|
|
Post by William the Bloody on Dec 8, 2003 18:37:08 GMT -5
Let the discussion begin!
|
|
|
|
Post by Kerrie on Dec 9, 2003 16:18:32 GMT -5
That was a great review, Spring! I know I say that every time, but every time it is true!
I particularly liked your analysis of the role of connectedness in winning te battle. It reminds me of different types of leadership. I can't remember all the different types of leaders, but charismatic leaders, like Buffy, have the most power even if it is relatively short-lived and cannot be passed on. I don't think that it is accidentaly that Adam lacks charisma. He has a plan and strength of will, but cannot infect his team with any sense of enthusiams for his goals. Thus he does a deal with Spike, but Spike does not carry out his plan, because he didn't seem to grasp what it was and did not share Adam's enthusiasm for The Plan.
I don't know if I am making sense, but I liked your analysis and agreed with you wrote.
|
|
|
|
Post by Nickim on Dec 9, 2003 18:24:49 GMT -5
That was a great review, Spring! I know I say that every time, but every time it is true! I particularly liked your analysis of the role of connectedness in winning te battle. It reminds me of different types of leadership. I can't remember all the different types of leaders, but charismatic leaders, like Buffy, have the most power even if it is relatively short-lived and cannot be passed on. I don't think that it is accidentaly that Adam lacks charisma. He has a plan and strength of will, but cannot infect his team with any sense of enthusiams for his goals. Thus he does a deal with Spike, but Spike does not carry out his plan, because he didn't seem to grasp what it was and did not share Adam's enthusiasm for The Plan. I don't know if I am making sense, but I liked your analysis and agreed with you wrote. Great review, Spring, as always. It's frightening how charisma can cause otherwise sane, rational people to do horrible things, or at least not speak out against them--Hilter and the German populace, for example. |
|
|
|
Post by thelittlestvampire on Dec 9, 2003 18:33:24 GMT -5
Another great review, Spring!
I was glad you tied in the stuff Parker said about history earlier this season. Although his character was sort of unimportant, I felt like that speach he gave about history and choice was important somehow. In fact, I thought it was funny/sad, the interchange, "What are you doing?" "Making a choice." When Buffy says this she means, "a choice between you and Angel." And of course, that is not the choice she is making at all.
At the time, I thought it was sad how short-sighted her "choice" is. But by the end of the season I get the feeling that in choosing to have casual sex to get over Angel, she is choosing to move on in her life, even if she doesn't realize it at the time.
I'm not sure if that made any sense.
Anyway- the scene with Spike fighting is just great- it's the second time we see him in a heroic light this season!
I forgot just how great this episode was! When Buffy came under the influence of the spell I literally got chills. That may have been because I was home sick with the flu- but chills are chills!
Thanks for another great review- are you an achademic type, or just good at this?
TLV
|
|
|
|
Post by SpringSummers on Dec 9, 2003 18:57:18 GMT -5
That was a great review, Spring! I know I say that every time, but every time it is true! I particularly liked your analysis of the role of connectedness in winning te battle. It reminds me of different types of leadership. I can't remember all the different types of leaders, but charismatic leaders, like Buffy, have the most power even if it is relatively short-lived and cannot be passed on. I don't think that it is accidentaly that Adam lacks charisma. He has a plan and strength of will, but cannot infect his team with any sense of enthusiams for his goals. Thus he does a deal with Spike, but Spike does not carry out his plan, because he didn't seem to grasp what it was and did not share Adam's enthusiasm for The Plan. I don't know if I am making sense, but I liked your analysis and agreed with you wrote. I definitely agree that Adam's total lack of charisma is an important and deliberate part of the character. Adam sees no need for personal connection (at least, not the way most of us would define it). As always, thanks for the feedback, Kerrie. |
|
|
|
Post by SpringSummers on Dec 9, 2003 18:59:32 GMT -5
Great review, Spring, as always. It's frightening how charisma can cause otherwise sane, rational people to do horrible things, or at least not speak out against them--Hilter and the German populace, for example. This comment makes me think about our boy, Spike. Spike is probably the most charismatic character on the show, and his charisma goes a long way toward allowing him to successfully deal with his chipped state. Fortunately, he doesn't decide to take over any small countries while still completely evil. . . |
|
|
|
Post by SpringSummers on Dec 9, 2003 19:07:53 GMT -5
Another great review, Spring! I was glad you tied in the stuff Parker said about history earlier this season. Although his character was sort of unimportant, I felt like that speach he gave about history and choice was important somehow. In fact, I thought it was funny/sad, the interchange, "What are you doing?" "Making a choice." When Buffy says this she means, "a choice between you and Angel." And of course, that is not the choice she is making at all. At the time, I thought it was sad how short-sighted her "choice" is. But by the end of the season I get the feeling that in choosing to have casual sex to get over Angel, she is choosing to move on in her life, even if she doesn't realize it at the time. I'm not sure if that made any sense. Yes, it made sense. She was making a choice to try to get over Angel and move on with her life. Her focus on that is what, I think, blinded her to what Parker was really all about. He seemed nice, and she was so anxious to prove to herself that she could move forward. She DID choose casual sex, ultimately, but she was telling herself that she was choosing to have a significant relationship with someone-who-was-not-Angel. Well . . . I have a Bachelor's degree (engineering) and an MBA. I am not a professor or a teacher of any kind; right now I work in the business world. I was always kind of a "Willow" in school - good at science and math, but interested in artsy stuff too. Thanks for your feedback and nice words about my analysis. |
|
|
|
Post by thelittlestvampire on Dec 9, 2003 22:11:50 GMT -5
Well . . . I have a Bachelor's degree (engineering) and an MBA. I am not a professor or a teacher of any kind; right now I work in the business world. I was always kind of a "Willow" in school - good at science and math, but interested in artsy stuff too. Thanks for your feedback and nice words about my analysis. This is a nice place for science and business types to get out their brainy analyzing yayas! |
|
|
|
Post by thelittlestvampire on Dec 9, 2003 23:42:22 GMT -5
That was a great review, Spring! I know I say that every time, but every time it is true! I particularly liked your analysis of the role of connectedness in winning te battle. It reminds me of different types of leadership. I can't remember all the different types of leaders, but charismatic leaders, like Buffy, have the most power even if it is relatively short-lived and cannot be passed on. I don't think that it is accidentaly that Adam lacks charisma. He has a plan and strength of will, but cannot infect his team with any sense of enthusiams for his goals. Thus he does a deal with Spike, but Spike does not carry out his plan, because he didn't seem to grasp what it was and did not share Adam's enthusiasm for The Plan. I don't know if I am making sense, but I liked your analysis and agreed with you wrote. I was impressed with Adam's charisma when he gave Spike the "flame in a jar" speech. The thing with Adam is that his 'team' consists of himself and later Forrest. Not beig human or demon, he is totally on his own, until he builds others like himself. I'm suddenly feeling a little sorry for Adam.  Interesting, Buffy is always torn between being the "chosen" and part of the team. It is the fact that she is part of a team, and part of the world that gives her strength. Adam, nomatter how strong, is ultimately alone. |
|
|
|
Post by Reetta on Dec 14, 2003 9:54:23 GMT -5
That was a great review, Spring! I know I say that every time, but every time it is true! I particularly liked your analysis of the role of connectedness in winning te battle. It reminds me of different types of leadership. I can't remember all the different types of leaders, but charismatic leaders, like Buffy, have the most power even if it is relatively short-lived and cannot be passed on. I don't think that it is accidentaly that Adam lacks charisma. He has a plan and strength of will, but cannot infect his team with any sense of enthusiams for his goals. Thus he does a deal with Spike, but Spike does not carry out his plan, because he didn't seem to grasp what it was and did not share Adam's enthusiasm for The Plan. I don't know if I am making sense, but I liked your analysis and agreed with you wrote. Maybe that is exactly the difference between someone who always though ultimately falsely thinks of himself and presents himself as exemplar of correctness (I could be using the wrong English word here) and someone who actually is. |
|
|
|
Post by SpringSummers on Dec 16, 2003 7:24:04 GMT -5
Maybe that is exactly the difference between someone who always though ultimately falsely thinks of himself and presents himself as exemplar of correctness (I could be using the wrong English word here) and someone who actually is. Interesting point, Reeta. It's makes me think of the idea that those who are always talking about how good they are at something are probably not very good. While those who really are good aren't talking about it, they are doing it. I really saw Buffy's speech to The Colonel about how this was HER turf and the Initiative had no idea what they were dealing with as being very much like what she says to Adam: "You could never hope to grasp the source of our power." Adam, after all, is part of the Initiative, and represents their ideas taken to an extreme. |
|
|
|
Post by baunger1 on Jan 6, 2013 14:46:06 GMT -5
Hi Spring! And happy new year!
Recently rewatched this episode and read your analysis, and it started me thinking (as usual, so thank you). I don't normally give this episode a lot of thought, beyond the idea of the spell and the importance of friendship, but something struck me in your discussion of Adam's failure resulting from his lack of real connection to others, and others to him. I'd always looked at Anya's conversation with (and declaration of love to) Xander as being supportive. But it occurs to me -- Anya really doesn't have a clue why Xander would be upset that his friends look down on him, and basically tells him that he only needs her. I think there are two reasons for this, that undercut what I believe is a legitimate attempt to be supportive: 1) she is greedy, for all things, but especially Xander's love and attention, so she is content with his being isolated from his friends; and 2) having been a demon for so long, she lacks the capacity to understand the importance of those connections, in the same way that Adam does. I don't think she achieves that understanding until very shortly before her death, and at this point, it's certainly not a good harbinger for their future together.
Anya's reaction puts me very much in mind of season 6 Spike. He legitimately wants to help and support Buffy, but his need (or greed) for her love makes him willing to capitalize on her isolation from her friends, despite, or because of the fact that he's always known that her friends give her strength.
It's such a contrast to Tara, in the prior episode. When Willow expresses insecurity about Buffy, Tara's response is "Talk to her." Unlike Anya, Spike, and Adam, Tara understands the importance of friendship, and the need to communicate to preserve those bonds.
|
|
|
|
Post by SpringSummers on Jan 7, 2013 12:40:07 GMT -5
Hi Spring! And happy new year! Great to hear from you baunger, and Happy 2013 to you, too. Yes, nice thinky thoughts. I think you are on target with the analysis of why Anya reacts as she does . . . i.e., she doesn't understand why Xander values his connections in the first place, and also, she is very jealous of anything that takes Xander's time and attention away from her. Adam, of course doesn't share the "jealous" part, which is what makes Anya redeemable - I mean, Anya, underneath it all, is human and has some sense of the need for connection, even if she has focused in a needy-greedy way, entirely on Xander. So true. Spike even uses much the same type of words, basically saying "No one cares about you but me." It's a way of isolating to try to exert control. Yes, Tara is the perfect contrast. Great addition to the discussion - I hadn't given the Anya-Xander angle much thought, but it fits perfectly into the overall theme of Primeval. |
|
