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Post by William the Bloody on Jun 30, 2003 6:18:20 GMT -5
Let the discussion begin!
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Post by Karen on Jun 30, 2003 10:30:41 GMT -5
Let the discussion begin! First - don't like to be first.  Excellent analysis! Lots of food for thought, Spring. (And I do so NOT "substitute the telly for real life experiences" - well, maybe a little, especially when real life gets TOO real.) I especially liked your "because when we lose others, we lose a part of ourselves." I think is a constant theme throughout Buffy. We see this time and again when the characters either *actually* lose each other (as when Joyce dies, Angel leaves, Buffy leaves (twice)or just lose touch (Giles goes away, Willow gets "preoccupied"). But when we lose a part of ourselves, we have to fill the void - hopefully, find something that helps us grow - make us stronger. Riley becomes stronger after he loses his serrogate mother (Maggie) and family (the Initiative) - tries to fill the void, with Buffy, with vampires, but eventually realizes that that is not going to work - and is strong enough to leave, to find himself. When Buffy loses Angel, her mom, then Riley, her life, she tries to fill the void she feels inside with Spike (later). Who was very willing and able. She really does "use" him, although she fights it all the way. She eventually finds her way, finds herself, with the help of Spike, because even though she might fight her feelings for "evil" Spike - even Buffy realizes in the end that the good he has done, the *what* he is, changes him to the *who* he is - someone worthy of her love. Anyway, getting off-subject. And then Spike, like you said has lost everything, Drusilla, his vampire identity. His struggle will be the most interesting part of BtVS from here on out, to me. Lots of other stuff there to digest, but better get some real work done today.  |
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Post by Queen E on Jun 30, 2003 10:58:31 GMT -5
Spring:
As always, really nice work.
I watched this episode this weekend and noticed something interesting about the crypt scene. Not to get to Freudian, but I thought it was *cough*interesting*cough* positioning that Spike did as he hid from the Initiative guys. As he emerges from the crypt, he is coming out from between the legs of the woman laid to rest there. Perhaps a metaphor for his "rebirth" into a new identity? Especially since this episode features his demonic beatdown and "expulsion" from the underworld? I might be reading too much into this, but Joss rarely seems to waste an image.
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Post by SpringSummers on Jun 30, 2003 12:21:11 GMT -5
First - don't like to be first. Excellent analysis! Lots of food for thought, Spring. (And I do so NOT "substitute the telly for real life experiences" - well, maybe a little, especially when real life gets TOO real.) I especially liked your "because when we lose others, we lose a part of ourselves." I think is a constant theme throughout Buffy. We see this time and again when the characters either *actually* lose each other (as when Joyce dies, Angel leaves, Buffy leaves (twice)or just lose touch (Giles goes away, Willow gets "preoccupied"). But when we lose a part of ourselves, we have to fill the void - hopefully, find something that helps us grow - make us stronger. Riley becomes stronger after he loses his serrogate mother (Maggie) and family (the Initiative) - tries to fill the void, with Buffy, with vampires, but eventually realizes that that is not going to work - and is strong enough to leave, to find himself. When Buffy loses Angel, her mom, then Riley, her life, she tries to fill the void she feels inside with Spike (later). Who was very willing and able. She really does "use" him, although she fights it all the way. She eventually finds her way, finds herself, with the help of Spike, because even though she might fight her feelings for "evil" Spike - even Buffy realizes in the end that the good he has done, the *what* he is, changes him to the *who* he is - someone worthy of her love. Anyway, getting off-subject. And then Spike, like you said has lost everything, Drusilla, his vampire identity. His struggle will be the most interesting part of BtVS from here on out, to me. Lots of other stuff there to digest, but better get some real work done today. It is so nice to get others thoughts on these things. I watch the ep till I'm wonky, trying to understand it, then I end up a little unsure if my whirling mind has really processed it all. Buffy definitely does use Spike to try to fill the void she feels. And Spike is doing much the same. His desperate obsession with her, I think, is around his terrible need to fill that emptiness - which he has no "self" to fill. I thought that "Becoming Part II" was definitely about Buffy "losing herself" when she lost Angel (as Whistler tells her, she's got "one more" thing to lose) because she was so young, and did not have much of a "self" independently of Angel. She had invested so much there. Yes, I agree - Spike's journey has been truly fascinating! |
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Post by SpringSummers on Jun 30, 2003 12:24:53 GMT -5
Spring: As always, really nice work. I watched this episode this weekend and noticed something interesting about the crypt scene. Not to get to Freudian, but I thought it was *cough*interesting*cough* positioning that Spike did as he hid from the Initiative guys. As he emerges from the crypt, he is coming out from between the legs of the woman laid to rest there. Perhaps a metaphor for his "rebirth" into a new identity? Especially since this episode features his demonic beatdown and "expulsion" from the underworld? I might be reading too much into this, but Joss rarely seems to waste an image. Hmmm . . . very interesting. I agree this image isn't likely to be a wasted one, and my memory is that the setup goes to some trouble to identify the skeleton as female, adding more support here. I'm not sure I would go with the rebirth thing . . . maybe. We have those other images of dead things, and Maggie Walsh, Riley and Adam's mother being dead - and lots of parallels being deliberately drawn between Spike and Adam, and Riley . . . well, I'm not sure where I'm going with this, but yes - I hadn't thought of the "coming up from between the dead woman's legs" part of that image, and I do think it is likely to have some significance . . . I'm not 100% sure what . . . Spike, like Riley, suffers from an identity loss due to not having his mummy anymore? |
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Post by Queen E on Jun 30, 2003 15:11:10 GMT -5
Spike, like Riley, suffers from an identity loss due to not having his mummy anymore? Oooh, nice; I hadn't thought of that. After "Lies My Parents Told Me" we know that would definitely be an issue. |
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Post by Rob on Jul 1, 2003 23:32:02 GMT -5
Yet another marvelous analysis. One thing I've always found interesting about Goodbye Iowa is the theme of trust and family.
Riley's family, in reality, is in Iowa. In his mind, however, his truest loyalties lie with the Initiative, and when his faith is shaken in them, he has nowhere to (comfortably) turn.
Spike's family is, in essence, the demonic community. He's been ostracized by them and, like Riley, has nowhere to turn.
Buffy, on the other hand, had the rug pulled out from under her in The I In Team, and she had a support system to fall back on...people who were more than ready to risk their lives and share their homes for Riley, simply because Buffy cared for him. Her truest family had not betrayed her.
Spike understands (in a later episode) that Buffy is far more vulnerable without those she trusts, just as he was...and just as Riley was. Like any skilled practitioner of evil, he turns Buffy's greatest strength into her Achilles Heel....at least for a week.
But I'm reading ahead, aren't I? Sorry about that. It just struck me as I read the review....I think Season Four may have been about finding one's niche in life and learning to be comfortable with it. Every one of them is seeking out some kind of direction.
If you have a loving and supportive family, you can find your own path without worrying about losing those you care about most along the way. We all need the sort of people who have your back no matter what happens, even if you're a little scared of what you found out (Willow is a prime example of this).
If you don't, you're most likely lost...and generally do things you probably shouldn't as a result (Faith and Spike are prime examples of THAT).
Season Four establishes once and for all that Buffy's greatest strength is the Scooby Gang....though Season Seven went a long way in trying to tear down the very theme they're establishing here. Confusing....but there it is.
Anyway, terrific review as always. Can't wait for The Yoko Factor.
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Post by Joshua Adams on Jul 2, 2003 9:02:32 GMT -5
Yet another marvelous analysis. One thing I've always found interesting about Goodbye Iowa is the theme of trust and family. Riley's family, in reality, is in Iowa. In his mind, however, his truest loyalties lie with the Initiative, and when his faith is shaken in them, he has nowhere to (comfortably) turn. Spike's family is, in essence, the demonic community. He's been ostracized by them and, like Riley, has nowhere to turn. Buffy, on the other hand, had the rug pulled out from under her in The I In Team, and she had a support system to fall back on...people who were more than ready to risk their lives and share their homes for Riley, simply because Buffy cared for him. Her truest family had not betrayed her. Spike understands (in a later episode) that Buffy is far more vulnerable without those she trusts, just as he was...and just as Riley was. Like any skilled practitioner of evil, he turns Buffy's greatest strength into her Achilles Heel....at least for a week. But I'm reading ahead, aren't I? Sorry about that. It just struck me as I read the review....I think Season Four may have been about finding one's niche in life and learning to be comfortable with it. Every one of them is seeking out some kind of direction. If you have a loving and supportive family, you can find your own path without worrying about losing those you care about most along the way. We all need the sort of people who have your back no matter what happens, even if you're a little scared of what you found out (Willow is a prime example of this). If you don't, you're most likely lost...and generally do things you probably shouldn't as a result (Faith and Spike are prime examples of THAT). Season Four establishes once and for all that Buffy's greatest strength is the Scooby Gang....though Season Seven went a long way in trying to tear down the very theme they're establishing here. Confusing....but there it is. Anyway, terrific review as always. Can't wait for The Yoko Factor. I don't think Season Seven behaved as badly as it seemed at the time. I know I, like lots of other people on the board, definitely felt that Joss was suddenly throwing all sorts of isolationist, manifest destiny, lone warrior crap at us and degrading the value of the Scooby Gang as a family. I no longer believe this to be the case. I think we should have taken the bond between those people for granted. Looking back at the way Willow, Anya, and even Spike (relative to the way they usually treated him) were welcomed back into the fold, I think it's clear that these people consider themselves, more or less, family. When you have to go, they have to take you. Buffy has to deal with being a hero/general/chosen/whatever, and what this means in the context of her family, and the fact that they have made the choice to be a part of the good fight. Buffy has a hard time giving them the responisiblity of being a hero, becuase to her, it isn't hers to give. It was given to her. That's what seperates her from her family in the arena of fighting evil in Season Seven. It's not until the very end of the series that she takes on more responsiblity than what she is given, and then gives that not just to her friends but to hundreds of girls around the world. |
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Post by Rob on Jul 2, 2003 17:57:57 GMT -5
I don't think Season Seven behaved as badly as it seemed at the time. I know I, like lots of other people on the board, definitely felt that Joss was suddenly throwing all sorts of isolationist, manifest destiny, lone warrior crap at us and degrading the value of the Scooby Gang as a family. I no longer believe this to be the case. I think we should have taken the bond between those people for granted. Looking back at the way Willow, Anya, and even Spike (relative to the way they usually treated him) were welcomed back into the fold, I think it's clear that these people consider themselves, more or less, family. When you have to go, they have to take you. Buffy has to deal with being a hero/general/chosen/whatever, and what this means in the context of her family, and the fact that they have made the choice to be a part of the good fight. Buffy has a hard time giving them the responisiblity of being a hero, becuase to her, it isn't hers to give. It was given to her. That's what seperates her from her family in the arena of fighting evil in Season Seven. It's not until the very end of the series that she takes on more responsiblity than what she is given, and then gives that not just to her friends but to hundreds of girls around the world. That is a nice positive way of looking at it, Josh. Well said. Maybe after reviewing things after some time I'll have a more positive viewpoint of the Season Seven storyline. |
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Post by SpringSummers on Jul 2, 2003 18:26:02 GMT -5
That is a nice positive way of looking at it, Josh. Well said. Maybe after reviewing things after some time I'll have a more positive viewpoint of the Season Seven storyline. I thought Season 7 was a lot like Season 4 - in the sense that trouble brews and everyone is growing apart and isolated, and there's ultimately a big division -but then they come together, and they have to come together, to defeat the big bad in the end. In Season 4, Buffy goes off on her own by choice, rejecting her friends with words about how she understands why there is no prophecy about the Slayer and her friends- but then they make up and they fight together. In Season 7, Buffy is thrown out - but then they make up and they fight together. In this aspect, the Seasons are very similar. It is very "family-like" - you argue, you upset each other, you fall out sometimes, but in the end, you're still family. Even Spike, who can be seen as the black sheep, is still family. When, as Josh said, he has to go there, they have to take him. |
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Post by LadyDi on Jul 4, 2003 13:12:29 GMT -5
Interesting take on the S4 - S7 connection. I hadn't really looked at it that way, although I read something about Buffy's schizophrenic (or strange, can't remember the wording) season, thinking it referred to S7, but referring to S4.
I do wish Giles had been a larger part of S7. Not just because I like the character, but he could've taught Buffy more about how to be a real leader, rather than just a fighter. That's what she needed from him and didn't get.
Last quarter, I was taking an agbusiness management class and we learned a lot about what it means to be a good manager. A general is a fighter, but also a manager. I saw so many things that Buffy could've done better if she'd been given the right tools.
Slayers were meant to fight alone, but Buffy broke that mold. I guess Giles was really the manager of the team, and it would've been nice to see him pass on those lessons to Buffy as well before he left. Maybe then S7 would've been less disappointing.
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Post by fredspuffed on Jul 30, 2004 10:10:02 GMT -5
I thought buffy sayiing about spike "he's not bad anymore " she saw something that he didnt see yet and that she will forget or deny later on. just kinda erged me
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