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Post by deborah on May 4, 2004 14:54:09 GMT -5
Hi Makd.
I read your wonderful, witty, comical, and insightful review last night and this morning. All the keen thought and heartfelt sentiment you poured into it really came through.
Re your list of issues that need to but won't necessarily be resolved by the end of the series - it included some I would exclude and excluded others that are important to me. Namely, I quite like Spike's look. Although I wouldn't be averse to a bit of variation (which he did have on BtVS, even if it was just the occasional button down added to or replacing his usual black T-shirt) his wardrobe and hairstyle aren't anywhere near the top of my list. And I'd replace the question about whether Spike would find a new love with the need for some sort of resolution with Buffy. Will he let her know he's alive? If so, what will be the outcome of her discovery? That's what I'm both fearful and eager to see.
Unfortunately, as for the rest of your sharp insights concerning the themes in the series; all the plot lines they cast and must now try to resolve, it's really hard for me to keep any of it straight in my head. It makes sense when I'm watching the show - certain things will jump out at me and I'll recognize a tie to a certain theme. Or when I'm reading other posts or reviews such as yours it will make sense to me as I'm reading it. But it rarely sticks. My brain is teflon coated and and after a good night's sleep any new thoughts from the day before tend to just have slipped right out. The only constants in my slippery little brain is Spike pretty, and Spike, face Buffy already.
Anyway, I never expected to see him pursuing any other serious love interest this Season and would have felt betrayed if he had. Maybe after dealing with his unresolved issues with Buffy, in a S6 that will never be, he would have been ready by then. (And I freely admit that personally speaking, I may never be ready, but I allow that he might have been ready.) But not this Season.
deborah
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Post by makd on May 5, 2004 13:22:05 GMT -5
Oh, neat! Angel as Lord Shiva, counterpart to Illyria, I love it, you're absolutely spot on. I'm also loving the Spikanalysis. And "He’s getting felt up as a corporate puppet", ;D! Thank you! Anne and Lola thank you for the kind words: "We endeavor to amuse" (Using the editorial, not the royal, we.) Anne - glad you got the Lord Shiva imagery for Angel. I've watched this episode about a dozen times, and everytime they land in the torture-basement, I watch Angel do his Lord Shiva dance, leather duster flying. He's no longer "handsome man saves me." Now, he's "dance partner/rival/foe who dances to destroy/create". Maybe, if there's a season 6 or some pulp fiction, or a movie, we will see the development of that story. We all knew Fred was smarter than Angel. Hell, she's smarter than 60% of the world!, but Angel was always her hero. It would've been interesting to see them as equals.... Damn the WB! Thing is, Angel's a good partner for Illyria! (of course, so is Spike! He loves to dance, to fight, and, well, you know - THAT other thing he loves to do, to!) Warning: I am about to engage in a good round of Patti-itis, as I endeavor to answer as many responses as possible before I have to leave for home...
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Post by makd on May 5, 2004 13:25:26 GMT -5
Yes - loved the way you used words in this, makd - apocalypting? I was smiling already. On Angel integrating his two selves - You mention that he is already doing this, and my thought is that he is kinda, only he hasn't realized that yet, and he's going to have to consciously realize it to control it, or the demon will take over. I definitely don't agree with the notion that the integration has already taken place off screen. He isn't tapping into his Inner Demon as a resource, his Inner Demon is tapping into him. It's kind of the opposite of what Spike went through. Spike had this unacknowledged goodness in him that he tries to ignore and deny. He disdains it. But the chip and Buffy love let it grow. But it is all screwed up. He doesn't really understand what is happening to him and he isn't controlling it. He's hurting others, he's getting hurt and he's a mess . . . it isn't until the drama of the attempted rape that he realizes that the goodness is a real part of him, and he must accept it fully to be whole and in control, and he goes to get his soul. Now, he's openly fighting for the good guys, no longer denying that part of himself. For Angel, he has an inner demon he denies. His immersion in W&H has let it begin to grow. He's a mess right now. Something - and I kind of suspect that without a Season 6, this won't get resolved - but something has to happen to send him - not to Africa to get his soul, but to his "basement" to get his demon . . . consciously, willfully. He needs to take full responsibility for his Angelus and everything Angelus has ever done - and then he can truly harness that power. He has to stop being the Angel who says to Wes, "sorry for what happened, but that was Angelus who did that, not me." Then he'll be fully Angel, and as you said, we'll still love him. And he'll love himself. You may be right, Spring. (But then, in matters of Spike and Angel, you usually are.) Problem is, we'll never know if he did integrate the two selves there isn't a season 6 or a SERIES of TV movies or pulp fiction. Angel will always exist, as he will be in the finale...and that's too bad... Of course, we haven't seen the finale, so who knows? At any rate, you've given me food for thought, and I'll start digesting now. (erm; was that TMI?)
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Post by makd on May 5, 2004 13:47:48 GMT -5
By the end of this episode, Angel is grabbing the power, making the hard decisions, and going with Amanda’s free choice, rather than making the choice for her. It's not free choice if it is not informed choice. Gunn got interupted before he could finish saying 'sacrifice', she didnt know about the uring and panda meat, maybe if someone explained all the clauses without the foreign language she would make a different choice. That is part of what experts do- translate the technical language to the words that will be understood by the client. Of course in this case 'client' is the problem, because the bad guys are the client. And maybe Angel shouldn't be distracted by the small stuff, but the correct solution in a HUGE and *multitasking* corporation is to delegate the explaining things bit to someone else. Angel was asked not to represent either side in this contract, but to *witness* it. To stand by and let things happen. Indeed to 'sign as witness for the firm', as in being a representative of the Wolf, Ram and Hart. Also firm as the specific word, not business as used earlier. Like standing firm? But he isn't. The firm, W&H, has managed to stay unchanged here. Angel has been weak and changed to fit. Witness is not Champion. Doyle: “I mean think of all the daytime people you could help between 9 and 5.”
Angel: “They have help. The whole world is designed for them, so much that they have no idea what goes on around them after dark. They don’t see the weak ones lost in the night, - or the things that prey on them. And if I join them, maybe I’d stop seeing, too.”He has been living in the sun times for a while now- and either he has stopped seeing, or worse, he still sees but he chooses not to do anything about it. Her rescue of Gunn, which opened the episode, was swift, clean, surgical.er, not so much. Hamilton's little account of the damage, remember? Once she *found* Gunn it was pretty quick, but she went through 11 torture units first. you go from listing the ways that Illyria does control time to saying that she cannot. is a bit unclear what your meaning is. watch and compass, time and space yes, but walkie talkie is staying connected despite changes in time and space, and Angel in turning off his end, shutting out his team as he focuses on a problem, made that impossible. no walk and talk at the same time? know where you are or where your going? physics. (i've been awake too long) Gotta disagree with you on this one, BE. People make decisions every day - important decisions - that impact on them, their loved ones, others, the world, even. It's not always possible to know everything before one makes "an informed decision". And, yet decisions must be made. Let's make an hypothetical: If I'd known everything relative to having children, would I have chosen to have children? Would I have chosen the spacing, the numbers, the gender (possible now, with amnio.) What would my decision have been? Without knowing the future (which:impossible), I actually made the free choice, and I'm more than delighted with my choice. But what's important: I made the choice with the knowledge available to me at that time. Free will doesn't mean you know all you have to know; it doesn't mean you know all you need to know; it doesn't mean you know ANYTHING. It only means that YOU decide. Rational choice is a possibility with free will; it's not a requirement. Rational choice is a matter of ethics; free choice is not. As for Angel witnessing Amanda's decision: that also relates to free choice. I spent 5 years as a State Certified Mediator. Part of that role was to witness people's decisions regarding matters of contention between them and others. The decision for resolution came from the clients not the mediators. Indeed, it's considered improper to coerce a client into a decision. We could advise the client of her rights, as Gunn was doing; we could not make the decision for her. We could also advise the client that her/his decision might not be in their best interests, long-term, but the final decision on resolution was always the clients, regardless of how WE felt about it. It was all about helping clients to reach resolution THEIR way; about empowering them to make their own decisions. Sometimes their decisions were not what we would do; sometimes they acted against what seemed to be their own best interests. In every case though, the important fact was their making resolution THEIR way. And that is free choice. Free choice means the opportunity to make one's own choice -- even if it's all wrong. Angel can always come back when the kid's older and, with evidence to the contrary (that the kid's not going to be sacrificed), take the kid back. For now, he's doing the corporate expedient thing. He's keeping his eyes on the prize, which is what he should be doing now. Illyria doesn't control time, of course. Time's passage is pretty much beyond "control"; however, she does have the ability to time-dance (to time travel), and that gives her a measure of control that our boys don't have. Hmm. Thanks for pointing out the unclear about Illyria in the Holding Dimension. I meant to say that her removing Gunn from the torture basement was neat, clean, yadda yadda. This is exactly why we need betas, isn't it? (Remember,"A Funny Thing Happened At The Forum"? There's a song there: "Everybody Ought to Have a Maid". Maybe we should re-write it to be, "Every writer ought to have a beta.") anyway, thanks for picking that out; had I noticed it ahead of time, I'd have corrected it. You're The Bomb for finding it and telling me!
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Post by makd on May 5, 2004 14:09:57 GMT -5
Beautifully done review, makd. I particularly love the insights you brought about how Spike has dealt with a god before, and thereby knows how one thinks.. brilliant! Did I miss you posting this on the main board, or were you saving this up for just this purpose? Thank you for the nice words. (You do, you know..say the nicest words. [um, and some of the other words, too. I like the other words, too.]) I was saving up the goodies. I wanted to surprise youall. The same on the pointing out his understanding of Wes in the "If any part of her were still Buffy" thing. Made me sit up and go "duh!" at myself. This is why I'm needed. Next episode, you will point out something and I will go "d'uh". That's how it works with us great minds. Also: on Lorne's Fedora? Not only did it go fetchingly with his skin, his code name of "Secret Demon" made me think that Edlund, known for his work on "the Tick" (Another great cancelled series... in both incarnations) is giving a nod to "Secret Squirrel" a secret agent type that wore a purple fedora (granted, down over his eyes, with convenient eyeholes cut out) and a tan trenchcoat, in a cartoon that had a renaissance (or reconasence, as Buffy would put it) on "The Cartoon Network" (I so need to dig out my Chigago manual of style so I can actually figure out whatinhell is s'posed to be capitalized, or put in quote marks.. sigh.. ) a few years back. erm. See above. D'uh. Thank you. I was wondering what's the what with the "secret squirrel" comments on the main board. Being older, and not getting the references (kinda like Angel), I could only fall back on Bullwinkle, Get Smart, and the Pink Panther. I echo, slightly, Bec'liz's confusion on your statments about Illyria and time, though, as she appeared to me to be out of control, very billy-pilgrimish, the entire time. So to speak. See my response to BE in the posting just above (or very near) this one. And yeah, so very Billy Pilgrimish. I recalled bits and pieces of that book, but not enough to incorporate into the review. Speaking of which, Kurt Vonnegut is probably the only scifi writer I've read more than three books by. Saw him in Manhattan a few years ago. OK: QUITE a few years ago. He was...fuzzy...I mean...a bit spacey... Very polite, very nice, very appreciative of the nice words of thanks I gave him for his writing. Not happy that I hadn't read ALL his books, and curious about why MY favorite of his books was Player Piano, not Slaughterhouse 5 (which was everyone else's favorite.) And it's "y'all": a one-syllable word that rhymes with "awl". Sheesh. Yankees. Hello? Northeasterner by way of Northern Appalachia, here....WE don't say "y'all", youall do! We don't drawl it! We "clip" it out, hence: youall. And, for Gran? It was, "you lot", her being a working class Brit. No! Don't kill me!!!! Pleeeeasse!!! Would never; there's way too much love for that. ('Course, O. Wilde might disagree, but he's dead, so big deal on him.) And you speak for me too, on appreciation for the talents and efforts of the people behind Angel and Buffy and Firefly. Your tribute touched me greatly. Thank you. -Matthew
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Post by makd on May 5, 2004 14:16:54 GMT -5
My confused thoughts: Well - it seems to me you've got to see the trees, and the forest. The danger in only looking only at the Big Picture is that you aren't realizing that the Big Pic is made up of the smaller pics, and you're not paying attention to the details making up the Big Pic - and suddenly, you've got a Big Pic you don't really want, and you don't know why. The danger in looking at just the details is that you may not realize the Big Pic you are building, and how things are fitting together to build a whole. And suddenly, you've got a Big Pic you don't want. It's about doing both, staying aware of both, then making your conscious choice. Once again: in warfare, you must keep the big picture to the forefront. Don't forget the trees, of course, but the forest is the priority. Generals and leaders concentrate on the forest. The platoons concentrate on the trees. Angel is a general. He needs to rely on Gunn, etc., to watch over the trees. Problem: right now, the trees are distracting from winning the forest. He'll get back to them, I'm sure. How can I be so sure? There are three episodes to go, and Joss's rules are: 1. THERE ARE NO HAPPY LOVERS - FOR MORE THAN ONE SEASON - IN THE JOSSVERSE. 2. CHILDREN ARE ALWAYS SAVED, UNLESS THEY DON'T HAVE A SOUL. THE EXCEPTION TO THIS RULE WAS DANA, WHO WAS SENT TO THE SLAYERS TO HEAL. BUT:JOSS' RULE:SHE DIDN'T DIE. 3. IT DOESN'T MATTER WHAT CRAP YOU'VE DONE, IF YOU HAVE A SOUL IT WILL BE FORGIVEN YOU. 4. MEN LEAVE; WOMEN DIE OR ARE POSSESSED BY "SOME THING THAT CRAWLS INSIDE AND VIOLATES" THEM. 4. EVERYBODY PLAYS A ROUND OF KICK-THE-SPIKE.
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Post by makd on May 5, 2004 14:29:01 GMT -5
Loved the review, pet, but you've got to quit obsessing over Spike's look. That duster's d*mn expensive! Personally, I love Spike's look. Leave the inconsequential changes to Angel....Oops, did I say that out loud? Oh, my darlin' Lady Di! I know, I know!! I have this obsesson to do makeovers! shallow, much? Lady Di: this is for you: hope you find it funny. (Those who have enjoyed the videos at That Site will appreciate the sendup of "whatever" in the riff that follows. All sentences must end in an interrogative to really appreciate the riff.) I wanted to re-do Angel's hair until S4, AtS, when he finally got a good hairstylist? I looked at his trainers in S2, and so wanted to send him a really nice pair of non-child-sewn trainers? You know, the ones not made by little kids in factories abroad? trainers without the yellow soles? Then, I realized the yellow soles were endearing, as they reminded me of his soul? Which was so bright and brilliant, kinda like the shoes? And, Cordelia: I really wanted to re-draw the lipstick line?....and the eyebrows? which I thought her makeup was just so hard and heavy? but then decided it was done that way to deflect the women watching from noticing that their husbands/lovers/partners (all three, sometimes?) were watching Cordelia's T&A? And, Spike? I noticed how pretty he looked in Seasons 2-5 of BtVS? when he wasn't banging having sex with Buffy? but then, as soon as they started doing the horizontal two-step, he was suddenly not looking as pretty, but she was looking better? LD, I could go on with this riff for awhile; it's such fun being a mallista, but, I do get it; really I do. I am obsessed with changing Spike's look, so he'll look more current, more cool, less stuck-in-time. I love Spike, and I so want everyone else watching TV to love our Spikey, too. The thing is, in fanfic and in pulp fic, he still looks great, 'cause: he can look 25 forever! In BtVS, he looked great, and he did have other looks! In AtS, S5, he's had one look, and it's seemed dated and, well, a caricature of himself... I, well, I'd apologize for my obsession,but it'd be awkward. ;D love you, and I'll do my best to control the obsession. (At least I'm obsessed with the way Spike's dressed, and not with The Actor Who Plays Him. Also, I could be a tad jealous because he get his hair cut for free and I have to pay $65.00 [but they are GREAT haircuts!! ])
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Post by makd on May 5, 2004 14:44:41 GMT -5
Hi Makd. I read your wonderful, witty, comical, and insightful review last night and this morning. All the keen thought and heartfelt sentiment you poured into it really came through. Re your list of issues that need to but won't necessarily be resolved by the end of the series - it included some I would exclude and excluded others that are important to me. Namely, I quite like Spike's look. Although I wouldn't be averse to a bit of variation (which he did have on BtVS, even if it was just the occasional button down added to or replacing his usual black T-shirt) his wardrobe and hairstyle aren't anywhere near the top of my list. And I'd replace the question about whether Spike would find a new love with the need for some sort of resolution with Buffy. Will he let her know he's alive? If so, what will be the outcome of her discovery? That's what I'm both fearful and eager to see. Unfortunately, as for the rest of your sharp insights concerning the themes in the series; all the plot lines they cast and must now try to resolve, it's really hard for me to keep any of it straight in my head. It makes sense when I'm watching the show - certain things will jump out at me and I'll recognize a tie to a certain theme. Or when I'm reading other posts or reviews such as yours it will make sense to me as I'm reading it. But it rarely sticks. My brain is teflon coated and and after a good night's sleep any new thoughts from the day before tend to just have slipped right out. The only constants in my slippery little brain is Spike pretty, and Spike, face Buffy already. Anyway, I never expected to see him pursuing any other serious love interest this Season and would have felt betrayed if he had. Maybe after dealing with his unresolved issues with Buffy, in a S6 that will never be, he would have been ready by then. (And I freely admit that personally speaking, I may never be ready, but I allow that he might have been ready.) But not this Season. deborah Well, I'm always gonna be in disagreement with those who like the Spike Look To Be Permanent, so I accept that. Though, I'm sure that, if they saw Spike appear in a suit and hanging tie (untied tie) OR a pair of jeans and a nice shirt (kinda the way he was dressed in many episodes of BtVS in S5 and in S7), with a buzzed head/short hair that wasn't dyed, they'd love it because they love Spike and The Actor Who Plays Him. (hey, think he has a symbol, like Prince - or, the Singer Formerly Known as Prince?) However, ITA your last paragraph. I so did not want him to rush into another amour, since that would have detracted from the spuffy. However, I want Spike to move on to someone who won't kick him, play games with him, beat him up, be ashamed of him, deny the relationship to others, and all the other things that Buffy did that were negative. If Joss wants spuffy, then, fine; I'm there with it. I just don't want the Jman to jerk me around with promises. If he believes that relationship should continue, then go for it, man! Based on the trailers for next week's episode, we're gonna find out if we should move on or support the 'ship. If there'd been a season 6, I'd have expected (in the dark recesses of my humble and oh so warped mind) that Angel would have hooked up with Nina (and I am still hoping; there are 3 episodes left, and 3 weeks for Angel and Nina to get it on...), and that Spike would have hooked up with someone. TV Guide indicated in September or October that ME was looking for "a love interest" for Spike. So far, the only "taker" on this has been Angel.... I'd have hoped that, come Season 6, there would've been someone new or someone Joss' would have brought back, to connect with Spike. pfft. grr. argh. zeet. At least there's fanfic. for spuffy: I can always find a nicer Buffy and a good story; I can find Spike paired with ANYONE and a good story. (He's so versatile; like a good, basic handbag or a really nifty, well-made trenchcoat; or a pair of solid metal (silver/gold/platinum) hoops. Goes with everyone. Goes with everything. Goes anywhere. hmm. He even goes alone.... (Maybe I shouldn't go THERE.)
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Post by LadyDi on May 5, 2004 15:43:12 GMT -5
Well, I'm always gonna be in disagreement with those who like the Spike Look To Be Permanent, so I accept that. Though, I'm sure that, if they saw Spike appear in a suit and hanging tie (untied tie) OR a pair of jeans and a nice shirt (kinda the way he was dressed in many episodes of BtVS in S5 and in S7), with a buzzed head/short hair that wasn't dyed, they'd love it because they love Spike and The Actor Who Plays Him. (hey, think he has a symbol, like Prince - or, the Singer Formerly Known as Prince?) However, ITA your last paragraph. I so did not want him to rush into another amour, since that would have detracted from the spuffy. However, I want Spike to move on to someone who won't kick him, play games with him, beat him up, be ashamed of him, deny the relationship to others, and all the other things that Buffy did that were negative. If Joss wants spuffy, then, fine; I'm there with it. I just don't want the Jman to jerk me around with promises. If he believes that relationship should continue, then go for it, man! Based on the trailers for next week's episode, we're gonna find out if we should move on or support the 'ship. If there'd been a season 6, I'd have expected (in the dark recesses of my humble and oh so warped mind) that Angel would have hooked up with Nina (and I am still hoping; there are 3 episodes left, and 3 weeks for Angel and Nina to get it on...), and that Spike would have hooked up with someone. TV Guide indicated in September or October that ME was looking for "a love interest" for Spike. So far, the only "taker" on this has been Angel.... I'd have hoped that, come Season 6, there would've been someone new or someone Joss' would have brought back, to connect with Spike. pfft. grr. argh. zeet. At least there's fanfic. for spuffy: I can always find a nicer Buffy and a good story; I can find Spike paired with ANYONE and a good story. (He's so versatile; like a good, basic handbag or a really nifty, well-made trenchcoat; or a pair of solid metal (silver/gold/platinum) hoops. Goes with everyone. Goes with everything. Goes anywhere. hmm. He even goes alone.... (Maybe I shouldn't go THERE.) I think one more rule needs to be added to your earlier list. No couple is canonically over until they've had a "one last time." Think about it: Angel/Buffy, Willow/Tara, Xander/Anya (who got 3 or 4), and Spike/Harmony. As for s6 of BtVS, Buffy did do some terrible things. OTOH, getting thru all that was part of what makes their 'ship so compelling. Hearts and Flowers just don't feature in the Jossverse. It matters more that they could forgive each other. The worst is over.
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Post by SpringSummers on May 5, 2004 15:58:28 GMT -5
I think one more rule needs to be added to your earlier list. No couple is canonically over until they've had a "one last time." Think about it: Angel/Buffy, Willow/Tara, Xander/Anya (who got 3 or 4), and Spike/Harmony. As for s6 of BtVS, Buffy did do some terrible things. OTOH, getting thru all that was part of what makes their 'ship so compelling. Hearts and Flowers just don't feature in the Jossverse. It matters more that they could forgive each other. The worst is over. Agree the worst is over,. And - my guess? That "scene we didn't see" in the Buffy-basement, the night before Spike turned to ashes is what we are suppose to count as the "one last time."
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Post by makd on May 5, 2004 16:54:03 GMT -5
I think one more rule needs to be added to your earlier list. No couple is canonically over until they've had a "one last time." Think about it: Angel/Buffy, Willow/Tara, Xander/Anya (who got 3 or 4), and Spike/Harmony. Ah...I am inclined to agree with Spring here. (What else is new?) Joss did say recently in an interview that B/S supposedly "got it on" in the basement the night before the big battle, so...there you are, LadyDi: it's over except for the moaning...... which also means that B/A is over, too. They got it on in LA, in IWRY. And it doesn't say I will return to you; it's I'll remember you. Well...about 3 hours to go. then all will be clear... RRRIIIGGGHHHTTT.
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Post by LadyDi on May 5, 2004 19:59:17 GMT -5
Ah...I am inclined to agree with Spring here. (What else is new?) Joss did say recently in an interview that B/S supposedly "got it on" in the basement the night before the big battle, so...there you are, LadyDi: it's over except for the moaning...... which also means that B/A is over, too. They got it on in LA, in IWRY. And it doesn't say I will return to you; it's I'll remember you. Well...about 3 hours to go. then all will be clear... RRRIIIGGGHHHTTT. Major confusion...I thought Joss was adamant Buffy and Spike did NOT do the deed that night (or at all in s7). Besides, does it count if we didn't see it? Not for me. All those other examples were very obvious. That's the point. *See, it's really over.*
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Post by SpringSummers on May 6, 2004 15:45:43 GMT -5
Major confusion...I thought Joss was adamant Buffy and Spike did NOT do the deed that night (or at all in s7). Besides, does it count if we didn't see it? Not for me. All those other examples were very obvious. That's the point. *See, it's really over.* Joss was adamant Buffy & Spike did not do the deed that night? I'm not saying he wasn't, just saying I don't remember that . . . what comments are you thinking of? Joss does some commentary on the Season 7 DVD . . . I think it was transcribed over at Buffy.nu, maybe. Anyhow, that is where he says (makd, correct me if I'm wrong here) that his intention was to show Buffy loved Spike at the end of Chosen, and his feeling was that they did get together the night before. Also, I thought that was the implication (though vague) of what we saw. They are all sweet to each other in the basement after the Angel-encounter. She gives him the amulet. Later he is looking at the amulet. She comes in and he immediately drops it and stands up to meet her. They both know they might not survive the next day. They are going to spend the night in the same bed together. So - there is definite room for interpretation - but I thought the implication was more that they made love than that they didn't.
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Post by makd on the run on May 6, 2004 19:03:30 GMT -5
Joss was adamant Buffy & Spike did not do the deed that night? I'm not saying he wasn't, just saying I don't remember that . . . what comments are you thinking of? Joss does some commentary on the Season 7 DVD . . . I think it was transcribed over at Buffy.nu, maybe. Anyhow, that is where he says (makd, correct me if I'm wrong here) that his intention was to show Buffy loved Spike at the end of Chosen, and his feeling was that they did get together the night before. Also, I thought that was the implication (though vague) of what we saw. They are all sweet to each other in the basement after the Angel-encounter. She gives him the amulet. Later he is looking at the amulet. She comes in and he immediately drops it and stands up to meet her. They both know they might not survive the next day. They are going to spend the night in the same bed together. So - there is definite room for interpretation - but I thought the implication was more that they made love than that they didn't. ITA, Spring. From what I'd read - same sources - Joss said that Buffy and Spike did "get it on" in the basement the night before the big battle,but he wanted to leave viewers the option of using their imagination about the specifics, etc. IMHO, I suspect the episode was shot in a hurry, JM was leery of doing yet another sex scene, SMG would've preferred a scene with DB (She's a Bangel, and, from the commentary, didn't really "get" B/S.), and Joss ended up saying, WTF; let the viewers imagine it; they know....
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Post by LadyDi on May 8, 2004 15:28:58 GMT -5
Since I haven't read the commentary, I can't really comment on that. I didn't get the impression Buffy and Spike had been intimate (nor did my friend Heather, who watched the ep with me), and JM has said he was surprised Buffy and Spike weren't more affectionate towards the end. Also, there's the whole "Luke & Laura" thing. Personally, I think that's kind of stupid, because a)soap opera and 2) Laura never beat the ever-lovin' crap out of Luke in an alley. No. We had a very clear one last time btwn Buffy and Soulless Spike in As You Were. If Buffy comes to L.A. to visit (offscreen), I think it will be cool to imagine a Buffy and Spike reunion as we would.
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