Out Of My Mind Discussion

[William the Bloody]

Let the discusion begin.

[Cal]

Great analysis, Spring. You always manage to help me see things that I never would on my own.

Keep doing the analyses, Spring. We need them more than ever now. This one was a much needed pick-me-up. Thanks for that.

You could watch that scene until your eyes fall out? You're not on your own - mine very nearly have, on occasion ;D

Cal

[SpringSummers]

cal said:

Great analysis, Spring. You always manage to help me see things that I never would on my own.

Keep doing the analyses, Spring. We need them more than ever now. This one was a much needed pick-me-up. Thanks for that.

You could watch that scene until your eyes fall out? You're not on your own - mine very nearly have, on occasion ;D

Cal

Thanks, cal.

Yes, I could watch that dream sequence until my bloodshot eyes fall out, and my open mouth dries out, and my weakened knees turn permanently into jelly.

Spike looks so good, plus it's such a passionate scene - all the panting and the looks on their faces. Watching it on my computer with the DVD this last time, I even noticed that SMG's pupils were huge in that scene. She sure is a good actress, getting that detail right.

[Nan-S'cubie Mascot]

Wonderful, Spring. And now you're getting to the episodes, and the relationship, where Spike is not at the periphery, but is moving toward the center, challenging Buffy's right to occupy it alone. He's harder to ignore, harder to deter, with a lot more sincerity and sureness in his snark. The sniping is now foreplay, and both he and Buffy increasingly know it, consciously. The subtext is becoming text.

I look forward with near-rabid eagerness for your analyses of the episodes that follow!

[SpringSummers]

Nan said:

Wonderful, Spring. And now you're getting to the episodes, and the relationship, where Spike is not at the periphery, but is moving toward the center, challenging Buffy's right to occupy it alone. He's harder to ignore, harder to deter, with a lot more sincerity and sureness in his snark. The sniping is now foreplay, and both he and Buffy increasingly know it, consciously. The subtext is becoming text.

I look forward with near-rabid eagerness for your analyses of the episodes that follow!

Thanks Nan.

Yes - I like the way you put that - sniping that is now foreplay. And that sniping just gets more and more intense until it becomes a knock-down drag out fight, which does, indeed, turn out to be foreplay. Who knew? Well, anyone watching with even half-an-eye, I think, might have guessed where that Buffy/Spike chemistry was heading.

Next is No Place Like Home which is the one where Glory is introduced and Buffy learns Dawn is The Key. It's very Spike-light, but the one Spike-scene that's in it is that wonderful " And you have stupid hair!" scene.

Then Family, about Tara's family, then Fool for Love, which I am trying not to get too anxious about. Fool for Love is such a brilliant ep all around, and I want to do it justice.

[Kerrie]

When I watched the episode I noticed that Spike prayed after having his dream (I also noticed that it was the first and only time that Spike resists the idea that he loves Buffy. He seems to accept it as gospel fate from then on.) I thought that Spike's reaction was odd, given his evilness and made me think that his habit of praying ran deep and something he would fall back on in time of crisis. After reading I can see other things that I missed but really really wanted to know - like why he loved Buffy. Thankfully your analysis has clarified it all: There is an overlap between Buffy/God/Mother for Spike. There is nothing left to say - thank-you. This issue has been driving me nuts for ages.

(Sorry, this another one of my rambling, incoherant posts.)

[SpringSummers]

Kerrie said:

When I watched the episode I noticed that Spike prayed after having his dream (I also noticed that it was the first and only time that Spike resists the idea that he loves Buffy. He seems to accept it as gospel fate from then on.) I thought that Spike's reaction was odd, given his evilness and made me think that his habit of praying ran deep and something he would fall back on in time of crisis. After reading I can see other things that I missed but really really wanted to know - like why he loved Buffy. Thankfully your analysis has clarified it all: There is an overlap between Buffy/God/Mother for Spike. There is nothing left to say - thank-you. This issue has been driving me nuts for ages.

(Sorry, this another one of my rambling, incoherant posts.)

You're welcome. And thanks for your comments.

Your post is not rambling or incoherent - not at all.

When I made the "who is substituting for whom" list, I really didn't try to get into every last detail explicity, but there is a lot going on there. I appreciate that you caught on to the implications.

For Spike, Harmony is substituting for Buffy, but I think the implication is that Buffy is, to an extent, a substitute for his mother, and for all that William has lost (his relationship, his connection to God/Goodness/Pure Love - whatever you want to call it).

Now that he is chipped and no longer actively doing evil - he gets, as Willow puts it "extra twitchy." Why? The chip has allowed him time away from absolute immersion in Evil, and it is allowing that teeny-tiny, freaky, remaining goodness in him to twitch. He is finding himself subconsciously driven to work out the Mom issues, and to re-connect to Goodness. Buffy attracts him like a beacon, but he doesn't - he can't - understand that yet.

[Karen]

Wow, Spring - you really amaze me with your insights. I enjoyed your analysis - lots of good stuff you sussed out. www.soulfulspike.com/membersavatars/smileys/bid.gif [/img]

Spike having that dream about Buffy is one of my favorite surprises in the Jossverse (plus one that makes my heart go pitter-pat).

It struck me how Spike realized that Buffy doesn't love him (Buffy - I want you, Spike." - not I love you), even in his dream, but he has hope that it might be true someday.

It never comes true, not in the way he wants it to be. Buffy needs him to heal her and will use him, and eventually come to respect him and trust him, but love - she never does (maybe someday she would have - if Joss had allowed for it).

"Sort your dreams from reality. Then accept reality – not because you see yourself as powerless, but because you realize you must know the truth before you can effectively impact it."

Spike eventually realized that Buffy didn't love him - and he went on to the next thing - saving himself and the world in the process.

Thank you!

So, when you are done with all the Spikecentric episodes, will you start on all the other ones? www.soulfulspike.com/membersavatars/smileys/hearton.gif [/img]

[SpringSummers]

Karen said:

Wow, Spring - you really amaze me with your insights. I enjoyed your analysis - lots of good stuff you sussed out. www.soulfulspike.com/membersavatars/smileys/bid.gif

[/img]

Spike having that dream about Buffy is one of my favorite surprises in the Jossverse (plus one that makes my heart go pitter-pat).

It struck me how Spike realized that Buffy doesn't love him (Buffy - I want you, Spike." - not I love you), even in his dream, but he has hope that it might be true someday.

It never comes true, not in the way he wants it to be. Buffy needs him to heal her and will use him, and eventually come to respect him and trust him, but love - she never does (maybe someday she would have - if Joss had allowed for it).



Spike eventually realized that Buffy didn't love him - and he went on to the next thing - saving himself and the world in the process.

Thank you!

So, when you are done with all the Spikecentric episodes, will you start on all the other ones? www.soulfulspike.com/membersavatars/smileys/hearton.gif [/img][/quote]

You're welcome!

I'm glad you enjoyed the analysis.

I think Buffy loves Spike as much as her cookie-dough self can love anyone at the end of Season 7, but well . . . there's only so far "cookie-dough" can go with true love. Spike realizes this, but more importantly, Buffy herself has realized it (in the series finale).

She isn't done baking, she doesn't know exactly how she will feel or what she will want in a few years - but she's does know that she wants LIFE now. Hence the good-bye to the vampire loves.

Buffy has grown up enough to realize she has a lot of growing up to do. Very important.

As far as going on to the "other eps"

I have thought about it, but I figure if I get through Season 5, 6, & 7, I will just see how I feel about doing the other eps, or going forward to AtS.

[Nickim]

Spring,

As always, you totally amaze me. How many times have I watched the dream-sequence and neve caught the fact that Spike's almost in the sunlight, leaning toward goodness? How long do you spend on each episode? Do these things just pop out at you or do you have to watch over & over? Please keep doing things analyses. We need them.

[SpringSummers]

Nicki said:

Spring,

As always, you totally amaze me. How many times have I watched the dream-sequence and neve caught the fact that Spike's almost in the sunlight, leaning toward goodness? How long do you spend on each episode? Do these things just pop out at you or do you have to watch over & over? Please keep doing things analyses. We need them.

Thanks, Nicki. It helps to get encouragement to keep on working on the analyses. There is so much ahead of me on them!

It varies, but usually, to analyze the eps, I watch the episode three times. Once to start out, once after I've printed out and put initial notes on the script, then again with the script in front of me for more notes. I then read the script over very carefully, and I often watch the ep one more time if I think I need too.

And usually, on that careful readthrough, is when things really start to pop-out at me. All of a sudden, the whole thing sort of gels for me, and I see how just about every line and scene is related to the overall themes.

Sometimes, I go ahead with an analysis even when I'm not feeling I've really, 100%, "got it," but . . . it seems more important to keep the pace up than to feel I've understood it all perfectly.

It's often a bigger challenge figuring out what to include, and emphasize, and how to organize my thoughts, than to come up with them.

I'm fine with people disagreeing with my analyses, but I really want the reader to enjoy the essay, and not be bored, and understand what I am saying.

[Lola m]

Spring - very thought provoking analysis – with one of the more believable and intriguing ways to explain why Spike begins to fall in love with Buffy.

And the theme of “stop, look and listen” - another one of those "wow I didn't see that until she mentioned it" moments. (Play on words not really meant - it just happened.) Of course it’s much easier for me to spot these things in hindsight, but I definitely noticed several smaller points when I re-watched this ep – taking the time to “stop, look and listen”.

One in particular that struck me this time was the conversation between Willow and Tara when they searched the old high school. When Willow uses the spell to make light I deliberately stopped and really looked and listened to Tara’s reaction. I had seen before that she was surprised/amazed by Willow’s prowess and went into her usual self-deprecating mode. “I taught you teeny Tinkerbell light.” But I wonder now, did I also see a hint of a “that’s really a little more magic than was needed here” vibe? And Willow’s reason for doing it? “….. besides, isn’t this better than using a flashlight like some kind of doofus?”. Yeah, it’s funny ‘cuz we go right to a shot of Buffy with a flashlight, but how telling is it of later events with Willow? Because her problems are always all about wanting to the “solve it now/easy path” rather than work through things. And her issues always come back to those same “I’m not a nerd/geek/doofus like I was in high school, but inside I know I still am” feelings.

Those aren’t really good sentences up there, but hopefully you get my drift.

Lola

[SpringSummers]

Lola said:

Spring - very thought provoking analysis – with one of the more believable and intriguing ways to explain why Spike begins to fall in love with Buffy.

And the theme of “stop, look and listen” - another one of those "wow I didn't see that until she mentioned it" moments. (Play on words not really meant - it just happened.) Of course it’s much easier for me to spot these things in hindsight, but I definitely noticed several smaller points when I re-watched this ep – taking the time to “stop, look and listen”.

One in particular that struck me this time was the conversation between Willow and Tara when they searched the old high school. When Willow uses the spell to make light I deliberately stopped and really looked and listened to Tara’s reaction. I had seen before that she was surprised/amazed by Willow’s prowess and went into her usual self-deprecating mode. “I taught you teeny Tinkerbell light.” But I wonder now, did I also see a hint of a “that’s really a little more magic than was needed here” vibe? And Willow’s reason for doing it? “….. besides, isn’t this better than using a flashlight like some kind of doofus?”. Yeah, it’s funny ‘cuz we go right to a shot of Buffy with a flashlight, but how telling is it of later events with Willow? Because her problems are always all about wanting to the “solve it now/easy path” rather than work through things. And her issues always come back to those same “I’m not a nerd/geek/doofus like I was in high school, but inside I know I still am” feelings.

Those aren’t really good sentences up there, but hopefully you get my drift.

Lola

Thanks, Lola - glad you liked it.

Yes, I get your drift and I agree completely about the Willow/Tara interaction. It goes along with Willow disagreeing with Tara that Tara needs to watch and listen to be a real psychic, and Dawn wanting the prize without eating the cereal.

Underneath it all, Willow is very unsure of herself and her ability to do things, to handle things, "the slow, hard, real-life" way. She tries to deal with her Xander-attraction by using a spell. She tries to deal with Veruca by using a spell. She tries to deal with her pain from Oz's departure by using her Something Blue spell.

Tara, on the other hand, understands that to truly "get the prize" you have to "eat the cereal." You have to do the hard and sometimes painful work. And I do think we see that she is impressed, but also made a touch uncomfortable by Willow's "let there be light," solution. In another "God" reference, this is Willow, showing tendencies to "play God."

[Lola m]

SpringSummers said:

Thanks, Lola - glad you liked it.

Yes, I get your drift and I agree completely about the Willow/Tara interaction. It goes along with Willow disagreeing with Tara that Tara needs to watch and listen to be a real psychic, and Dawn wanting the prize without eating the cereal.

Underneath it all, Willow is very unsure of herself and her ability to do things, to handle things, "the slow, hard, real-life" way. She tries to deal with her Xander-attraction by using a spell. She tries to deal with Veruca by using a spell. She tries to deal with her pain from Oz's departure by using her Something Blue spell.

Tara, on the other hand, understands that to truly "get the prize" you have to "eat the cereal." You have to do the hard and sometimes painful work. And I do think we see that she is impressed, but also made a touch uncomfortable by Willow's "let there be light," solution. In another "God" reference, this is Willow, showing tendencies to "play God."

How true! The cereal prize and Willow playing God - and later this season we'll get a real God and Willow will try to go up against her. It's all here if we look for it.

Lola

[Kerrie]

I also meant to say that I particularly liked the comparison between the number of God-references on this episode compared with earlier episodes.