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Post by SpringSummers on Oct 2, 2004 21:00:23 GMT -5
Again, I need to clarify. I don't think Spike went there with the intent of raping Buffy initially. But rape is about dominance (power) and Spike had very little of that in their relationship. I don't really feel Buffy's assault on him is a mitigating factor. Obviously JW doesn't. She admitted she was using Spike, apologized, and stopped. I was simply noting the parallel. I think we probably agree on the overall view of the AR. Like you (I think) I believe that Spike went to see Buffy for the reason he claimed: To apologize. But then it all got away from him,and he ran into that "not knowing when to stop" problem - that scene plays so much like that to me . . . Spike is just so . . . he's so gone, so completely gone, it is really scary. I am going to have a hard time analyzing that ep. The AR is a very atypical rape scene - of course, first and foremost, no rape takes place. Secondly, we know both parties very well, and we know how sad and needy and desperate they both are. And it is such a painful scene, so raw without being at all graphic - emotionally raw - for both parties. I'm finishing up I Was Made to Love You and was thinking that doing The Body next is just going to be the hardest one I'll ever do. But I'm thinking now Seeing Red will be a very close second.
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Post by Lola m on Oct 3, 2004 11:47:42 GMT -5
Spring – another lovely bit of writing! Loved your thoughts about the nature of how “real” Dawn is, how like or unlike this is to the struggle of everyone to figure out how they fit in, where they belong. In particular, I loved your bringing it all back to the episode title, when you said: It’s so obvious, and yet I had never quite looked at the title that way even though it’s so much the heart of the episode. Dawn’s plaintive “Is this blood? Am I real?” (MT does such an amazing acting job in this episode, and that must have been one of the harder scenes to do.) Buffy’s instinctual understanding that what Dawn really needs is to know where she comes from, what her history is, “real answers”. The conversations between Joyce and Buffy about how Dawn isn’t, yet is (in the most basic, profound way) their daughter/sister – one of which sends Dawn out into the night. Those final Buffy lines: “ . . .it's Summers’ blood. It’s just like mine. It doesn’t matter where you came from, or how you got here. You are my sister.” Also loved the way you get at the “blurring lines” – the ambiguity over what is “bad” who is “evil”. Who’s on what side (Spike, anyone?) and who’s really not completely on the side we thought (Ben, anyone?). Buffy and Joyce in the kitchen, still not quite sure what Dawn being the key means. The scoobies suddenly faced with a whole different set of possible feelings about Dawn. Dawn’s questions to Glory about “is the key evil?” (hinting at the conversation she’ll later have with Spike). And no one really getting any definitive answers at this point. Finally – Ishtar – Spike’s ashes – wicked, Spring. Very wicked! I like wicked. ;D Lola
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Post by Spaced Out Looney on Oct 3, 2004 13:34:15 GMT -5
Not to get too much into AR (which I mentioned because I thought it was related to the Troll Hammar, physical strength, and emotional strength/control of one's id) at this point, but since it appeared to Spike by "Seeing Red" that the only power he had in the relationship was that he could push Buffy's buttons sexually, the AR was about power, just not in the way you'd normally think.
I had always thought that Buffy's insistence that Dawn needed "real answers" was indicative of Buffy's tendencies to distance herself emotionally and project herself onto other peoples problems (and objectifying people a little). What Joyce was trying to tell her about the importance of family bonds, finally got through to Buffy in the end.
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Post by SpringSummers on Oct 4, 2004 13:41:35 GMT -5
Spring – another lovely bit of writing! Loved your thoughts about the nature of how “real” Dawn is, how like or unlike this is to the struggle of everyone to figure out how they fit in, where they belong. In particular, I loved your bringing it all back to the episode title, when you said: It’s so obvious, and yet I had never quite looked at the title that way even though it’s so much the heart of the episode. Dawn’s plaintive “Is this blood? Am I real?” (MT does such an amazing acting job in this episode, and that must have been one of the harder scenes to do.) Buffy’s instinctual understanding that what Dawn really needs is to know where she comes from, what her history is, “real answers”. The conversations between Joyce and Buffy about how Dawn isn’t, yet is (in the most basic, profound way) their daughter/sister – one of which sends Dawn out into the night. Those final Buffy lines: “ . . .it's Summers’ blood. It’s just like mine. It doesn’t matter where you came from, or how you got here. You are my sister.” Also loved the way you get at the “blurring lines” – the ambiguity over what is “bad” who is “evil”. Who’s on what side (Spike, anyone?) and who’s really not completely on the side we thought (Ben, anyone?). Buffy and Joyce in the kitchen, still not quite sure what Dawn being the key means. The scoobies suddenly faced with a whole different set of possible feelings about Dawn. Dawn’s questions to Glory about “is the key evil?” (hinting at the conversation she’ll later have with Spike). And no one really getting any definitive answers at this point. Finally – Ishtar – Spike’s ashes – wicked, Spring. Very wicked! I like wicked. ;D Lola Thanks for the nice feedback and great input, Lola. I do think that we see "blurring lines" whenever Spike and Dawn are together. Spike allows Dawn access to the darkside; Dawn allows Spike access to the light. He's always helping her do something questionable, she's always making him feel his soft side. It fits with the idea that they represent two sides of Buffy, and also fits with what is going on with each of them, independent of Buffy.
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Post by SpringSummers on Oct 4, 2004 13:46:10 GMT -5
Not to get too much into AR (which I mentioned because I thought it was related to the Troll Hammar, physical strength, and emotional strength/control of one's id) at this point, but since it appeared to Spike by "Seeing Red" that the only power he had in the relationship was that he could push Buffy's buttons sexually, the AR was about power, just not in the way you'd normally think. I had always thought that Buffy's insistence that Dawn needed "real answers" was indicative of Buffy's tendencies to distance herself emotionally and project herself onto other peoples problems (and objectifying people a little). What Joyce was trying to tell her about the importance of family bonds, finally got through to Buffy in the end. Yes - agreed on the AR/power. And, though I hadn't thought of it, I also agree on the thoughts about Buffy distancing herself emotionally. Thanks for adding this insight to the discussion. Buffy's characteristic "distancing" does show in her "Dawn's needs answers" as opposed to Joyce's "Dawn needs a sister" discussion. I do think the scene is a deliberate reminder of Buffy's own search for answers - but these two ideas coexist nicely.
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Post by Spaced Out Looney on Oct 15, 2004 1:41:02 GMT -5
This is a good catch, Spring. I had always noticed the unicorn candle in the magic shop, but the other two images had escaped me until I rewatched the episode and really looked for them. It occurs to me that unicorns can represent purity and innocence like you say, but more than that, unicorns always seem to be associated with Harmony; that made me think that the images were alluding the themes of The Real Me, discovering and defining identity and so forth.
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Post by LadyDi on Oct 15, 2004 23:44:30 GMT -5
This is another interesting exploration of family, and what makes a family. Dawn is very much in the role of an adopted child here.
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