself. It also sounds like Spike especially when he went to get his soul and it made him whole. Spring, didn't you once write that Spike = Buffy, Buffy = Spike, or something like that? When Angel first met Buffy, he was a mess. Buffy gave him a mission - he does good, but he still needs to harness the 'darkness inside' to actually become whole. He needs to come to terms with his dark side. In Season 7, Buffy ultimately realized that she needed to be part of the whole in order to defeat evil and become whole - cookies. When she died the second time, she lost her soul, so to speak. She didn't feel connected anymore to the world around her. In CWDP she told Webster: Cause even though they love me, it doesn't mean anything 'cause their opinions don't matter.' This attitude kind of parallels Angel's "it doesn't matter what we do" attitude. So Angel = Buffy? I see Angel's journey kind of paralleling Buffy's. Spike was the key to making Buffy believe in herself. Will he also be the key to making Angel whole? Basically, I think that there are ways that Buffy = Angel, and ways that Buffy = Spike. I do think that Angel is likely making a journey very similar to the one Buffy made in Season 6 - accepting and integrating - learning to love, really - her darkside, and harness its power. Spike was the one who helped her on that journey, and - yes - I suspect he will be the one who helps Angel on his. Buffy & Angel had this "spiritual plain" kind of relationship and they helped each other connect with their "light sides." With Spike, Buffy had a very "in this world, real, down & dirty" relationship and it helped Buffy connect to her darkside (it was interesting the way Buffy kept saying the relationship "wasn't real" in Season 6, when in fact, it was as real as real can get - but her insistence otherwise reflected her still idealized/unbaked cookie view of reality). Spike, on the other hand, saw Buffy as a connection to the light, and she was exactly that, for him. At the end, Buffy & Spike had both matured a lot and integrated pieces of themselves and become more whole, and they had that very real relationship to thank for very real consequences. I think Angel will also be benefitting from this - through Spike.
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Post by ldelrossi on Nov 4, 2003 9:22:20 GMT -5
I absolutely agree Spring. That's what I've been trying to say in almost all of my posts. You said it beautifully and thoughtfully - as always.
I am glad I don't have to immediately follow you with turn to review!
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Post by LadyDi on Nov 6, 2003 16:12:23 GMT -5
Great googley-moogley, Spring, h*ll of a review! ;D
I've never read GoW (or seen the movie), but I have a passing familiarity w/the story, and the parallels you draw btwn these stories ring true. I also love your parallel btwn Spike chained to Angel and the servant chained to Sebassis. Could Spike be the "...fateful lightning of His terrible, swift sword" as the song mentions? Spike's whirl-wind arrival, his chaotic nature, his snarky comments. He's a bolt from the blue, no? I think that's why Spike hasn't gotten the same spiritual guidance Angel did, he is spiritual guidance, not just for Angel, but for all the FG.
"The Fates lead him who will. He who won't they drag." (quoted by Joseph Campbell)
The Fates (PtB) had to drag Angel into the good fight. Spike went into it willingly (the chip didn't reward good behavior after all). I like to think the PtB recognize this and that's why they haven't sent anyone to help him. He's doing pretty well on his own, all things considered. Spike chose Fred over corporeality in Hellbound, and thank the PtB Wes and Gunn were there when he did. By choosing to save Fred, Spike has proven himself (AGAIN) as worthy of inclusion. He's more a part of the group now, and he will continue to become more important to them as the season progresses.
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Post by SpringSummers on Nov 6, 2003 16:51:34 GMT -5
Great googley-moogley, Spring, h*ll of a review! ;D I've never read GoW (or seen the movie), but I have a passing familiarity w/the story, and the parallels you draw btwn these stories ring true. I also love your parallel btwn Spike chained to Angel and the servant chained to Sebassis. Could Spike be the "...fateful lightning of His terrible, swift sword" as the song mentions? Spike's whirl-wind arrival, his chaotic nature, his snarky comments. He's a bolt from the blue, no? I think that's why Spike hasn't gotten the same spiritual guidance Angel did, he is spiritual guidance, not just for Angel, but for all the FG. "The Fates lead him who will. He who won't they drag." (quoted by Joseph Campbell) The Fates (PtB) had to drag Angel into the good fight. Spike went into it willingly (the chip didn't reward good behavior after all). I like to think the PtB recognize this and that's why they haven't sent anyone to help him. He's doing pretty well on his own, all things considered. Spike chose Fred over corporeality in Hellbound, and thank the PtB Wes and Gunn were there when he did. By choosing to save Fred, Spike has proven himself (AGAIN) as worthy of inclusion. He's more a part of the group now, and he will continue to become more important to them as the season progresses. Thanks Lady Di! Yes, I wish I had thought of the parallel between the chained servant, and the way Spike is chained to Angel, before I wrote the review. But of course, one of the great things about the Jossverse is the way the writers pack soooo much into an ep, you can continue seeing new things. I am fairly clueless as to what it all means, but I think in a year or two, looking back, we'll be able to see plenty of foreshadowing in the images we were presented with in this episode. Saving Fred was great, I thought it was even more impressive the way Spike gave up a chance to be corporeal for no other reason than to stop the evil that the necromancer was doing. I have heard lots of characterizations of Spike this season as self-involved, selfish - but I don't agree at all. I tend to thing the Grapes of Wrath reference was meant to extend only to the novel (not the Battle Hymn song) - but who knows. They do pack in the images, as I said. Love the Joseph Campbell quote - very appropriate! I think we'll see the FG doing both (going willingly, being dragged) in stops and starts.
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Post by Laura on Nov 8, 2003 13:01:18 GMT -5
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Post by Lola m on Apr 15, 2004 20:47:42 GMT -5
As suggested: a copy of stuff I thought of while watching LotP in prep for the final shows of the season. _____________________________________ Since it was a Lorne episode, I decided to watch specifically Lorne. How he was acting/feeling and how he affected others. • Lorne is reflecting and being reflected by everyone. He’s tired and stressed at the start and so is Angel. He tells Angel that he (Angel) is in a snit, yet it’s also true of Lorne. He’s alternately trying to be the mediator and snapping at people and so are Wes and Fred. He’s overworked and gosh, so is everyone else. As Lorne get's wilder and more into the party - the party itself gets wilder. • At the end, both Lorne and everyone else think they have learned something, yet they are all really back where they started. Angel says that what the gang should be learning from this is that they need to look within and that W&H is bad for them, but the gang ends up just as separate and isolated as before. Angel and the gang see the need for Lorne to rest and not overwork, yet Gunn still leaves the office saying “see you tomorrow, I mean today”. Lorne is sleeping at last, but his dreams seem to be alternate nightmares of still thinking it’s all on him and song/party. He’s fighting and restless, then smiling. • Lorne starts the episode looking at himself in the mirror with a real look of loathing and when the big puffy Lorne monster knocks him down, he says “Wow. I must really hate myself.” This ep has lots of examples of him really showing his desperation at W&H. I made a note to remember this and watch for his little reactions in the future, since I tend to forget and think of him and Gunn as always being the guys who are totally at home here. But obviously there were cracks in the façade from the beginning. • Seems interesting that as soon as the gang listens to Lorne and why he had his sleep removed – really hear him – he starts seeming less desperate. • Lorne uses Gunn’s desire to be the guy in charge, a challenge to Angel’s leadership as the motivator to get involved in the party. On Wes (and Fred) he uses their fear of being losers, wallflowers, etc. to motivate them. • Lorne really shares with Angel in the limo ride over to the Duke’s, and Angel seems to really hear him – at least for a bit. And Angel is the one staying by Lorne’s side at the end as he sleeps. That was nice to see. Non-Lorne specific stuff: Loved Harmony – she’s really the only helpful from the start one and, once again, a truth teller. “Morale here sucks.” ;D It’s so cute that they all just think it’s “a little weird” that Fred and Wes are drunk without drinking and that Gunn is peeing everywhere – but when Spike says that it’s “a great party” and that this song is the best one ever – well, then it's “there’s something wrong/it must be a spell”. ;D Ewwwww creepy moment now that we know what we know now: Knox talking to Fred about “our baby”. Made me go to the evil thing hatching out of Fred place. Lola
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