Who Are You Discussion

[William the Bloody]

Let the discussion ensue!

[SpringSummers]

Thanks for starting this up with the nudge from Kerrie, Vlad. I came over to see what she might have written, but maybe she needs more time to chew on things.

This episode is very well done but kind of depressing.

I do love the look on Spike's face when "Buffy" says she is " a suck-up tight ass with no sense of fun!" - one of the few fun moments in this ep.

[LeeHollins]

Damn, Spring, you did it again.

I'm sorry I don't have much to say right now - I'm still trying to process your analysis. Great stuff, though, a really wonderful job.

More thoughts to come (which I'm sure people will be anxiously awaiting).

[ldelrossi]

Really wonderful analysis. I didn't notice all the "drive" comments.

"She experiences true love, trust, high expectations."

Great observation, and as you mentioned, Joyce's hug, Willow's total faith in Buffy and "Riley's combination of strength and tenderness," cause Faith's stone wall to crack a bit while she's in Buffy's body.

It is repeated many times in episodes that Buffy is stronger because of her mother, her friends, Giles and Angel; because she is connected. I remember Buffy saying it to Kendra and I think even Spike says it in one episode.

Her pummeling of Buffy is really for herself, as you said. Her face in the boxcar reveals her inner turmoil and sadness. She does revert to form when she arrives in L.A., but the crack enlarges. Her shouting at Angel to kill her as she is beating him is eerily similar to her pounding of Buffy in the church. Angel's unwillingness to kill her and then his kindness and protection in spite of what she had tried to do to him (Season 3, changing him into Angelus) cracks it further.

When Buffy arrives, Faith even tries to apologize and although Buffy rebuffs her, later, on the rooftop Buffy puts aside her hurt feelings and tries to protect Faith from the "Watcher Wet Boys." Her wall in ruins, Faith turns herself in to the police.

I really like how ME had Faith's issues are at least somewhat resolved on Angel. She was connected, albeit negatively, to both Angel and Wesley. I also like the continuation of the "redemption" idea. Angel's whole life is dedicated to seeking redemption and Faith finally realizes that she wants to change and is perhaps on the path to redemption.

[Kerrie]

This is an excellent analysis. It really makes me think.

I'll start with the more disturbing thought. Were you really trying to say that peopl's relationship with God is a bit like Tara's relationship with Willow in the sense that the power is all on one side and believers need to be content with aiting for better days if they don't like what they are getting now. I am almost embarrassed how obvious, new and disturbing this idea is to me. I never think about God in that way.

The second thought, which is not at all disurbing to me, but would surely be disturbing to others is that Riley was the deciding factor in Faith's turn-around. I don't think I quite understand why that specific interaction was so special to Faith. The others had probably softened her up. Maybe the interaction with Riley was so different to what she expected from men, in general, and Buffy's boyfriend in particular (i.e. all men just want one thing and don't care about anything else and Buffy's boy-friend would be a total wuss especially when it came to Buffy's requests).

The interaction with Spike was interesting. The similarites between these two are so strong. She likes to do it in front of an audience. So does he. Riley and Buffy do not. One thing that bothered me in the Dirty Girls interaction in the basement between Spike and Faith was that Spike was near naked and not so embarrassed about it as he had been on other occassions. I think that this was a reflection of Goddard's youth. Since getting his soul, Spike had learnt modesty - something that he and Faith had never had previously.

[SpringSummers]

Lori said:

Really wonderful analysis. I didn't notice all the "drive" comments.

"She experiences true love, trust, high expectations."

Great observation, and as you mentioned, Joyce's hug, Willow's total faith in Buffy and "Riley's combination of strength and tenderness," cause Faith's stone wall to crack a bit while she's in Buffy's body.

It is repeated many times in episodes that Buffy is stronger because of her mother, her friends, Giles and Angel; because she is connected. I remember Buffy saying it to Kendra and I think even Spike says it in one episode.

Her pummeling of Buffy is really for herself, as you said. Her face in the boxcar reveals her inner turmoil and sadness. She does revert to form when she arrives in L.A., but the crack enlarges. Her shouting at Angel to kill her as she is beating him is eerily similar to her pounding of Buffy in the church. Angel's unwillingness to kill her and then his kindness and protection in spite of what she had tried to do to him (Season 3, changing him into Angelus) cracks it further.

When Buffy arrives, Faith even tries to apologize and although Buffy rebuffs her, later, on the rooftop Buffy puts aside her hurt feelings and tries to protect Faith from the "Watcher Wet Boys." Her wall in ruins, Faith turns herself in to the police.

I really like how ME had Faith's issues are at least somewhat resolved on Angel. She was connected, albeit negatively, to both Angel and Wesley. I also like the continuation of the "redemption" idea. Angel's whole life is dedicated to seeking redemption and Faith finally realizes that she wants to change and is perhaps on the path to redemption.

Glad you enjoyed the analysis Lori, and thanks for the feedback. I have never seen the AtS shows you mention, but I did know that after Faith's experience in Sunnydale, she goes to LA where her experiences further direct her to the path of redemption.

Yes, I think a "crack" in her armor, that starts during her time in Buffy's body and then widens in LA is a good way to describe what happens to Faith.

She is a great character - I wish Eliza had agreed to a spin-off.

[SpringSummers]

Kerrie said:

This is an excellent analysis. It really makes me think.

I'll start with the more disturbing thought. Were you really trying to say that peopl's relationship with God is a bit like Tara's relationship with Willow in the sense that the power is all on one side and believers need to be content with aiting for better days if they don't like what they are getting now. I am almost embarrassed how obvious, new and disturbing this idea is to me. I never think about God in that way.

The second thought, which is not at all disurbing to me, but would surely be disturbing to others is that Riley was the deciding factor in Faith's turn-around. I don't think I quite understand why that specific interaction was so special to Faith. The others had probably softened her up. Maybe the interaction with Riley was so different to what she expected from men, in general, and Buffy's boyfriend in particular (i.e. all men just want one thing and don't care about anything else and Buffy's boy-friend would be a total wuss especially when it came to Buffy's requests).

The interaction with Spike was interesting. The similarites between these two are so strong. She likes to do it in front of an audience. So does he. Riley and Buffy do not. One thing that bothered me in the Dirty Girls interaction in the basement between Spike and Faith was that Spike was near naked and not so embarrassed about it as he had been on other occassions. I think that this was a reflection of Goddard's youth. Since getting his soul, Spike had learnt modesty - something that he and Faith had never had previously.

Kerrie - thanks for the comments. On your question: "Were you really trying to say that people's relationship with God is a bit like Tara's relationship with Willow in the sense that the power is all on one side and believers need to be content with aiting for better days if they don't like what they are getting now?"

My answer is no, I'M not trying to say that, but I think Joss is making that comparison. And personally, I do agree the comparison is legitimate . . . but limited. In other words, in the Christian tradition, the relationship between The Lord and "His people" does have an element of fear (like the vampires with Adam) and of blind faith subjugation. People do tell God "I'm yours," much as Tara tells Willow the same thing, or the vampire gang leader tells Adam "Tell me what to do."

And I think the image of the church and talk of "His people" is deliberately meant to juxtapose the images. Certainly, in the Christian tradition, we do get an image of a God that can be vengeful and merciless in punishing those who stray.

BUT, we also, in Christian tradition, get an image of a God who can show great love and mercy . . . and Joyce's faith in Buffy, and Tara's faith in Willow, are not being presented as all bad. The former is part of what sets Faith on the road to redemption. And of course, for Spike, his faith in Buffy, despite her abuse, will also lead him toward redemption.

So it is a very complex picture, and I had a hard time writing this analysis and condensing my thoughts.

About RILEY: I think sex is one area where Faith has always felt in control (remember the driving image she used with Xander: "Let me steer you around the curves" or something like that). And facing the experience she has with Riley - of sex as an expression of love and warmth - just brings her face to face with the emptiness of her life and philosophies. It shows her so very clearly how wrong she is and how much SHE (not Buffy) is missing. She has always claimed BUFFY was the one missing out on all the fun (Buffy is a suck-up tight ass with no sense of fun) . . . and with the others having "softened her up"as you say, the sexual encounter with Riley shows Faith how wrong she is. And unlike with Joyce, where she could smirk about how Joyce was putting up with Buffy not visiting, Faith has nothing to smirk about after her Riley encounter - she has only the disturbing realization that life doesn't have to be the way she thinks it does.

SPIKE - I thought the near-naked thing with Spike was part of the "dirty girls, people as sex objects" thing going on in that episode . . . and also, Spike was more modest in the beginning of Season 7, but that was before he got his duster back and all that stuff. So he is more his old self by this time. And maybe because he and Faith are so similar, he just feels very comfortable with her. And he is definitely flirting with her, so maybe he doesn't so much mind flaunting it a bit in this scene . . . I am talking off the top of my head here, as I haven't analyzed this ep and haven't seen that scene since the week it first aired.

[ldelrossi]

More great comments Spring, on the God issue. Joss is an atheist and I've read that he doesn't really believe in the concept of life after death. He may feel that those who believe in God are like Joyce and Tara in that they believe, love, believe, love, believe on and on, with no certainty of ever receiving a response to their love and devotion.

Personally and pettily, I have railed against a God who seems to be paying no attention to what horrors are going on in the world and what difficulties are going on in mine. I especially like the title of a kid's book ARE YOU THERE GOD, ITS ME MARGARET. I know I have felt that way.

I wonder if Joss will change in his lack of belief in unconditional love now that he has a son?

I mean absolutely no offense to anyone with my comments.

[SpringSummers]

Lori said:

More great comments Spring, on the God issue. Joss is an atheist and I've read that he doesn't really believe in the concept of life after death. He may feel that those who believe in God are like Joyce and Tara in that they believe, love, believe, love, believe on and on, with no certainty of ever receiving a response to their love and devotion.

Personally and pettily, I have railed against a God who seems to be paying no attention to what horrors are going on in the world and what difficulties are going on in mine. I especially like the title of a kid's book ARE YOU THERE GOD, ITS ME MARGARET. I know I have felt that way.

I wonder if Joss will change in his lack of belief in unconditional love now that he has a son?

I mean absolutely no offense to anyone with my comments.

What interests me about Joss's comments about being an Atheist is the . . . let me think how to put this . . . there's a touch of the "protesting too much" to his frequent denial of a belief in God. Especially given the nature of his writing, which seems to be one long prayer, and endless homage to that in which he claims he does not believe.

It's as if his intellect won't allow him to consciously believe in something so illogical as a loving God, when no scientific proof is available. So his emotional/spiritual side finds its outlet completely (and continuously) in his writing, where those parts of himself can be acceptable to his intellect.

It must be kind of hard to be Joss, and I too wonder if his fatherhood experience won't allow him to better integrate and accept himself completely. I know parenthood had that effect on me (as it does on most people, eventually).

[ldelrossi]

I agree. There is so much falling from grace, seeking redemption, atonement, helping others, ensouling, Buffy believing she was in heaven, etc. I mean the basic premise for Buffy is to save the world from evil demons. Angel, no matter what his reason, wants to help people. He even refuses to keep the Ring of Amara so that he can help the ones lost in the dark. Angel's unconditional love when he releases Connor to have a better life is certainly seems to follow teachings of most religions.

Maybe he is using his writing to search for what he truly believes. But I think his writing/concepts about these things touch a lot of people. I know they have touched me.

[ldelrossi]

So sorry - I forgot to mention Spike's seeking his soul. Yes he did it for Buffy, but had to be willing to suffer and sacrifice himself to get it. And of course in the final episode when he really sacrifices his life to save Buffy and the others.

Really powerful.

[Karen]

Great analysis, Spring!

I like all the “drive” references and the references to control – giving it up and taking it. Poor Faith, always looking for that family love and someplace to call home, but never knowing what to do to get that love. And the mayor, acting like the father Faith craved, uses her hunger for belonging, to control her and Sunnydale from the grave by giving her a “gift” – he really craved that family, too, although in a warped way. From "This Year's Girl"

But on the other hand, heck, maybe we won. And right now, I'm on some jumbo monitor in the Richard Wilkins museum surrounded by a bunch of kids sitting Indian style and looking up at my face filled with fear and wonder. (Laughs) "Hi kids!"

After the switch, Faith begins to feel the consequences of being good. The more good she does, the more good she becomes – as evidenced in her returning to the church to save those worshippers. I think we saw this theme with Spike. The more good he did after being chipped, the more good he became. At one point, he did good not so much for Buffy, but for the sake of doing good - to belong to something (a family, Dawn) – to not be alone. (I’m thinking about how he acted the summer Buffy was dead).

So much stuff packed in that episode, along with one of my favorite Spike scenes in the Bronze - *such* good foreshadowing. JM is such a good actor with an awesomely expressive face, as you said. SMG was excellent in this episode as well. She had Faith down pat!

Thanks so much for sharing!

[Kerrie]

Lori said:

More great comments Spring, on the God issue. Joss is an atheist and I've read that he doesn't really believe in the concept of life after death. He may feel that those who believe in God are like Joyce and Tara in that they believe, love, believe, love, believe on and on, with no certainty of ever receiving a response to their love and devotion.

Personally and pettily, I have railed against a God who seems to be paying no attention to what horrors are going on in the world and what difficulties are going on in mine. I especially like the title of a kid's book ARE YOU THERE GOD, ITS ME MARGARET. I know I have felt that way.

I wonder if Joss will change in his lack of belief in unconditional love now that he has a son?

I mean absolutely no offense to anyone with my comments.

Is JW an athiest (non-believer) or an agnostic (waiting for proof)? I can believe that he would declare himself an athiest (to tease people), but it seems to me that he would more likely to be an agnostic. I have no grounds to suppost this, just a hunch.

[Kerrie]

SpringSummers said:

Kerrie - thanks for the comments. On your question: "Were you really trying to say that people's relationship with God is a bit like Tara's relationship with Willow in the sense that the power is all on one side and believers need to be content with aiting for better days if they don't like what they are getting now?"

My answer is no, I'M not trying to say that, but I think Joss is making that comparison. And personally, I do agree the comparison is legitimate . . . but limited. In other words, in the Christian tradition, the relationship between The Lord and "His people" does have an element of fear (like the vampires with Adam) and of blind faith subjugation. People do tell God "I'm yours," much as Tara tells Willow the same thing, or the vampire gang leader tells Adam "Tell me what to do."

And I think the image of the church and talk of "His people" is deliberately meant to juxtapose the images. Certainly, in the Christian tradition, we do get an image of a God that can be vengeful and merciless in punishing those who stray.

BUT, we also, in Christian tradition, get an image of a God who can show great love and mercy . . . and Joyce's faith in Buffy, and Tara's faith in Willow, are not being presented as all bad. The former is part of what sets Faith on the road to redemption. And of course, for Spike, his faith in Buffy, despite her abuse, will also lead him toward redemption.

So it is a very complex picture, and I had a hard time writing this analysis and condensing my thoughts.

About RILEY: I think sex is one area where Faith has always felt in control (remember the driving image she used with Xander: "Let me steer you around the curves" or something like that). And facing the experience she has with Riley - of sex as an expression of love and warmth - just brings her face to face with the emptiness of her life and philosophies. It shows her so very clearly how wrong she is and how much SHE (not Buffy) is missing. She has always claimed BUFFY was the one missing out on all the fun (Buffy is a suck-up tight ass with no sense of fun) . . . and with the others having "softened her up"as you say, the sexual encounter with Riley shows Faith how wrong she is. And unlike with Joyce, where she could smirk about how Joyce was putting up with Buffy not visiting, Faith has nothing to smirk about after her Riley encounter - she has only the disturbing realization that life doesn't have to be the way she thinks it does.

SPIKE - I thought the near-naked thing with Spike was part of the "dirty girls, people as sex objects" thing going on in that episode . . . and also, Spike was more modest in the beginning of Season 7, but that was before he got his duster back and all that stuff. So he is more his old self by this time. And maybe because he and Faith are so similar, he just feels very comfortable with her. And he is definitely flirting with her, so maybe he doesn't so much mind flaunting it a bit in this scene . . . I am talking off the top of my head here, as I haven't analyzed this ep and haven't seen that scene since the week it first aired.

Thank you for your explanation. It does make it a lot clearer for me.

[Spaced Out Looney]

We leave both Buffy and Faith - separate, but always together, always connected – with some important decisions to make as they begin new phases of their lives, older and wiser from their time in each other’s skin.

You know, whenever I watch this episode, I am reminded of an off-hand remark Buffy makes about Faith in season 3 that under different circumstances, she could be like Faith. Unfortunately, since things went badly, Buffy made every effort to distance herself from all things Faith, forget about her, and not learn from Faith's experiences. Nevertheless, they are still connected.


It strikes me that while Faith benefited from many experiences by being in Buffy's body, Buffy suffered by not being "present" for these experiences.

*She missed Joyce's concern about her not visiting and most importantly the observation that Faith was acting the way she was because she was "horribly unhappy." (Buffy at this point seemed, like Faith, to think Faith just wanted to be that way. Perhaps with her mom's insight she may have behaved differently when she later went to LA to "help" Angel with Faith.)
*After the Riley/Faith-in-Buffy sex, Riley says "I love you" for the first time, I think; this very special moment Buffy didn't get to experience. (How different would her reaction be from Faith's, I wonder?)


The Watcher's Council operatives insult Buffy-in-Faith, saying that, "The Watcher's Council used to mean something. You perverted it." It seems to me, that the Council felt the same way about both Slayers.


The Bronze scene, Yum! By the end, Spike's face is somewhere between Damn! and WTF? Just a perfect job by JM.

This is the first time we see this repeated image of Spike being backed up against a pole/wall by Buffy, who proceeds to do absolutely anything to him.

Again, this is not typical Buffy behavior at this point, but Buffy later on definitely makes with similar head games. I'm not surprised that even when Spike got to know Buffy better that he didn't find it too out of character and probably only questioned it in season 7 when they talked a lot.

One thing that I wonder about this scene: Does the meeting of these two characters that represent Buffy's dark side have any meaning? I think it might, I'm just not sure what.


Final observation: Faith-in-Buffy mentions to Riley how Faith "gives in to her animal instincts" always reminds me of how Spike mentions in "Dead Things" Buffy's animal instincts. So the two Slayers are not _that_ different, it's just that Buffy hasn't really accessed that part of herself yet.


The Faith-arc are real crossroads for Buffy and Faith; with Angel's help Faith begins to climb out out of her darkness and Buffy slowly begins her dark period and will be helped through it by Spike.