|
|
Post by William the Bloody on Sept 27, 2004 7:03:09 GMT -5
Let the discussion begin!
|
|
|
|
Post by Nickim on Sept 27, 2004 7:38:11 GMT -5
Spring, as always, you amaze me. I especially liked the point about why Spike can't lift Olaf's hammer. Spike not being physically strong enough never made sense, but him not being in control of his id, as represented by the hammer, makes perfect sense.
|
|
|
|
Post by SpringSummers on Sept 27, 2004 11:49:58 GMT -5
Spring, as always, you amaze me. I especially liked the point about why Spike can't lift Olaf's hammer. Spike not being physically strong enough never made sense, but him not being in control of his id, as represented by the hammer, makes perfect sense. Thanks, Nicki. And yep - I do think that Spike's powerlessness around Olaf (and his weapon) isn't carelessness on the part of the writers, but a very deliberate comment on Spike's "slave to his emotions-love's bitch" ways. More on Olaf & Spike in the next analysis - Crush. Vlad plans to have that up around the end of the week - would love to get your thoughts on that connection when the time comes. I spent way more time on Crush. I got so fascinated with all the stuff going on in it, that I had to make myself stop. It is the longest one I've done yet, even longer than Fool For Love. |
|
|
|
Post by Lissa on Sept 28, 2004 8:54:56 GMT -5
Thanks, Nicki. And yep - I do think that Spike's powerlessness around Olaf (and his weapon) isn't carelessness on the part of the writers, but a very deliberate comment on Spike's "slave to his emotions-love's bitch" ways. More on Olaf & Spike in the next analysis - Crush. Vlad plans to have that up around the end of the week - would love to get your thoughts on that connection when the time comes. I spent way more time on Crush. I got so fascinated with all the stuff going on in it, that I had to make myself stop. It is the longest one I've done yet, even longer than Fool For Love. Excellent review, Spring. I just saw The Gift again, and I didn't understand Spike comment on the hammer being to heavy. Now, I understand why  But, the hammer is weird anyway. Buffy could really him Glory with it, but in Triangle, it didn't really hurt Xander very much. Any explanation to that? |
|
|
|
Post by SpringSummers on Sept 28, 2004 9:30:05 GMT -5
Excellent review, Spring. I just saw The Gift again, and I didn't understand Spike comment on the hammer being to heavy. Now, I understand why But, the hammer is weird anyway. Buffy could really him Glory with it, but in Triangle, it didn't really hurt Xander very much. Any explanation to that? Thanks so much for your comments, Lissa. Good to hear from you. I don't remember where or how hard or how many times Olaf hit Xander with the hammer . . . and I haven't seen The Gift in quite awhile, so grains of salt, but here are my thoughts on this: First thought is simple: Glory was already weakened and Buffy hit her many times with the hammer. Olaf (I think) only hits Xander once. He does send him flying, but Xander demonstrates that even though he doesn't really have the strength, he's not afraid to try to stand up to Olaf. I do think that Xander is that way - I mean, he's still young and when he stands Anya up at the altar, we see that he hasn't really faced up to, or gotten control of "his inner demon." But he does what he has to do. He doesn't give up and by series end he seems to truly have grown and changed. Glory - I think Glory is in direct contrast to Season 4's Big Bad, Adam. Adam was entirely self-sufficient. He didn't even eat. He believed only in himself and considered himself complete unto himself. He mentions that he takes total responsibility for what's to come. He considers the world his oyster. Glory is entirely dependent. She can't go a day without sucking energy from others. She takes responsibility for nothing and blames others for everything. She feels completely out of place in the world. Adam is the living example of the folly of self-sufficiency and isolation taken to the extreme. The independent Adam is defeated by the power of joining together. Glory is the living example of the folly of relying on others completely - of developing no ability to sustain oneself, etc. She is defeated by Buffy's self-confidence. For all her denial of her Slayer, darker half, Buffy knows how to use that hammer - and she calls on every bit of herself to defeat Glory. The dependent Glory is defeated by a singular sacrifice of the self. Hmmm. I'm not sure I've answered your question. But that's the stuff that comes to mind. |
|
|
|
Post by Lissa on Sept 28, 2004 11:20:43 GMT -5
Thanks so much for your comments, Lissa. Good to hear from you. I don't remember where or how hard or how many times Olaf hit Xander with the hammer . . . and I haven't seen The Gift in quite awhile, so grains of salt, but here are my thoughts on this: First thought is simple: Glory was already weakened and Buffy hit her many times with the hammer. Olaf (I think) only hits Xander once. He does send him flying, but Xander demonstrates that even though he doesn't really have the strength, he's not afraid to try to stand up to Olaf. I do think that Xander is that way - I mean, he's still young and when he stands Anya up at the altar, we see that he hasn't really faced up to, or gotten control of "his inner demon." But he does what he has to do. He doesn't give up and by series end he seems to truly have grown and changed. Glory - I think Glory is in direct contrast to Season 4's Big Bad, Adam. Adam was entirely self-sufficient. He didn't even eat. He believed only in himself and considered himself complete unto himself. He mentions that he takes total responsibility for what's to come. He considers the world his oyster. Glory is entirely dependent. She can't go a day without sucking energy from others. She takes responsibility for nothing and blames others for everything. She feels completely out of place in the world. Adam is the living example of the folly of self-sufficiency and isolation taken to the extreme. The independent Adam is defeated by the power of joining together. Glory is the living example of the folly of relying on others completely - of developing no ability to sustain oneself, etc. She is defeated by Buffy's self-confidence. For all her denial of her Slayer, darker half, Buffy knows how to use that hammer - and she calls on every bit of herself to defeat Glory. The dependent Glory is defeated by a singular sacrifice of the self. Hmmm. I'm not sure I've answered your question. But that's the stuff that comes to mind. Okay, that was interesting. Maybe we should wait until you have reviewed The Gift about defeating Glory. But, you have most certainly a very interesting view I do agree that Glory is in complete contrast to ADAM. |
|
|
|
Post by LadyDi on Sept 29, 2004 19:15:22 GMT -5
Your comments about Spike's (lack of) strength in resisting Olaf stood out for me, because we will see a much stronger Spike (...the strongest warrior...) in s7. Again, we're not talking about physical strength.
Spike is a part of Buffy, and Buffy a part of Spike...ah, don't get me started. It was 'til death do them part, and Spike had to *stay dead* after his resurrection. His speech to Harm (AtS 5.9) sounded almost superstitious about it.
|
|
|
|
Post by SpringSummers on Sept 29, 2004 20:17:17 GMT -5
Your comments about Spike's (lack of) strength in resisting Olaf stood out for me, because we will see a much stronger Spike (...the strongest warrior...) in s7. Again, we're not talking about physical strength. Yes, we do see a much stronger Spike in S7, and in AtS S5. His growing psychological/emotional strength does start to be reflected in his physical strength . . . but I agree, it isn't about his physical strength. I really avoided much analyses while I watched AtS S5. Maybe by the time I get to doing a serious analysis of it, I'll feel more up to it. I think I was battling a kind of underlying deep disappointment about the end of BtVS and kept myself from getting as involved in AtS S5, maybe. Don't know. Just know my memory of it is sketchy, and unless I was supposed to do a guest review, I avoided looking very hard at it. On Buffy and Spike - definitely I think the set up is "Spike represents Buffy's darkside, a piece of herself she denies but at the same time is desperate to connect with" and the opposite for Spike - Buffy represents his "light side", a side of himself he denies but is desperate to connect with." More (much more) on that is coming up in my Crush analysis. Keep your eye open for it, Lady Di, as I would love to get your thoughts and reactions. |
|
|
|
Post by Spaced Out Looney on Oct 1, 2004 21:30:44 GMT -5
Thanks Spring, you bring up about several points I was anticipating you were going to mention and then some. Thanks!
Exactly what jumped out at me in this episode, along with an exchange along a similar vein earlier (I think about Dawn):
JOYCE: It still seems to me like there's a lot you don't know about this. I mean, is she dangerous?
BUFFY: No.
GILES: Well, now, wait just a second. I assume you're talking about her existence rather than her intentions.
Understanding the nature of Evil is complicated; there's really no clear cut classification. Its more about how others conceptualize people (including themselves) and things as good or evil and less about inherent nature. These two exchanges really jump out at me when I watch this episode.
This episode really lays out Spike's approach towards towards both Dawn and Buffy. He realizes that its safer to guide some one through something "wrong" and dangerous, if they are determined to do so. Lacking a soul, he has no qualms about people doing things he may intellectually understand as wrong, but I wonder if he had had a soul at this point how differently he would have acted in this regard.
About Glory/Ben relating to Buffy/Spike. I had never put that together before. I definitely got that the Glory/Ben thing was supposed to illustrate duality that exists in every character (forshadowing identity crises that reign supreme in season 6), and that Glory is a foil for Buffy (young, pretty, blonde, petite, superstrong, god/godlike, but lacking in a strong sense of duty and morality) Buffy pretty much makes that link clear when she says (a little defensively) "Glory is evil. And powerful. And in no way prettier than me." Spike=Ben, not so much. I thought during the Glory/Ben morphing back and forth at the end of the season that Glory, being conscience free, was supposed to represent Spike, and Ben, with his comments about wanting a "normal life" was supposed to represent Buffy, but I'm not sure. Maybe that will become clearer in later analyses.
About the Troll hammer. I had always taken that as a direct comparison of Spike and Buffy's strength. But you're right, that is a little silly; they are more closely matched than that. But Buffy is physically stronger than vampires, I believe; Angel makes mentions that in his series in "Sanctuary." I think that's really important to remember with everything that goes on in season 6, that despite appearances, Buffy is stronger than Spike, so the troll hammer also sort of serves as a reminder before all that happens.
About Ishtar, how intriguing! Thank you for making the time to look that reference up. It's so very appropriate for the Buffy/Spike relationship and the show in general that mixes sex and spirituality. Just another reminder of how subversive the show really is.
|
|
|
|
Post by SpringSummers on Oct 1, 2004 21:51:50 GMT -5
Thanks Spring, you bring up about several points I was anticipating you were going to mention and then some. Thanks! You're very welcome, and thanks for the feedback. Good points, and I agree. I don't think Spike=Ben in any general way. I did think there were some paralells drawn in this particular ep, though, as a way to use the Glory/Ben relationship to emphasize Buffy's own dual nature (and Spike's representation of one side of that nature. And vice versa as well, I mean Spike's dual nature, and Buffy being a part of him.) It's a pretty complex pic. Hard for me to sort out at times. There have been lots of references to duality in Season 5 - Dracula tells Buffy she has a dark side, Xander literally gets split in half, Glory and Ben are literally two sides of each other . . . I've always seen Buffy & Spike as fairly evenly matched in strength - the first time they meet, he almost kills her; he almost kills her again in Out of My Mind. Have never seen Sanctuary, but from what I have seen - I don't think of their physical strength as different to any significant degree. Certainly, it is not different enough to account for such a huge difference in the way they can handle the Olaf hammer. You're welcome! I try to remember to look up the little things because more often than not, they turn out to be related to what is going on. The show really is subversive more ways than meet the eye. I miss it! I hope Joss finds his way back to weekly TV. |
|
|
|
Post by Spaced Out Looney on Oct 1, 2004 22:47:54 GMT -5
I've always seen Buffy & Spike as fairly evenly matched in strength - the first time they meet, he almost kills her; he almost kills her again in Out of My Mind. Have never seen Sanctuary, but from what I have seen - I don't think of their physical strength as different to any significant degree. Certainly, it is not different enough to account for such a huge difference in the way they can handle the Olaf hammer. Hmm...that's true. OK, I don't know anymore. It just seems important especially when considering the Attempted Rape. I had always seen that more as an emotional assault than a physical one, i.e. it wasn't that she wasn't physically capable of fighting him off, even with her bruised back, but that she was so stunned and it took a little while to collect herself. Of course, her emotions give her power, so her physical strength varies from day to day depending on her mood? I guess its all related metaphorically. |
|
|
|
Post by LadyDi on Oct 1, 2004 23:35:52 GMT -5
Hmm...that's true. OK, I don't know anymore. It just seems important especially when considering the Attempted Rape. I had always seen that more as an emotional assault than a physical one, i.e. it wasn't that she wasn't physically capable of fighting him off, even with her bruised back, but that she was so stunned and it took a little while to collect herself. Of course, her emotions give her power, so her physical strength varies from day to day depending on her mood? I guess its all related metaphorically. This is very much my take on the AR as well, and thank you for putting it so clearly. Spike had no intention of hurting Buffy. He never even reached for his belt buckle or zipper. I see his assualt here as a mirror of her attack on him in the alley in Dead Things. She could not feel, whereas he felt too much. |
|
|
|
Post by SpringSummers on Oct 2, 2004 6:38:57 GMT -5
Hmm...that's true. OK, I don't know anymore. It just seems important especially when considering the Attempted Rape. I had always seen that more as an emotional assault than a physical one, i.e. it wasn't that she wasn't physically capable of fighting him off, even with her bruised back, but that she was so stunned and it took a little while to collect herself. Of course, her emotions give her power, so her physical strength varies from day to day depending on her mood? I guess its all related metaphorically. I had that feeling too, that Buffy is so stunned and hurt that it takes her a minute to get her wits about her, and shove him away. |
|
|
|
Post by SpringSummers on Oct 2, 2004 6:44:30 GMT -5
This is very much my take on the AR as well, and thank you for putting it so clearly. Spike had no intention of hurting Buffy. He never even reached for his belt buckle or zipper. I see his assualt here as a mirror of her attack on him in the alley in Dead Things. She could not feel, whereas he felt too much. Spike seems singularly intent on raping Buffy, to me. That's what he means by "I'm gonna make you feel it." He doesn't get very far, but that's because Buffy stops him. He's being absolutely monstrous here - so much so that it even gets through to him, which is a huge deal. I do agree that Buffy's attack on Spike is just as bad, but don't see that as mitigating for either one of them. |
|
|
|
Post by LadyDi on Oct 2, 2004 20:37:48 GMT -5
Spike seems singularly intent on raping Buffy, to me. That's what he means by "I'm gonna make you feel it." He doesn't get very far, but that's because Buffy stops him. He's being absolutely monstrous here - so much so that it even gets through to him, which is a huge deal. I do agree that Buffy's attack on Spike is just as bad, but don't see that as mitigating for either one of them. Again, I need to clarify. I don't think Spike went there with the intent of raping Buffy initially. But rape is about dominance (power) and Spike had very little of that in their relationship. I don't really feel Buffy's assault on him is a mitigating factor. Obviously JW doesn't. She admitted she was using Spike, apologized, and stopped. I was simply noting the parallel. |
|
