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Post by William the Bloody on Dec 4, 2003 17:15:54 GMT -5
Let the discussion begin!
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Post by Kerrie on Dec 4, 2003 20:38:33 GMT -5
Another great review, Spring, but you forgot to mention how scary this episode is for Spike-lovers.
This is the episode that leaves me the most anxious, because it shows Spike at his most manipulative and most nearly competent. Thus for future episodes questions arise about whether Spike manipulated this? For example in Smashed, did Spike pick a fight with Buffy hoping it would break down her emotional barriers and thus allow him access to her heart/body? In the version that I saw with Spike's preparations, this is a distinct possibility. Second, in Dead Things, Buffy says that Spike is to incompetent to be the Doctor. In The Yoko Factor it is all too apparent that Spike has the skills to be a master manipulator, but not the necessary attention to detail to carry it off.
In short for me this episode makes me anxious about Spike's capacity for good/evil. On the one hand his insight and opportunistic nature makes him a good "people person", however his poor planning doesn't allow to fully realise his potential. (Although even his plan would not have worked because it underestimates human nature and the bonds of friendship.) I suspect that these issues will be dealt with on AtS when Spike, the people person, is teamed with Angel, the perfect planner.
Addendum: I forgot to say how right I thought you were about Adam playing Spike. I never thought that Adam was necessarily going to give Spike his coveted chipectamy. Of course this raises all kinds of questions about why Adam would not want to return Spike to his full vampire state. Do you think that Adam knew that Spike had an unconscious crush on Buffy and therefore knew he was a risk? His words to Spike about his desires were open to interpretation.
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Post by Nickim on Dec 4, 2003 22:03:03 GMT -5
I think it much more likely that Adam would have modified Spike's chip so that Adam could control him. Adam could have used Spike as a soldier in his own private army. After all, Adam's "soldiers" were dead--Maggie, Forrest, and the other doctor(can't remember his name), so a vampire would fit right in.
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Post by SpringSummers on Dec 4, 2003 22:44:07 GMT -5
Another great review, Spring, but you forgot to mention how scary this episode is for Spike-lovers. This is the episode that leaves me the most anxious, because it shows Spike at his most manipulative and most nearly competent. Thus for future episodes questions arise about whether Spike manipulated this? For example in Smashed, did Spike pick a fight with Buffy hoping it would break down her emotional barriers and thus allow him access to her heart/body? Definitely, Spike was looking for a confrontation of some kind with Buffy - he didn't call her at The Magic Shop using that sexy voice because he was hoping to share a a cup of tea with her. I don't think he was 100% sure what was going to happen, and he certainly didn't force the sex in any way. But yes - it was what he was hoping for - really, he hadn't been making any bones about it. I don't think it can be called "manipulated," as the Yoko Factor stuff was, since Spike was upfront with Buffy all the way. He tells her at the beginning of the episode that he wants sex with her, he is just "after her" the whole episode. So . . . I think he got just what he wanted, but . . . really, so did Buffy. Yes, we do get the message that Spike just doesn't have the patience and attention span to successfuly pull off being "the Doctor," but we never get the message that he isn't "evil enough." He is. Spike is no longer EEEVVUUUUL on AtS, so that should make a big difference in his approach - i.e., what he uses his "people-person" talents for. Adam knew that he could use Spike's interest in, insecurities about, and relationship with, The Slayer, to further his plan. Personally - no hard proof, just a feeling I get from the set-up- I think he was always just going to kill Spike. There was no place for a vampire in his vision of powerful demon hybrids, who no longer have the flaws of humans. He wanted to make more in his own image. Spike isn't at all the sort Adam would want around, I don't think. |
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Post by SpringSummers on Dec 4, 2003 22:46:18 GMT -5
I think it much more likely that Adam would have modified Spike's chip so that Adam could control him. Adam could have used Spike as a soldier in his own private army. After all, Adam's "soldiers" were dead--Maggie, Forrest, and the other doctor(can't remember his name), so a vampire would fit right in. A vampire would fit in on the "dead" thing - but Adam would have had an army of demon hybrids like himself - why go to the trouble of trying to make a problem-child like Spike into a warrior? But really, your guess is as good as mine. We're never given anything very clear on this, though we definitely get the message that Adam is "playing" Spike - using Spike's insecurities about Buffy, and Spike's longing to get rid of his chip, to manipulate him. |
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Post by Nickim on Dec 5, 2003 9:24:45 GMT -5
A vampire would fit in on the "dead" thing - but Adam would have had an army of demon hybrids like himself - why go to the trouble of trying to make a problem-child like Spike into a warrior? But really, your guess is as good as mine. We're never given anything very clear on this, though we definitely get the message that Adam is "playing" Spike - using Spike's insecurities about Buffy, and Spike's longing to get rid of his chip, to manipulate him. But, aren't vampires demon-human hybrids? Adam wanted to kill humans and Spike still did too, at that point. No way to know for sure, of course. Fun to speculate. |
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Post by makd on Dec 5, 2003 16:31:58 GMT -5
Spring
Excellent review of the Yoko Factor. I read your review, then re-watched the episode. Your insights really helped me to enjoy the program.
Thanks so much!
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Post by SpringSummers on Dec 5, 2003 17:09:13 GMT -5
Spring Excellent review of the Yoko Factor. I read your review, then re-watched the episode. Your insights really helped me to enjoy the program. Thanks so much! Thanks, makd, for taking the time to provide some feedback. As Spike will say in the next episode (Primeval) "it warms the cockles of my non-beating heart" to know that I've helped anyone enjoy the show. Except of course, my heart is beating (I swear!). I hope to get Primeval done this weekend. Then I have to face my greatest fear: Analyzing Restless! I have to stop putting this stuff off, as I am actually very anxious to get started on Season 5. So much good stuff in it! That reminds me. I have yet to order the DVD for Season 5, and it is suppose to be out next week. Amazon, here I come. |
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Post by SpringSummers on Dec 5, 2003 17:16:18 GMT -5
But, aren't vampires demon-human hybrids? Adam wanted to kill humans and Spike still did too, at that point. No way to know for sure, of course. Fun to speculate. Yes - it can only be speculation. Spike did not seem like Adam's "type" to me, if you know what I mean. Adam didn't go for emotions and rash actions and all that stuff. Spike was also constantly a smart-ass to him - I loved the "you're exactly like Tony Robbins!" and calling him "Mr Bits," etc. James' lively delivery and George H's (the Adam actor) stern and straight reactions just cracked me up. Even though Adam successfully manipulated him to a degree, Spike showed many signs of not being the slavishly obedient type. The next episode shows some more Spike/Adam interaction . . . I haven't had much time to really analyze, but maybe there are more clues there. |
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Post by S'ewing S'cubie on Dec 6, 2003 13:44:46 GMT -5
A vampire would fit in on the "dead" thing - but Adam would have had an army of demon hybrids like himself - why go to the trouble of trying to make a problem-child like Spike into a warrior? But really, your guess is as good as mine. We're never given anything very clear on this, though we definitely get the message that Adam is "playing" Spike - using Spike's insecurities about Buffy, and Spike's longing to get rid of his chip, to manipulate him. Having seen in the forms of Forrest and Maggie the kind of "soldier" Adam planned to create, my guess is that he would have wanted Spike very much. Would he have lived up to his part of the bargain. Well, again, we have seen exactly how Adam honors his commitments. The chip might indeed have been removed--along with the portions of Spike's brain that house individuality, personality and free will. In their stead would have been a vampire body with all Spike's strength, stamina, agility and reflexes robotically enhanced with all the weaponry, paraphernalia and programming necessary to bring Spike firmly into Adam's full control. Any part of the essential Spike that survived Adam's surgery would have been helplessly trapped in that body and forced to watch it to obey Adam's every command. In other words, Spike was allying himself with a creature that would have doomed him to a hell far worse than chipping, dusting or being a sensory-deprived ghost tied to Angel could ever have been. |
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Post by SpringSummers on Dec 6, 2003 16:42:53 GMT -5
Having seen in the forms of Forrest and Maggie the kind of "soldier" Adam planned to create, my guess is that he would have wanted Spike very much. Would he have lived up to his part of the bargain. Well, again, we have seen exactly how Adam honors his commitments. The chip might indeed have been removed--along with the portions of Spike's brain that house individuality, personality and free will. In their stead would have been a vampire body with all Spike's strength, stamina, agility and reflexes robotically enhanced with all the weaponry, paraphernalia and programming necessary to bring Spike firmly into Adam's full control. Any part of the essential Spike that survived Adam's surgery would have been helplessly trapped in that body and forced to watch it to obey Adam's every command. In other words, Spike was allying himself with a creature that would have doomed him to a hell far worse than chipping, dusting or being a sensory-deprived ghost tied to Angel could ever have been. Thanks for the feeback, Diane. Yes, if Spike was going to survive in any form (post a successful takeover by Adam), I think the form you describe would have been the only one acceptable to Adam. It all adds up to the fact that Adam - I don't think - ever had any intention of giving Spike what he wanted (his old self back), and was playing Spike. And Spike, in his desperation, was letting himself be played. I think that idea is deliberately suggested in this episode - that Spike, with his own insecurities and needs, in every bit as vulnerable as his "victims" and is being "victimized" in exactly the same way. Adam definitely doesn't use the "brother" terminology with Spike that he will use with Riley in Primeval, and I'm not at all sure he would have bothered to do anything but dust the smart-ass, pain-in-the-ass Spike - he certainly doesn't seem to give a fig what happens to Spike once we get to Primeval. But we agree on what is, to me, the important point: Whatever Adam might have done, it was never going to include restoring Spike to his old self. |
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Post by thelittlestvampire on Dec 6, 2003 16:57:52 GMT -5
Having seen in the forms of Forrest and Maggie the kind of "soldier" Adam planned to create, my guess is that he would have wanted Spike very much. Would he have lived up to his part of the bargain. Well, again, we have seen exactly how Adam honors his commitments. The chip might indeed have been removed--along with the portions of Spike's brain that house individuality, personality and free will. In their stead would have been a vampire body with all Spike's strength, stamina, agility and reflexes robotically enhanced with all the weaponry, paraphernalia and programming necessary to bring Spike firmly into Adam's full control. Any part of the essential Spike that survived Adam's surgery would have been helplessly trapped in that body and forced to watch it to obey Adam's every command. In other words, Spike was allying himself with a creature that would have doomed him to a hell far worse than chipping, dusting or being a sensory-deprived ghost tied to Angel could ever have been. I should go back and re-watch this- although I hate seeing this ep because it seems like Spike at his worst. I thought that Spike was trying to use Adam to take out the slayer. I thought Spike figured he would kill Adam onve the slayer was dead and he had his chip out. Being "his old self" would mean being free of Buffy as well as the chip- the two things stopping him from being e-vil. Spike has never shown any desire for a world free of humans, after all. Also- maybe Spike figures he can kill Adam even with the chip (part demon) - so even if Adam doesn't make good, he'll still have the slayer and her friends dead. This is a cockeye theory- I know- but I do think Spike thinks he can take Adam. Spike is more cunning and knows it. What bugged me about this ep- why would spike ally himself with such an icky creature? He wants buffy dead (or so he says at this point in his life) but I feel like he should have the decency to kill her himself. TLV |
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Post by S'ewing S'cubie on Dec 6, 2003 18:23:46 GMT -5
Thanks for the feeback, Diane. Yes, if Spike was going to survive in any form (post a successful takeover by Adam), I think the form you describe would have been the only one acceptable to Adam. It all adds up to the fact that Adam - I don't think - ever had any intention of giving Spike what he wanted (his old self back), and was playing Spike. And Spike, in his desperation, was letting himself be played. I think that idea is deliberately suggested in this episode - that Spike, with his own insecurities and needs, in every bit as vulnerable as his "victims" and is being "victimized" in exactly the same way. Adam definitely doesn't use the "brother" terminology with Spike that he will use with Riley in Primeval, and I'm not at all sure he would have bothered to do anything but dust the smart-ass, pain-in-the-ass Spike - he certainly doesn't seem to give a fig what happens to Spike once we get to Primeval. But we agree on what is, to me, the important point: Whatever Adam might have done, it was never going to include restoring Spike to his old self. I truly enjoyed your analysis, as always. You have a gift for seeing the subtext present in all the symbolism--and I'm not sure ME is aware of all they symbols they use. The use of archetypes is all over the Buffyverse. No, Adam doesn't use "brother" when he addresses Spike. That's because Spike is NOT his brother, not in the way that Riley is. Both Riley and Adam are ultimately creations of Maggie Walsh, whom Adam addresses as "Mother" even as he kills her. Riley was intended to be the next one Maggie would Frankensteinize if (when) he was killed by "HST" action. Riley, who is almost already the "Universal Soldier," thanks to Maggie's tinkering with his endocrine system, is already accustomed to taking orders. The last time Spike followed an order he was still called William. This would be unacceptable to Adam. Adam recruits vampires in between "The I in Team" and "Who Are You." They quickly fall in line and are ready to follow/obey him. This is acceptable to Adam, who goes so far as to convince demons and vampires to work together. Even so, one vampire questions Adam and is ruthlessly decapitated. No, Spike's brand of irreverence was certainly unacceptable. If he was not "recreated" he would certainly have been dusted. The vampires who so readily follow Adam are obviously minion-level. Senior, established vampires like Spike or Angel would be slower to respond. I wonder what The Master or Kakistos would have made of Adam--or he of them. |
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Post by SpringSummers on Dec 7, 2003 16:19:46 GMT -5
I should go back and re-watch this- although I hate seeing this ep because it seems like Spike at his worst. I thought that Spike was trying to use Adam to take out the slayer. I thought Spike figured he would kill Adam onve the slayer was dead and he had his chip out. Being "his old self" would mean being free of Buffy as well as the chip- the two things stopping him from being e-vil. Spike has never shown any desire for a world free of humans, after all. Also- maybe Spike figures he can kill Adam even with the chip (part demon) - so even if Adam doesn't make good, he'll still have the slayer and her friends dead. This is a cockeye theory- I know- but I do think Spike thinks he can take Adam. Spike is more cunning and knows it. What bugged me about this ep- why would spike ally himself with such an icky creature? He wants buffy dead (or so he says at this point in his life) but I feel like he should have the decency to kill her himself. TLV I thought Spike's motivation was all about getting the chip out, getting the chip out, getting the chip out. Buffy and her friends getting killed - that was fine with him, and maybe even something he would view as a "bonus." But I don't think he was thinking that far ahead, Spike isn't really big on the forward-thinking. He just wanted that chip out. |
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Post by Reetta on Dec 8, 2003 7:15:38 GMT -5
Another amazing, great, superb review, Spring. You have definitely made a difference in my viewing experience and helped me enjoy the show more. I'm looking forward to your Season 5 reviews.
What I got out of the episode (prior to reading your analysis, you are just so much better at elaborating on the thoughts) was exactly the idea that facing facts and communicating with others is good and avoiding facts and withholding information is bad. We definitely reflect our fears on others, which I guess is apparent especially in Xander's case. Lack of communication only makes the situation worse, increases our insecurities and, like you said, leaves us vulnerable to be played.
I don't think Adam was ever going to perform the chipectomy on Spike either. (Or maybe I thought about it just for a moment on the first watching). Anyway, I agree that Spike is not the kind of person he would want on his "team", Spike always being able to steer clear of his direct control.
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