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Post by Spaced Out Looney on Jan 26, 2005 1:29:57 GMT -5
You know, I never noticed this the first time I watched this episode, but every time I've watched this episode after reading your review, I can't not notice it. heh. I especially notice the number of times a character starts to say one thing and then rephrases what they are going to say so that it includes the word "come." Yep, definitely deliberate.
Also, the shoe thing is really cool. I appreciate you pointing out the references to shoes in the songs because they are a little too faint to hear clearly. Since everybody has feet and wears shoes, you gotta be careful about reading too much into things, but its definitely a theme for JW. In addition to what's been already discussed on this thread, I recall the shot of Xander's walk of shame in BBB focusing on his shoes in the beginning and a shot in Passions beginning by focusing on Giles shoes.
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Post by SpringSummers on Jan 26, 2005 8:37:23 GMT -5
You know, I never noticed this the first time I watched this episode, but every time I've watched this episode after reading your review, I can't not notice it. heh. I especially notice the number of times a character starts to say one thing and then rephrases what they are going to say so that it includes the word "come." Yep, definitely deliberate. Also, the shoe thing is really cool. I appreciate you pointing out the references to shoes in the songs because they are a little too faint to hear clearly. Since everybody has feet and wears shoes, you gotta be careful about reading too much into things, but its definitely a theme for JW. In addition to what's been already discussed on this thread, I recall the shot of Xander's walk of shame in BBB focusing on his shoes in the beginning and a shot in Passions beginning by focusing on Giles shoes. Oh - gosh yes, the repeated use of the word "come" is definitely deliberate. I double check myself when it is a common word like "come," by doing word counts on some of the other eps. None of the other eps I checked came anywhere near 34 uses! More like 5. And we get clued off during the Spike-dream, of course. And the shoes -yes- another "common" object so again, I had to look closely, but I became convinced that shoes were being deliberately emphasized in the ep. I know what you mean about not being able to "not notice" stuff, once you start to notice.
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Post by William B on Mar 25, 2010 0:42:45 GMT -5
Hi Spring! I have been thinking about Family lately, partly because Willow/Tara came up in a conversation recently. I have a rambling comment about this analysis, which is one of the finest of yours I've read, I think. No one doubts the amount of depth in "The Body," "Fool for Love," "The Gift," or "Restless," but "Family" is a tough ep to crack and one that seems so simple, with Tara revealed to be purely human and "merely" the victim of the horrible patriarchy. It seems far too facile for a Joss ep. I love how you identify what the story bubbling below the surface is--that, yes, Tara is being oppressed by her blood family, but that magic and Willow are dangerous and that Mr. Maclay's attempts to protect her are, in part, genuine. I have a bit of trouble parsing this sometimes; while I see how the episode focuses on lies, surfaces and what's beneath them, half-stories, etc., I still don't see the hints as to what the subversive story is (which I guess is the point). Willow will indeed ruin the ending (though she has no literal responsibility for Warren's gun, she does have responsibility for the abuse beforehand and her betraying Tara's memory afterwards), but does Mr. Maclay have any real reason to believe she will? Are there any clues about Dark Willow rising in this episode? (There's a tiny hint I can see, when Maclay tells her that it's not her decision what Tara does, and she snaps, "I know that"--though I'd say it's generally justified.) Or is this a story that can only be understood in retrospect, with us knowing, I suppose, the whole story? One thing that interested me particularly is your comparison of Mr. Maclay to Spike--and Spike's hitting Tara here, with Spike's hitting Buffy in "Smashed"--as well as your comparison with Mr. Maclay to Buffy's father. It seems as if deliberate parallels are drawn between Buffy and Tara, and, closer in the episode's construction, Buffy and Tara both have: - A father who probably won't win any awards for best dad (Mr. Maclay/Hank) - A sibling named Donny/Dawnie - A "cousin" Beth...Faith? - A mother who passes away when Tara/Buffy are young--foreshadowing The Body - And both have an abbreviated lifespan--only Buffy will return, and Tara won't. The naming of Donny/Dawnie seems to be a very strong choice (I'm not so sure about Beth/Faith, but that's the most sense I can make out of Beth), and we know that at this time Joss planned for Joyce, Buffy and Tara all to meet their ends. So definite foreshadowing? I also love the contrast between Buffy and Tara as they find out that they were not "wrong": Tara is not a demon here, and is overjoyed; Buffy, when Tara tells her that she is purely human in "Dead Things," is crushed. And then Buffy and Tara are both hit by bullets from the same gun, but when Willow says "Bring her back," it's Buffy's eyes alone that open. It all feels very...meaningful, but I feel like I struggle for the meaning. I hope this comment (which is based on thoughts spurred on by your analysis, even if not the analysis itself!) is welcome. P.S. Because of your analyses, I'm highly attuned to any BtVS episodes where the word "come" is used in high supply. It does get distracting sometimes.
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Post by SpringSummers on Mar 25, 2010 12:16:50 GMT -5
Hi, William! I don't think it can be fully understood without knowing the whole story, but I think that the way Willow "snaps" as you say, and the parallels being drawn between Spike/Harmony and Willow/Tara do not bode well. And it doesn't take all that much "looking below the surface" to notice that Joss is telling us an idealized story . . . and he's also telling us that he's telling us an idealized story, where Tara & Willow have perfect love, Buffy & Co are White Hats, and Maclay & Co are Black Hats. Willow doesn't present many outward signs of what's to come, but I think about magic/the black arts as dynamite. You are a parent. You find out your child's best pal likes to play with dynamite. Said pal is quite young and has no professional training. You're gonna worry. So, IMO, Maclay is wrong to use this to try to manipulate Tara. But he's not wrong in his perception, and he has good reason to worry. Love this comparison - great catches on all this - I hadn't even noticed the Donny/Dawnie names! As far as meaning goes, one thing I think is that Joss always sets things up for us to try to understand the whys . . . why is it good news to Tara, and bad news to Buffy, that there is no demon inside? Why does Tara plainly feel liberated and relieved, and Buffy plainly feel more burdened and guilty? It means something wholly different to Buffy - to Tara it means "Hooray! There is nothing wrong with me!" To Buffy it means: "Oh, no! Something is terribly wrong with me!" And more than that, it's not something she finds easy to fight . . . like a demon. It's very welcome. Please feel free to comment on any and all analyses. I know what you mean. I do that too, now. I just suddenly noticed the constant use of the word "come" in reading the transcript, and then I compared the number of incidences of forms of the word "come" in that transcript and other BtVS transcripts, and it became clear that it was deliberate . . . and interesting. Joss is definitely playing with that word again in The Gift, though not as extensively.
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Post by William B on Mar 26, 2010 13:56:12 GMT -5
Thanks for the reply! I forgot to mention in my previous post the way Tara's spell, not to see the demon in her, has some similarities to the Lethe's bramble forgetting spell--it's not anywhere near as bad, not nearly as much of a violation, but in both cases Tara & Willow are afraid the other won't love them anymore, need to use magic to hide the truth from them, etc. Where could Willow have gotten the idea that using magic to lie to your friends is OK?
Yes, absolutely, especially the Spike/Harmony parallels. I like how you draw all the Spike/Willow parallels in your analyses incidentally (i.e. Lovers Walk, Something Blue, Triangle, Tough Love...). It's a shame that those two didn't have much screentime--their only real scenes (alone) together are, what, Lovers Walk, The Initiatve...Same Time Same Place?
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Post by baunger1 on May 8, 2012 11:54:50 GMT -5
Hi Spring!
Your discussion of Family kind of amazes me -- the level of complexity you unearth in an episode that is, at first blush, seemingly uncomplicated.
The Spike/Riley parallel highlighted by the bartender's comments (leading us to expect to see Spike, but seeing Riley instead) is really interesting. Spike is moving incrementally toward Buffy, and goodness; and Riley, at least right now, is moving away from Buffy and toward someplace very dark. Riley is taking Spike's place in the demon bar, and Spike is taking Riley's place in helping Buffy fight demons and being at her side. When Buffy tells Mr. MacLay, "We're family," Spike is with them. But Riley's in the bar, with a vampire.
Also interesting is your discussion of Tara's use of a spell that prevents Willow from seeing who she (thinks she) is in an attempt to preserve their relationship, and Willow's later use of the memory spell to prevent Tara from seeing their relationship as it really is, and to prevent Tara from being herself with Willow, in an attempt to accomplish the same end. It made me think of their reconciliation in Entropy, when Tara talks about how much hard work needs to be done in order to reestablish trust between her and Willow, but then dismisses it in favor of being kissed, now. The first time I saw that scene, I said "Uh, oh, no way, something really bad is going to happen -- they can't skip those steps and go for immediate gratification.". And I think this moment was the last straw for them, the catalyst for the "ruined ending" you point out. Because, even though they weren't using magic, they attempted once again to preserve the relationship by blinding themselves to a particular reality.
Thanks again for getting me thinking!
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Post by williamtheb on May 8, 2012 15:06:50 GMT -5
I hope it's okay if I interject before Spring gets back -- I just happened to check in and see Baunger's comment.
Baunger: Good thoughts on Riley vs. Spike. This is a big moment for them, isn't it? And it occurs to me that when we get to the final scene, where Willow & Tara have their floating-above-the-floor dance, with the song to the TV set, Riley is back in and Spike is gone again -- almost as if the illusion has set back in. Because Buffy/Riley is the illusion, and Buffy/Spike is the real thing, you know. Willow/Tara, I'd say, is both the Real Thing and the Illusion, but the tragedy is that they can't separate which is which.
This might actually be (for real) my favourite of Spring's reviews -- see my points above. Because while I liked the episode, the "We're family, you bad Maclays!" aspect seemed forced and hard to take before Spring pointed out the complexity: the Maclay's good motivations (as well as their obvious bad ones), the foreshadowing, the way lies and lies pile up. It's just amazing.
"Also interesting is your discussion of Tara's use of a spell that prevents Willow from seeing who she (thinks she) is in an attempt to preserve their relationship, and Willow's later use of the memory spell to prevent Tara from seeing their relationship as it really is, and to prevent Tara from being herself with Willow, in an attempt to accomplish the same end. It made me think of their reconciliation in Entropy, when Tara talks about how much hard work needs to be done in order to reestablish trust between her and Willow, but then dismisses it in favor of being kissed, now. The first time I saw that scene, I said "Uh, oh, no way, something really bad is going to happen -- they can't skip those steps and go for immediate gratification.". And I think this moment was the last straw for them, the catalyst for the "ruined ending" you point out. Because, even though they weren't using magic, they attempted once again to preserve the relationship by blinding themselves to a particular reality."
I have long thought -- well, after reading this review! -- that parallels are deliberately drawn between Willow's memory spell in All the Way and Tara's "see no demons" spell here. There are, I think, two major differences: the memory spell is much more extreme/much worse; and...well, I think Tara knows she is doing something wrong, whereas on some level, while I think Willow has an inkling she does, it's not the same degree. Tara is fully repentant at the end of the episode, whereas Willow isn't. But I think a lot of that is not as simple as, "Tara is better than Willow": Tara has a stronger moral compass, but we see, I think, that Willow, in this episode, also doesn't even register Tara's demon spell as an event. Buffy says "You could have gotten us killed" and Tara's father tries to use it as proof of how bad she is. Willow seems, to me, to be concerned primarily with whether Tara's love for her is real -- and willing not only to forgive, but not even to fully see how wrong what Tara did was. It reinforces Willow's willingness to do similar things to Tara in the future (only much worse), and plays into her...genuine confusion, in Tabula Rasa, that Tara is upset. She knows on some level these things are wrong, but it's not ingrained. And I definitely, definitely think that Entropy is playing into that as well, for both of them. The key difference is, again -- that Tara *knows* it's wrong to skip the important steps, she relents anyway, whereas Willow doesn't even know it's wrong. (I believe that in Entropy, Willow's dress from OMWF is hanging on the door -- referencing, again, the joys that those two had while living a lie.)
It occurs to me that maybe part of what Giles gave Willow in "Grave," when he let her take the "true essence" magic from him...was an inability to shut the world out: Willow, after she takes Giles' magic, CAN'T shut out either her feelings, or the unpleasant parts of the world. And she is left only with the truth -- the truth of her own pain, of Tara's (permanent) death, of the pain of the people around her -- which she is so unprepared for she nearly destroys the world, before Xander meets her on top of the world to say that he can still love her even if she is terrible, sees her for her "truth" (which is that she is both the girl who broke the crayon and the scary veiny one).
This show! It's so amazing. It's what keeps me going. And I'm grateful for so many smart fans to talk to!
/having stressful day and enjoyed writing this comment
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Post by SpringSummers on May 9, 2012 9:58:20 GMT -5
Hi! Yep, the signs are increasing that a "switcheroo" (Spike replacing Riley) is approaching. Yes, Willow's use and motives are worse, but it is very similar. You're welcome. That's some good thinking. I also thought "uh-oh," when Tara showed herself willing to let Willow back into her life without any real evidence that Willow had "learned her lesson." They weren't using magic, but they were indulging in "magical thinking" if you know what I mean. They were hoping that even without the work, somehow, "magically," all would be well.
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Post by SpringSummers on May 9, 2012 10:27:36 GMT -5
I hope it's okay if I interject before Spring gets back -- I just happened to check in and see Baunger's comment. Hi, williamtheb. Comment anytime, anywhere on these boards. Interesting thoughts on "the illusion" being back in place, as demonstrated by Riley's presence replacing Spike's. Buffy is good at "putting blinders on." It's not so much that what she sees "isn't real," it's more like she isn't putting it in the proper context, and doesn't understand it fully. She's blocking out some of the view. Of course, putting blinders on gives you the illusion that "only what is right in front of me exists." Of course, what is right in front of Buffy DOES exist - there IS a very good side to Riley, there is real love and feeling between Tara and Willow, etc . . . but if you won't see the whole, then you can't really understand or love or succesfully deal with the person or situation. I loved doing this review. Before I started watching it with my "analysis" cap on, I also had the "black hat/white hat" view of the ep and didn't think that much of the ep. But then I saw that amazing complexity you mention; how the ep is layered. Good analysis of the difference between Willow and Tara's approach. They are similarly motivated - wanting to lie/deceive so as not to lose the relationship. But Willow just has no concept of, or respect for, personal boundaries. And, not coincidentally, she is extremely self-absorbed. Tara, though still young, has had more learning experiences and has a less impulsive nature, and is more emotionally mature than Willow. Yes, good distinction. Tara does it even though she knows better, carried away by her desire to be with Willow; Willow simply doesn't even know better. I had not thought of this, but I think it is a great theory. It makes so much sense that ultimately, it is REALITY that Willow can't deal with. Right there with you, scooter.
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Post by baunger1 on May 10, 2012 14:48:16 GMT -5
"There are, I think, two major differences: the memory spell is much more extreme/much worse; and...well, I think Tara knows she is doing something wrong, whereas on some level, while I think Willow has an inkling she does, it's not the same degree. Tara is fully repentant at the end of the episode, whereas Willow isn't. But I think a lot of that is not as simple as, "Tara is better than Willow": Tara has a stronger moral compass, but we see, I think, that Willow, in this episode, also doesn't even register Tara's demon spell as an event. Buffy says "You could have gotten us killed" and Tara's father tries to use it as proof of how bad she is. Willow seems, to me, to be concerned primarily with whether Tara's love for her is real -- and willing not only to forgive, but not even to fully see how wrong what Tara did was. It reinforces Willow's willingness to do similar things to Tara in the future (only much worse), and plays into her...genuine confusion, in Tabula Rasa, that Tara is upset. She knows on some level these things are wrong, but it's not ingrained. And I definitely, definitely think that Entropy is playing into that as well, for both of them. The key difference is, again -- that Tara *knows* it's wrong to skip the important steps, she relents anyway, whereas Willow doesn't even know it's wrong."
"They are similarly motivated - wanting to lie/deceive so as not to lose the relationship. But Willow just has no concept of, or respect for, personal boundaries. And, not coincidentally, she is extremely self-absorbed.
Tara, though still young, has had more learning experiences and has a less impulsive nature, and is more emotionally mature than Willow."
This idea of Willow lacking a moral compass is really fascinating, when I think about the Spike/Willow parallels. To my mind, they bear the closest similarity to each other, in terms of story/character arc, except that those arcs are happening in different time frames. That is, they are both people who were outsiders and objects of derision among their peers, they were both rejected by their first (unrequited) loves, they were both rejected by their first significant romantic partner. And as a result, they both have deep feelings of self-loathing and insecurity that motivate them to develop and cultivate power and create powerful personae (?). Even when pre-soul Spike is trying to be "good," and even though he has an intellectual understanding of what is "good" and what is "evil," it's not ingrained, as you say. He can identify morality, but doesn't understand its underpinning, because he's a demon. I hadn't really thought before about how Willow similarly lacks a moral compass, and how that results from the corrupting way in which she uses magic. But it really fits.
Of course, by season 6, Spike is seeking an understanding of morality (before he even gets the soul, he's begging Buffy "explain it to me" in Dead Things), while Willow is sinking deeper and deeper into amorality, until she gets to a darker place than Spike probably ever does.
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Post by SpringSummers on May 15, 2012 20:51:27 GMT -5
"There are, I think, two major differences: the memory spell is much more extreme/much worse; and...well, I think Tara knows she is doing something wrong, whereas on some level, while I think Willow has an inkling she does, it's not the same degree. Tara is fully repentant at the end of the episode, whereas Willow isn't. But I think a lot of that is not as simple as, "Tara is better than Willow": Tara has a stronger moral compass, but we see, I think, that Willow, in this episode, also doesn't even register Tara's demon spell as an event. Buffy says "You could have gotten us killed" and Tara's father tries to use it as proof of how bad she is. Willow seems, to me, to be concerned primarily with whether Tara's love for her is real -- and willing not only to forgive, but not even to fully see how wrong what Tara did was. It reinforces Willow's willingness to do similar things to Tara in the future (only much worse), and plays into her...genuine confusion, in Tabula Rasa, that Tara is upset. She knows on some level these things are wrong, but it's not ingrained. And I definitely, definitely think that Entropy is playing into that as well, for both of them. The key difference is, again -- that Tara *knows* it's wrong to skip the important steps, she relents anyway, whereas Willow doesn't even know it's wrong." "They are similarly motivated - wanting to lie/deceive so as not to lose the relationship. But Willow just has no concept of, or respect for, personal boundaries. And, not coincidentally, she is extremely self-absorbed.
Tara, though still young, has had more learning experiences and has a less impulsive nature, and is more emotionally mature than Willow."This idea of Willow lacking a moral compass is really fascinating, when I think about the Spike/Willow parallels. To my mind, they bear the closest similarity to each other, in terms of story/character arc, except that those arcs are happening in different time frames. That is, they are both people who were outsiders and objects of derision among their peers, they were both rejected by their first (unrequited) loves, they were both rejected by their first significant romantic partner. And as a result, they both have deep feelings of self-loathing and insecurity that motivate them to develop and cultivate power and create powerful personae (?). Even when pre-soul Spike is trying to be "good," and even though he has an intellectual understanding of what is "good" and what is "evil," it's not ingrained, as you say. He can identify morality, but doesn't understand its underpinning, because he's a demon. I hadn't really thought before about how Willow similarly lacks a moral compass, and how that results from the corrupting way in which she uses magic. But it really fits. Of course, by season 6, Spike is seeking an understanding of morality (before he even gets the soul, he's begging Buffy "explain it to me" in Dead Things), while Willow is sinking deeper and deeper into amorality, until she gets to a darker place than Spike probably ever does. Interesting thoughts about the Spike/Willow comparisons. They are sort of on the same road, only going in opposite directions - Spike is reaching for the light, Willow is reaching for the darkness.
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