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Post by thelittlestvampire on Dec 13, 2003 18:18:15 GMT -5
Yes, that was truly, truly awful. I gotta disagree that teh "Gone" thing is worse than ignoring Xander having done something that killed people. Also - it was done in a lame way, and I like Xander, but I didn't have that reaction to him in "Gone." He helps save the day in "Gone," after all. He's the one who realizes Buffy is gonna die! I thought Xander's "blind" reactions to finding Spike & Buffy in the kitchen, and then in bed, were meant to be a very literal, in your face, representation of what we see from all the characters in Season 6 - they are so self-involved, and into fooling themselves, that they don't see what is right in front of their noses. I mean, really, Willow doesn't realize what's up with those two when Spike comes smoking into the kitchen? And in a later episode, when they have sex in the front yard, and Buffy comes in with grass stains and makes major slip-ups in her conversation? And Buffy, in Smashed doesn't realize how far gone Willow is with the magic (in this, Xander and Anya do realize)? No one notices that Dawn is stealing and feeling horrible and neglected? Etc. It's a theme in Season 6, and actually, a very realistic one for people who have been through a lot, and are at that age, etc. So I just saw the Xander-blindness in "Gone" as part of a Season long theme that included everybody (possible exception of Tara). Xander does seem idiotic, but I say again that he was "just one of the crowd" in the self-deluded blindness that afflicted everyone in Season 6 (think of Willow's reaction to Giles telling her she is a "rank amateur" or Giles talking himself into leaving, or Buffy telling herself and Spike that Spike does NOT make her hot . . . puh-leeze!!!) The idea is not that these folks are being idiotic - really, don't you know people -smart people, perceptive people - who indeed do have areas where they "don't notice the ear-nibbling?" Especially when they are that young? I mean, I was nearly that stupid and willfully blind about some things at that age. Think of what it would mean for Buffy to realize that Spike DOES make her hot, or for Xander to let himself see and understand the ear-nibbling. When something is that devastating to your long-held perception of yourself, your loved ones, and the world around you, it is not so unusual for it to take time to penetrate, despite the real world's continual attack on your senses. On the sense of smell - hee. You are pretty funny. But I would say that Xander's belief that Spike was . . . entertaining himself could account for some olefactory sensations, and Xander didn't get all THAT close to Spike & Buffy . . . OK. I don't think I'm going to think about that anymore . . . It's been interesting following this... rob- you've given me a lot to think about with Xander and made me much more sympathetic to his character. And Spring, I totally agree with your hysterical blindness theory. Thanks to you both!
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Post by Reetta on Dec 14, 2003 8:57:22 GMT -5
It's been interesting following this... rob- you've given me a lot to think about with Xander and made me much more sympathetic to his character. And Spring, I totally agree with your hysterical blindness theory. Thanks to you both! I'd have to second that. I seem to have taken a sudden interest in Xander myself - a character I never much cared about. Broadening my perspectives, I guess. Rob, I actually agree with a lot of what you say and do not really have a strictly contradictory opinion on any of your observations (except for what Spring also mentioned about the Gone thing). Nevertheless, I'd like to add a few thoughts (although it is very much possible that they have been mentioned many times before). Especially in HS Xander was a person who was interested in a lot of things but never cared enough about any one of them to pursue it seriously. Xander has always been some sort of *fumbling for the right word* - well, he's obviously been fumbling his way through a lot and half-heartedly doing this and that. Always up to S7, that is. In S7 he seems to have reached a secure sense of responsibility. That is not exactly what I wanted to say but I can't say it any better right now. What I mean is that a lot of growing up involves coming to terms with a wider range of more complicated emotions. I think Xander has been going through that process throughout the whole series. Of course, that is not just Xander - the same could be said of all of the characters - but one example is that Xander's HS feelings of rejection have evolved into "coming to terms with his place in Buffy's heart". There are many factors that contributed to Xander's lack of self-worth throughout the seasons - among them that his family really was not there for support, nor as stabilizing force or as imparter of values. I guess he really had the longest way to go until he could accept himself and that is one of the possible reasons he seemed to be somewhat "blind" sometimes. If that makes any sense...
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Post by Rob on Dec 15, 2003 3:57:12 GMT -5
It's been interesting following this... rob- you've given me a lot to think about with Xander and made me much more sympathetic to his character. And Spring, I totally agree with your hysterical blindness theory. Thanks to you both! This is nice of you to say. Thank you.
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Post by Rob on Dec 15, 2003 4:10:00 GMT -5
I'd have to second that. I seem to have taken a sudden interest in Xander myself - a character I never much cared about. Broadening my perspectives, I guess. Rob, I actually agree with a lot of what you say and do not really have a strictly contradictory opinion on any of your observations (except for what Spring also mentioned about the Gone thing). Nevertheless, I'd like to add a few thoughts (although it is very much possible that they have been mentioned many times before). Especially in HS Xander was a person who was interested in a lot of things but never cared enough about any one of them to pursue it seriously. Xander has always been some sort of *fumbling for the right word* - well, he's obviously been fumbling his way through a lot and half-heartedly doing this and that. Always up to S7, that is. In S7 he seems to have reached a secure sense of responsibility. That is not exactly what I wanted to say but I can't say it any better right now. What I mean is that a lot of growing up involves coming to terms with a wider range of more complicated emotions. I think Xander has been going through that process throughout the whole series. Of course, that is not just Xander - the same could be said of all of the characters - but one example is that Xander's HS feelings of rejection have evolved into "coming to terms with his place in Buffy's heart". There are many factors that contributed to Xander's lack of self-worth throughout the seasons - among them that his family really was not there for support, nor as stabilizing force or as imparter of values. I guess he really had the longest way to go until he could accept himself and that is one of the possible reasons he seemed to be somewhat "blind" sometimes. If that makes any sense... No, that makes perfect sense, actually. I see where everyone is going with this...I really do. Your thoughts about Xander are very well stated, and it's immensely gratifying to read that you're thinking about him.
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Post by Rob on Dec 15, 2003 4:49:34 GMT -5
I gotta disagree that the "Gone" thing is worse than ignoring Xander having done something that killed people. Also - it was done in a lame way, and I like Xander, but I didn't have that reaction to him in "Gone." He helps save the day in "Gone," after all. He's the one who realizes Buffy is gonna die! I thought Xander's "blind" reactions to finding Spike & Buffy in the kitchen, and then in bed, were meant to be a very literal, in your face, representation of what we see from all the characters in Season 6 - they are so self-involved, and into fooling themselves, that they don't see what is right in front of their noses. Xander does seem idiotic, but I say again that he was "just one of the crowd" in the self-deluded blindness that afflicted everyone in Season 6 (think of Willow's reaction to Giles telling her she is a "rank amateur" or Giles talking himself into leaving, or Buffy telling herself and Spike that Spike does NOT make her hot . . . puh-leeze!!!) The idea is not that these folks are being idiotic - really, don't you know people -smart people, perceptive people - who indeed do have areas where they "don't notice the ear-nibbling?" Especially when they are that young? I mean, I was nearly that stupid and willfully blind about some things at that age. Think of what it would mean for Buffy to realize that Spike DOES make her hot, or for Xander to let himself see and understand the ear-nibbling. When something is that devastating to your long-held perception of yourself, your loved ones, and the world around you, it is not so unusual for it to take time to penetrate, despite the real world's continual attack on your senses. Ok, I agree completely with your thematic opinions; there is no question Season 6 is all about people so wrapped up in themselves they lie like rugs - especially to themselves. However, I know for a fact that message boards that cater to Xander-fans (yes, there ARE one or two out there) contain some pretty angry posts about that particular scene in "Gone." It's viewed, most often, as downright insulting to the character. Does this mean I'm hypersensitive when it comes to Xander? *shrugs* Probably. Either way, this is supposed to be a "Yoko Factor" forum, not a "Gone" one. Therefore I'll shut up about it.
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Post by Kerrie on Dec 15, 2003 15:22:40 GMT -5
Ok, I agree completely with your thematic opinions; there is no question Season 6 is all about people so wrapped up in themselves they lie like rugs - especially to themselves. However, I know for a fact that message boards that cater to Xander-fans (yes, there ARE one or two out there) contain some pretty angry posts about that particular scene in "Gone." It's viewed, most often, as downright insulting to the character. Does this mean I'm hypersensitive when it comes to Xander? *shrugs* Probably. Either way, this is supposed to be a "Yoko Factor" forum, not a "Gone" one. Therefore I'll shut up about it. I know I am late, but I will jump in anyway. With all due respect to those people who disagree I DO NOT think Xander was an idiot for not seeing that invisible Buffy was with Spike in the scene from "Gone". In Xander's situation I would never have realised what was going on. That does not make me an idiot - it simply makes me trusting and unsuspicious. Spike and Buffy were both maintaining a deception that they were single, and Buffy was also trying to pretend that she did not find Spike attractive. Therefore why would Xander instantly realise that Spike and Buffy were doing it? Unless he thought they were liars and regularly suspected they were doing the opposite to what they were saying. Buffy nibbling Spike's ear would be far more obvious to someone who knew she was present than someone who did not. Moreover, even if Xander did notice the ear moving it would have been more rational for Xander to assume that Spike was twitching his earlobes for some bizarre reason of his own than because Buffy was there. Remember, Xander at that point disliked and distrusted Spike whilst believing Buffy: Buffy implied that she was not attracted to Spike, therefore Xander would have no reason to think Buffy was there. I think it is more to Xander's credit that he is so blind in this situation. It reflects his loyalty and trust in Buffy and his unsuspicious nature. Someone less loyal and trusting and more suspicious may have put the puzzle together earlier - I doubt they have happier lives because of their greater insight. (In terms of the smell, I would imagine Spike's crypt probably always smelt and Xander would have turned off his sense of smell every time he entered. I could speculate more on this, but I think I will show some discretion and refrain.) Sorry for the rant. It was a bit of a shock to me that people would judge Xander harshly for being so unsuspicious. I gave the episode an extra tick because Xander's reaction was so spot on in terms of his character. Not because he was stupid, but because he trusts people, especially Buffy.
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Post by Nickim on Dec 15, 2003 17:11:42 GMT -5
I know I am late, but I will jump in anyway. With all due respect to those people who disagree I DO NOT think Xander was an idiot for not seeing that invisible Buffy was with Spike in the scene from "Gone". In Xander's situation I would never have realised what was going on. That does not make me an idiot - it simply makes me trusting and unsuspicious. Spike and Buffy were both maintaining a deception that they were single, and Buffy was also trying to pretend that she did not find Spike attractive. Therefore why would Xander instantly realise that Spike and Buffy were doing it? Unless he thought they were liars and regularly suspected they were doing the opposite to what they were saying. Buffy nibbling Spike's ear would be far more obvious to someone who knew she was present than someone who did not. Moreover, even if Xander did notice the ear moving it would have been more rational for Xander to assume that Spike was twitching his earlobes for some bizarre reason of his own than because Buffy was there. Remember, Xander at that point disliked and distrusted Spike whilst believing Buffy: Buffy implied that she was not attracted to Spike, therefore Xander would have no reason to think Buffy was there. I think it is more to Xander's credit that he is so blind in this situation. It reflects his loyalty and trust in Buffy and his unsuspicious nature. Someone less loyal and trusting and more suspicious may have put the puzzle together earlier - I doubt they have happier lives because of their greater insight. (In terms of the smell, I would imagine Spike's crypt probably always smelt and Xander would have turned off his sense of smell every time he entered. I could speculate more on this, but I think I will show some discretion and refrain.) Sorry for the rant. It was a bit of a shock to me that people would judge Xander harshly for being so unsuspicious. I gave the episode an extra tick because Xander's reaction was so spot on in terms of his character. Not because he was stupid, but because he trusts people, especially Buffy. ITA
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Post by LadyDi on Dec 15, 2003 18:21:35 GMT -5
I got the impression Xander assumed Buffy told Riley more than she did. Xander didn't mean to spill any beans, but he liked Riley and felt Riley deserved the full truth. As for the scene in Gone, everyone was very much wrapped up in themselves throughout s6. Spike was wrapped up in Buffy until she called things off btwn them, and then he wound up just as lost in his own pain and confusion.
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Post by SpringSummers on Dec 16, 2003 7:18:46 GMT -5
I know I am late, but I will jump in anyway. With all due respect to those people who disagree I DO NOT think Xander was an idiot for not seeing that invisible Buffy was with Spike in the scene from "Gone". In Xander's situation I would never have realised what was going on. That does not make me an idiot - it simply makes me trusting and unsuspicious. Spike and Buffy were both maintaining a deception that they were single, and Buffy was also trying to pretend that she did not find Spike attractive. Therefore why would Xander instantly realise that Spike and Buffy were doing it? Unless he thought they were liars and regularly suspected they were doing the opposite to what they were saying. Buffy nibbling Spike's ear would be far more obvious to someone who knew she was present than someone who did not. Moreover, even if Xander did notice the ear moving it would have been more rational for Xander to assume that Spike was twitching his earlobes for some bizarre reason of his own than because Buffy was there. Remember, Xander at that point disliked and distrusted Spike whilst believing Buffy: Buffy implied that she was not attracted to Spike, therefore Xander would have no reason to think Buffy was there. I think it is more to Xander's credit that he is so blind in this situation. It reflects his loyalty and trust in Buffy and his unsuspicious nature. Someone less loyal and trusting and more suspicious may have put the puzzle together earlier - I doubt they have happier lives because of their greater insight. (In terms of the smell, I would imagine Spike's crypt probably always smelt and Xander would have turned off his sense of smell every time he entered. I could speculate more on this, but I think I will show some discretion and refrain.) Sorry for the rant. It was a bit of a shock to me that people would judge Xander harshly for being so unsuspicious. I gave the episode an extra tick because Xander's reaction was so spot on in terms of his character. Not because he was stupid, but because he trusts people, especially Buffy. I do agree that Xander's "blindness" was due, in great part, to "blind trust" in Buffy. As he tells her in Season . . . 3 (?), she is his "hero." So naturally, he is not going to be suspicious first thing. And I definitely agree Xander was not being portrayed as "an idiot," no matter how much it might have seemed that way on the surface. And I was surprised to hear from Rob that there had been such vehement reaction from Xander-fans. I have to give this a big "BUT STILL" though - in the sense of: but still, Xander's a grown man, not a child. He sees Spike pawing Buffy in the Summers kitchen one morning. Buffy has not sent Spike flying across the room, which is surely what she would have done in the old days, if he had tried to put his hand on her butt, etc. Then, Xander is looking for invisible Buffy, that same day. He goes to Spike's crypt, and finds Spike - and it looks to him as if Spike is having sex with an invisible girl! What an odd coincidence! But OK - Xander figures Spike is lonely and has an imaginary girlfriend. Then, while they are talking, Spike is batting away at "nothing" behind him, and his earlobe is mysteriously moving. Spike seems distracted and is acting oddly - almost as if there is an invisible someone behind him, bothering him. So - I think we begin to cross over into the realm - not of idiocy - but of "willful blindness," of major denial - not being able to see what anyone else would see, because you can't face the pain it would cause you, what it would mean to your world and your perception of the world and your loved ones.
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Post by Kerrie on Dec 16, 2003 14:42:52 GMT -5
I do agree that Xander's "blindness" was due, in great part, to "blind trust" in Buffy. As he tells her in Season . . . 3 (?), she is his "hero." So naturally, he is not going to be suspicious first thing. And I definitely agree Xander was not being portrayed as "an idiot," no matter how much it might have seemed that way on the surface. And I was surprised to hear from Rob that there had been such vehement reaction from Xander-fans. I have to give this a big "BUT STILL" though - in the sense of: but still, Xander's a grown man, not a child. He sees Spike pawing Buffy in the Summers kitchen one morning. Buffy has not sent Spike flying across the room, which is surely what she would have done in the old days, if he had tried to put his hand on her butt, etc. Then, Xander is looking for invisible Buffy, that same day. He goes to Spike's crypt, and finds Spike - and it looks to him as if Spike is having sex with an invisible girl! What an odd coincidence! But OK - Xander figures Spike is lonely and has an imaginary girlfriend. Then, while they are talking, Spike is batting away at "nothing" behind him, and his earlobe is mysteriously moving. Spike seems distracted and is acting oddly - almost as if there is an invisible someone behind him, bothering him. So - I think we begin to cross over into the realm - not of idiocy - but of "willful blindness," of major denial - not being able to see what anyone else would see, because you can't face the pain it would cause you, what it would mean to your world and your perception of the world and your loved ones. I agree that wilful blindness was a factor, but I still think that the clues that were so obvious to the viewer who knew it was Buffy would not have been so obvious to someone who did not. To me other reasonable hypotheses that Xander could have entertained were that Spike was making his earlobe twitch (some people can do this) and shooing away flies or he was with another invisible girl (there was no reason to assume that Buffy was the only one hit by the ray and Spike may have had another girl-friend). Given that Xander believed that Buffy despised souless vampires either of these hypotheses are a lot more plausible. The problem was that at the end of the day Xander only saw Spike and did not know or care what he was doing. His suggestion for Spike to get a girlfriend was not intended to be an act of friendship. In terms of Xander walking in on Spike and Buffy in the kitchen, they moved apart so fast it would be difficult to remember anything clearly. When Buffy and Xander did finally talk about Buffy and Spike,. I cannot recollect that Xander admitted to having sub-consciously realised that Spike and Buffy were together which is what you would expect hi to say. Xander's hero-worship of Buffy was definitely blinding him (I think he says this in The Freshman) but I wonder about how much Buffy is obligated to tell her frieds about herself and what she is thinking, doing, and feeling. If the lesson Xander needed to learn was that Buffy was not always a hero and he cannot trust her to always tell the truth, he seemed to have learnt it by the end of season 6. In short, by her actions in season 6 Buffy shows that she is unworthy of the blind trust that Xander places in her. Is that what I was suposed to think?
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Post by thelittlestvampire on Dec 16, 2003 18:52:24 GMT -5
I got the impression Xander assumed Buffy told Riley more than she did. Xander didn't mean to spill any beans, but he liked Riley and felt Riley deserved the full truth. As for the scene in Gone, everyone was very much wrapped up in themselves throughout s6. Spike was wrapped up in Buffy until she called things off btwn them, and then he wound up just as lost in his own pain and confusion. Running the risk of further turning this "the Yoko Factor' discussion into a "Gone"/Season 6 discussion- I had to comment. You say that Spike is wrapped up in Buffy until she dumps him. I don't think that's entirely true. I think he is wrapped up in his own issues to the point of hysterical blindness during their relationship, as well. In the episode where Buffy goes crazy and thinks she's a mental patient (forgot the name) Spike is so after Buffy to "come out" to her friends about him that he forgets to make her drink her remedy. Spike doesn't really beleive/notice that Buffy is going insane. Why? Because he's so focused on his own goals- making Buffy his "real" girlfriend, that he is blind to her experience. I never understood why he behaved that way. Did he actually care what her friends think? Did he need more acceptance from her? Was is a plot trick to make him still "desperate"? I dunno, done thinking today TLV
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Post by SpringSummers on Dec 17, 2003 7:08:50 GMT -5
I agree that wilful blindness was a factor, but I still think that the clues that were so obvious to the viewer who knew it was Buffy would not have been so obvious to someone who did not. To me other reasonable hypotheses that Xander could have entertained were that Spike was making his earlobe twitch (some people can do this) and shooing away flies or he was with another invisible girl (there was no reason to assume that Buffy was the only one hit by the ray and Spike may have had another girl-friend). Given that Xander believed that Buffy despised souless vampires either of these hypotheses are a lot more plausible. The problem was that at the end of the day Xander only saw Spike and did not know or care what he was doing. His suggestion for Spike to get a girlfriend was not intended to be an act of friendship. In terms of Xander walking in on Spike and Buffy in the kitchen, they moved apart so fast it would be difficult to remember anything clearly. When Buffy and Xander did finally talk about Buffy and Spike,. I cannot recollect that Xander admitted to having sub-consciously realised that Spike and Buffy were together which is what you would expect hi to say. My memory is that Xander saw something -enough that he accused Spike of trying to come-on to Buffy. And they didn't move apart, but stayed close together, just staring at Xander. But really, my only point is that all together, this stuff might have added up for Xander, without the "wilfull blindness" factor. He is aware she will lie and is not perfect - he's the one who caught her kissing Angel after Angel's return from hell, and who accused her of not caring about Jenny Calendar ("you just want your boyfriend back!"). He just doesn't want to face this even more disturbing possibility, this further blow. Buffy is under no obligation to share; but lack of communication will build walls and distance. I think your insights are very valid, Kerrie. When it comes to "what we are suppose to think," I haven't viewed Season 6 with that kind of detailed, analytical eye, but I would say that everyone steps into the grown-up world, where they learn that no-one is "worthy" of adoration. Human beings are human beings are human beings - they are worthy of our love and respect and admiration - but none of them can stay up on a pedestal.
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Post by SpringSummers on Dec 17, 2003 7:19:14 GMT -5
Running the risk of further turning this "the Yoko Factor' discussion into a "Gone"/Season 6 discussion- I had to comment. I'm not worried about the "off-topic" if no one else is. I do agree that Spike's love of Buffy is of the self-involved variety: He'll do and accept anything to keep her by him. He cares more about keeping her with him, continuing to get his "Buffy-fix" than he cares about what is good for himself or her. I wouldn't characterize him as "hysterically blind" - he knows what's going on - so much as "morally blind." He doesn't mind that she's using him, he doesn't even mind getting beat up. Interesting perspective. I didn't see it as him "forgetting" to make her take her medicine, so much as him never intending to take such responsibility - I thought he deliberately left it up to her, and I thought it was a commentary on the way Spike sees Buffy: as an adult, and he wants an adult. I thought it might have been a very deliberate contrast to the way Angel fed her the medicine in . . . Earshot(?). That fits the "growing up" theme of the Season. I thought Spike was just "not buying" Buffy as . . . a needy child. He wasn't having any of it. And I thought he wanted to tell her friends for exactly the reason he said: so they could help her or kick her out, or whatever - but so it would be exposed and she would be better off. I can't remember his speech exactly in this, but I remember the clear impression he was right on target in his understanding of her.
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Post by Patti - S'cubie Cutie on Jan 21, 2004 17:11:52 GMT -5
I loved this episode and loved your analysis of it Spring. All of the things that had done in the relationships among our Scoobies were finally brought out and dealt with in this episode. Spike was the catalyst - but not as he hoped - as usual his evil plans backfire- and facing the truth brings Giles, Willow, Buffy, and Xander closer together again.
So many of the lines you quoted were my fav memories also - and oh yes - in this episode even I caught the Wizard of Oz reference! if ever a wiz there wasn't...that's sometimes me!
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