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Post by William the Bloody on Apr 26, 2004 13:04:37 GMT -5
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Post by beccaelizabeth on Apr 26, 2004 14:34:56 GMT -5
Sparky- didn't notice that neither
I still think Gunn's doing things the dumb way, but at least its his own dumb way
sans memories, says he'll do anything, with them, knows better. Important.
Clark Kent- or more relevant still, Connor Kent, aka Superboy in current DCU continuity. I think.
and trust was so duh I missed it doh
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Post by Lola m on Apr 26, 2004 18:37:51 GMT -5
Great review, Erin!
Which are the real memories and which are the fake? Are either set of Connor’s or Wes’ memories really fake or really real? Are they both real – and, if they are, are they also both fake?
I seem to be “soaking” in thoughts about memory. Today I went to see the movie Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind and it just resonated with so many of the discussions we have been having here at S3.
Really, this episode left us with so many questions. Are we our memories? We seem to be more – the “basic nature” you mention in your review. If we remove memories and later add them back to a different set, who are we then? In this one episode, we see Connor 2.0, a flash of Connor 1.0 and at the end – perhaps a whole new Connor – version 3, as it were. Will version 3 be just a happy as Connor 2.0 – but perhaps wiser? He has now been provided with 2 complete sets of memory. As you said, what a shame that we won’t get a chance to see him continue to find their context and motivation.
I also just keep thinking we haven’t seen the last of the context as far as Wes goes. I hope that in episodes to come we will continue to see the ripples from his returned memories. What it means to his relationship with Angel. And what about the other remaining fang gang that may (or may not yet) remember Connor - Lorne and Gunn? ‘Cuz, the title – Origin – seems to mean that we’ve now dug down through all the layers to get to the start, and the heart, of it all.
Lola
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Post by SpringSummers on Apr 26, 2004 20:54:12 GMT -5
Good job, eg.
I am in definite agreement with your well-expressed thoughts about people being "who they are" independent of their memories - with the "Connor-sameness" being our central example. Good, relevant mention of Tabula Rasa. I liked it!!
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Post by makd on Apr 27, 2004 10:11:59 GMT -5
Hi, Erin - Terrific review! I really enjoyed your analysis of this episode. Your comments added to my enjoyment and understanding of it. Most of my comments about this episode are already on the main board. So, what's new? I really got into your ideas about Connor - exclusive of memory. Who he REALLY is, what kind of PERSON he is, without memories attached: ethical, fair, strong, protective of family, oh, and, yes, that niggling attraction to strong older women. ('Course, they were supposed to fix THAT.) Then, I got to thinking about what kinds of people everyone in the 'verse is without their memories, and, exclusive of folks like Maggie and Ethan, most of 'em are really wonderful people. Joss has created a whole bunch of likable, strong, wonderful people we love visiting for....hours...every day. Bummers on The WB. We won't get to see ANY of them, I suspect, aside from DVD and syndication. (With everyone getting other jobs, and Joss engrossed in Firefly and X-Men 3 [or whatever number], comic books, and graphic novels, I don't think we'll see much more of the j-verse on tv for awhile.     ) Enrobing, Lighting a candle, Intoning with outstretched arms: Please, Goddess of the Airwaves, hear our plea! At least 6 Angel movies this coming season and a spin-off that runs for 10 years.....It's not much to ask; it's not like we're asking for the impossible, like World Peace, or a cure for the common cold and all illness, and happiness for everyone. (oops! NO MORE JASMINE, okay.... BTDT) Thanks, Erin! Great job! |
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Post by Queen E on Apr 27, 2004 17:01:07 GMT -5
Great review, Erin! Which are the real memories and which are the fake? Are either set of Connor’s or Wes’ memories really fake or really real? Are they both real – and, if they are, are they also both fake? I seem to be “soaking” in thoughts about memory. Today I went to see the movie Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind and it just resonated with so many of the discussions we have been having here at S3. Really, this episode left us with so many questions. Are we our memories? We seem to be more – the “basic nature” you mention in your review. If we remove memories and later add them back to a different set, who are we then? In this one episode, we see Connor 2.0, a flash of Connor 1.0 and at the end – perhaps a whole new Connor – version 3, as it were. Will version 3 be just a happy as Connor 2.0 – but perhaps wiser? He has now been provided with 2 complete sets of memory. As you said, what a shame that we won’t get a chance to see him continue to find their context and motivation. I also just keep thinking we haven’t seen the last of the context as far as Wes goes. I hope that in episodes to come we will continue to see the ripples from his returned memories. What it means to his relationship with Angel. And what about the other remaining fang gang that may (or may not yet) remember Connor - Lorne and Gunn? ‘Cuz, the title – Origin – seems to mean that we’ve now dug down through all the layers to get to the start, and the heart, of it all. Lola I hope there's time... As to Connor, in many ways he parallels (in reverse) the normal, growing-up process. Innocence, experience, and integration. Except, he got all screwed up by having a hellish childhood innocent of anything good, which was replaced by a "fake" one of balance and relatively normality. He may never be as "happy" as he once was, but who ever is? I think version 3 Connor will become "a hell of a man" to paraphrase Spike: emphathetic and nonjudgemental. |
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Post by Queen E on Apr 27, 2004 17:06:08 GMT -5
Hi, Erin - Terrific review! I really enjoyed your analysis of this episode. Your comments added to my enjoyment and understanding of it. Most of my comments about this episode are already on the main board. So, what's new? I really got into your ideas about Connor - exclusive of memory. Who he REALLY is, what kind of PERSON he is, without memories attached: ethical, fair, strong, protective of family, oh, and, yes, that niggling attraction to strong older women. ('Course, they were supposed to fix THAT.) Then, I got to thinking about what kinds of people everyone in the 'verse is without their memories, and, exclusive of folks like Maggie and Ethan, most of 'em are really wonderful people. Joss has created a whole bunch of likable, strong, wonderful people we love visiting for....hours...every day. Bummers on The WB. We won't get to see ANY of them, I suspect, aside from DVD and syndication. (With everyone getting other jobs, and Joss engrossed in Firefly and X-Men 3 [or whatever number], comic books, and graphic novels, I don't think we'll see much more of the j-verse on tv for awhile. ) Enrobing, Lighting a candle, Intoning with outstretched arms: Please, Goddess of the Airwaves, hear our plea! At least 6 Angel movies this coming season and a spin-off that runs for 10 years.....It's not much to ask; it's not like we're asking for the impossible, like World Peace, or a cure for the common cold and all illness, and happiness for everyone. (oops! NO MORE JASMINE, okay.... BTDT) Thanks, Erin! Great job! I couldn't have done it without all of you guys; your comments spark thoughts in my tired brain. I'm still in denial about the cancellation. I keep hoping against hope that the WB will pull another 11th hour renewal out of their...hats. Glad you like the review; I was a little worried about the personal anecdote...was worried it was boring or stupid. What can I say? I love examples. |
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Post by Karen on Apr 28, 2004 12:19:22 GMT -5
I couldn't have done it without all of you guys; your comments spark thoughts in my tired brain. I'm still in denial about the cancellation. I keep hoping against hope that the WB will pull another 11th hour renewal out of their...hats. Glad you like the review; I was a little worried about the personal anecdote...was worried it was boring or stupid. What can I say? I love examples. I love examples, Erin. And I loved your review - especially: I love this observation. You stated very well what I was feeling and thinking about the FG's memory holes and how those holes have been affecting them. I think the FG is going to need all the power they can get to face down W&H's evilness. |
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Post by LadyDi on Apr 28, 2004 15:01:07 GMT -5
Hey, Erin! I also loved your reference to Tabula Rasa. Buffy et al. were more themselves than ever under the spell's influence. No memories = no baggage.
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Post by Patti - S'cubie Cutie on Apr 29, 2004 22:44:09 GMT -5
Erin, I loved your review. I finally was settled down enough to read it tonight - I like your writing style so much, as you know. Also what you said was insightful and interesting. I enjoyed your personal antecdote - (and I'm a little claustrophic myself), and I'm fairly intimidated that you know how many times the term 'cranky' was used...in the life of BOTH SERIES! Are you trying to compete with Sue?  Good job Erin! |
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Post by Queen E on Apr 30, 2004 10:33:55 GMT -5
Erin, I loved your review. I finally was settled down enough to read it tonight - I like your writing style so much, as you know. Also what you said was insightful and interesting. I enjoyed your personal antecdote - (and I'm a little claustrophic myself), and I'm fairly intimidated that you know how many times the term 'cranky' was used...in the life of BOTH SERIES! Are you trying to compete with Sue? Good job Erin! Nobody can compete with Sue! The "cranky" just sounded so Willow, I had to point it out. And thanks for your feedback on the personal anecdote. I was a wee bit afraid I was "oversharing" or being "self-absorbed." |
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Post by KMInfinity on May 2, 2004 11:15:03 GMT -5
Great review, Erin. I love the title, especially. As Angel winds down, I've been reflecting a bit, and am just in awe of all the subtext and layers in even an "average" or "poor' episode. And I'm impressed with how much you reviewers spot each week. Yet, what makes the Jossverse so special is the fact that all the icing and gravy aren't there to cover up the missing goodness of the fundamentals. (Sorry for my hacked metaphors.  ) |
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Post by Queen E on May 10, 2004 14:28:05 GMT -5
Great review, Erin. I love the title, especially. As Angel winds down, I've been reflecting a bit, and am just in awe of all the subtext and layers in even an "average" or "poor' episode. And I'm impressed with how much you reviewers spot each week. Yet, what makes the Jossverse so special is the fact that all the icing and gravy aren't there to cover up the missing goodness of the fundamentals. (Sorry for my hacked metaphors. ) No hack. Hell, I hacked my title from a song, so... ...I love watching these episodes with an eye toward what lies beneath, to those small moments of continuity, etc. When Angel the series goes away, I can think of very little on TV worth watching that will give me back so much. Sigh. |
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