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Post by Queen E on Oct 13, 2004 18:01:21 GMT -5
Your patronage is valued.
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Post by Lola m on Oct 16, 2004 12:55:42 GMT -5
Brava, Erin! Brava! Yep, yep, yep! This is the father story that the other eps have been leading us toward! But it is also about larger issues than just relationships with fathers - it's about how those issues, as all our experiences in life, can influence our future behavior. I hadn't noticed all the examples of balance and how it can be unbalanced that you mentioned. Yet, in hindsight, I can see how incredibly important this is in the Angelverse. I'll have to keep an eye out for it now. Thanks for pointing it out! I like the way you point out that "Angelus assumes he has shifted the balance in his favor when he goes one-on-one with his father". Because of course, as Darla points out so well, he has simply ensured that the power of his desire for the good opinion of his father will simply haunt the rest of his unlife. The scenes with Kate and her father are so bittersweet in this episode, because he dies without them ever really connecting. They love each other, but don't really understand each other. And I really love how you so clearly explain the parallel between Angel and Mr Lockley. Good point about Angel (and Connor) repeating the errors of Liam's father. "Hit first and ask questions later" is a running theme of a problem for Angel. All the way from early episode instances of mistaken enemies up to season 5. Very clever catch on: "A nice twist: Darla appreciates God’s gift, Liam’s father doesn’t". Also, when talking about Mr Lockley, "Notice how many times he uses the word “wrong” in that exchange; it’s as if he knows he’s done something, well, wrong". Yup. Loved your final summary, bringing it all back to the power. Man, we give Joss and Co. such props for continuity of story or plot points (and berate them when they slip up   ) but the most important continuity of all is continuity of themes and main philosophical beliefs. And those certainly stay true throughout BtVS and AtS. Again, just a lovely job, Erin. Lola P.S. Nice job on finding just the right place for your “break me off a piece of that man-meat” quote. ;D ;D |
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Post by Patti - S'cubie Cutie on Oct 16, 2004 16:11:13 GMT -5
Brava, Erin! Brava! Yep, yep, yep! This is the father story that the other eps have been leading us toward! But it is also about larger issues than just relationships with fathers - it's about how those issues, as all our experiences in life, can influence our future behavior. I hadn't noticed all the examples of balance and how it can be unbalanced that you mentioned. Yet, in hindsight, I can see how incredibly important this is in the Angelverse. I'll have to keep an eye out for it now. Thanks for pointing it out! I like the way you point out that "Angelus assumes he has shifted the balance in his favor when he goes one-on-one with his father". Because of course, as Darla points out so well, he has simply ensured that the power of his desire for the good opinion of his father will simply haunt the rest of his unlife. The scenes with Kate and her father are so bittersweet in this episode, because he dies without them ever really connecting. They love each other, but don't really understand each other. And I really love how you so clearly explain the parallel between Angel and Mr Lockley. Good point about Angel (and Connor) repeating the errors of Liam's father. "Hit first and ask questions later" is a running theme of a problem for Angel. All the way from early episode instances of mistaken enemies up to season 5. Very clever catch on: "A nice twist: Darla appreciates God’s gift, Liam’s father doesn’t". Also, when talking about Mr Lockley, "Notice how many times he uses the word “wrong” in that exchange; it’s as if he knows he’s done something, well, wrong". Yup. Loved your final summary, bringing it all back to the power. Man, we give Joss and Co. such props for continuity of story or plot points (and berate them when they slip up ) but the most important continuity of all is continuity of themes and main philosophical beliefs. And those certainly stay true throughout BtVS and AtS. Again, just a lovely job, Erin. Lola P.S. Nice job on finding just the right place for your “break me off a piece of that man-meat” quote. ;D ;D EETAH! I love commenting after Lola does - she always says the things I would if I had the patience and were as thoughtful and insightful. So...I agree with Lola - you did a wonderful job with this really difficult, interesting but heartbreaking episode. The themes could be as on the surface as 'father /child relationship=hard' or as deep as your analysis took them. The lessons available for learning in the ep are so important, and so tragic if we don't. You got all that and held it out to us - I have great respect for your skill and the hard work you put into these reviews Erin - examining life through Joss's eyes ...not a walk in the park most times. Thank you for doing it for us. |
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Post by Karen on Oct 17, 2004 16:10:58 GMT -5
Your patronage is valued. I love this episode. Your review of it brought out so many aspects of it that I didn't think of before. Especially the part about the balancing demons, etc. I watch this ep today. The one scene that effected me differently this time was the scene between Liam and his father when Liam left home. There was such a look of pain on his father's face when he said "I was never in your way, boy." I do believe that Liam's father always tried to do what he thought was best for him. But Liam could never see it. He just always saw the disappointment in his father's eyes. And the more he dealt with that disappointment, the worse he felt inside. It unbalanced him. Much the same way the balancing demons were changed by the drug. Altho, not like the demon who fed them the drug it to gain power, Liam's father did try to get Liam to change - out of love and concern for him, altho I think a little of a father's embarrassment of him was also involved. That's the only way he knew how to be a father, I suppose. Such miscommunication between the two breaks my heart. I think Kate and her father's relationship parallels Angel and his father's in this regard. Trevor did what he did out of love for his daughter - so that she would never have to compromise her goodness. He didn't understand that all she ever wanted from him was his respect and love. His acceptance. So sad. Angelus said to Darla after she told him that love would infect their hearts even tho they quit beating: "Love? Is this the work of love?" I also never liked the story of the Prodigal Son. It seemed so unfair to me. I always enjoy your reviews, Erin, even if I don't have the chance to comment. And I enjoy everyone else's insightful comments, too. {{S'cubies}} |
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Post by Lola m on Oct 17, 2004 18:15:01 GMT -5
I love this episode. Your review of it brought out so many aspects of it that I didn't think of before. Especially the part about the balancing demons, etc. I watch this ep today. The one scene that effected me differently this time was the scene between Liam and his father when Liam left home. There was such a look of pain on his father's face when he said "I was never in your way, boy." I do believe that Liam's father always tried to do what he thought was best for him. But Liam could never see it. He just always saw the disappointment in his father's eyes. And the more he dealt with that disappointment, the worse he felt inside. It unbalanced him. Much the same way the balancing demons were changed by the drug. Altho, not like the demon who fed them the drug it to gain power, Liam's father did try to get Liam to change - out of love and concern for him, altho I think a little of a father's embarrassment of him was also involved. That's the only way he knew how to be a father, I suppose. Such miscommunication between the two breaks my heart. I think Kate and her father's relationship parallels Angel and his father's in this regard. Trevor did what he did out of love for his daughter - so that she would never have to compromise her goodness. He didn't understand that all she ever wanted from him was his respect and love. His acceptance. So sad. Angelus said to Darla after she told him that love would infect their hearts even tho they quit beating: "Love? Is this the work of love?" I also never liked the story of the Prodigal Son. It seemed so unfair to me. I always enjoy your reviews, Erin, even if I don't have the chance to comment. And I enjoy everyone else's insightful comments, too. {{S'cubies}} Bolding added by me to point out my favorite part of your post, Karen. Because it is this aspect of the relationship between Kate and her dad (and Liam and his dad - as you and Erin point out so well, they are paralleled in this ep) that is particularly sad to me. The love is there, but keeps getting hidden by miscommunication and misunderstanding. Lola |
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Post by Queen E on Oct 18, 2004 16:28:35 GMT -5
Brava, Erin! Brava! Yep, yep, yep! This is the father story that the other eps have been leading us toward! But it is also about larger issues than just relationships with fathers - it's about how those issues, as all our experiences in life, can influence our future behavior. Yes! The more you dig, the more you find in these eps. Yes, they are both "grave" men in this episode. And so much about Trevor's approach to fatherhood foreshadows Connor; the tough decisions you make to ensure the care and/or happiness of your child. In a less extreme way, Trevor's quest to keep his daughter secure by any means necessary parallels Angel's later willingness to pay any price, or have other people pay any price, to save Connor from Holtz, and later to save Connor from Connor. There are definite difficulties in all three generations: Dad of Liam, Liam/Angel, and Connor, in compromise and strategy. In Season 4, they had to bring in Faith, not just to capture Angelus, but to keep Connor in line...there is some kind of genetic stubbornness in all three that leads to the absolute worst outcome of any situation: Liam leaving and falling straight into Darla's arms because of his father's inability to bend at all, Angel's "kill 'em all" attitude (pick your season), Connor's unwillingness to see anything good in his father. Thank you on all counts. That's why I tend to cut them a lot of slack on continuity errors; I mean, how many different dates of birth did we get for Buffy in Season 1? But 99% of the time, the character continuity is spot on. |
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Post by Queen E on Oct 18, 2004 16:33:27 GMT -5
EETAH! I love commenting after Lola does - she always says the things I would if I had the patience and were as thoughtful and insightful. So...I agree with Lola - you did a wonderful job with this really difficult, interesting but heartbreaking episode. The themes could be as on the surface as 'father /child relationship=hard' or as deep as your analysis took them. The lessons available for learning in the ep are so important, and so tragic if we don't. You got all that and held it out to us - I have great respect for your skill and the hard work you put into these reviews Erin - examining life through Joss's eyes ...not a walk in the park most times. Thank you for doing it for us.  Thank you for reading them and making sure I don't sound like a dumb-dumb or crazy person. This was a hard episode to analyze; there was so many things in it. And it is tragic; all these seemingly unimportant events or moments, and all of them end in pain and heartbreak. It ties in so nicely with what Whistler says in "Becoming Part I," which we see footage of in this episode: "Bottom line is, even if you see 'em coming, you're not ready for the big moments." |
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Post by Queen E on Oct 18, 2004 16:39:53 GMT -5
I love this episode. Your review of it brought out so many aspects of it that I didn't think of before. Especially the part about the balancing demons, etc. I watch this ep today. The one scene that effected me differently this time was the scene between Liam and his father when Liam left home. There was such a look of pain on his father's face when he said "I was never in your way, boy." I do believe that Liam's father always tried to do what he thought was best for him. But Liam could never see it. He just always saw the disappointment in his father's eyes. And the more he dealt with that disappointment, the worse he felt inside. It unbalanced him. Much the same way the balancing demons were changed by the drug. Altho, not like the demon who fed them the drug it to gain power, Liam's father did try to get Liam to change - out of love and concern for him, altho I think a little of a father's embarrassment of him was also involved. That's the only way he knew how to be a father, I suppose. Such miscommunication between the two breaks my heart. I think Kate and her father's relationship parallels Angel and his father's in this regard. Trevor did what he did out of love for his daughter - so that she would never have to compromise her goodness. He didn't understand that all she ever wanted from him was his respect and love. His acceptance. So sad. Angelus said to Darla after she told him that love would infect their hearts even tho they quit beating: "Love? Is this the work of love?" I also never liked the story of the Prodigal Son. It seemed so unfair to me. I always enjoy your reviews, Erin, even if I don't have the chance to comment. And I enjoy everyone else's insightful comments, too. {{S'cubies}} Thanks, Karen! It wasn't until I rewatched it with an eye towards themes beyond, as Patti says above: Father+sons=bad that the balance demons weren't a throwaway. Just as the hellmouth served as a nice metaphor for high school on Buffy, the demons we see on Angel are often thematic red flags. And you're right; it was that disappointment that unnerved Liam, as well as the "I was never in your way, boy." I think that was the last straw for him. It is, in many ways, easier to deal with things in black and white: "My dad hates me," "my dad's a bastard and hypocrite." Trevor's right; Angel won't truly understand that grey area or "why father's do what they do" until he is faced with the complexity of Connor. Because Connor says all of those things out loud, and frequently. Thank you so much for your thoughts, Karen; every time I read the comments hear I learn even more about the episode! {{{KAREN}}} |
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Post by Nickim on Oct 19, 2004 9:49:07 GMT -5
I really enjoyed this review, Erin. Eetah on Lola's comments.
I must disagree with the unfairness of the Prodigal Son parable. The son who stayed at home wasn't treated unfairly. He had his father's love and protection all along, but he didn't seem to appreciate it much. If we're the son who stayed at home, we should be happy our brother is safely home, not jealous because he's getting a feast. It's one of my favorite parables, because it shows how willing God is to forgive us and how much we wants to help us.
I think Liam's father probably felt like he'd done everything he could, but Liam didn't appreciate it. Sometimes we have to "hit bottom" in order to appreciate how much our parents have given us. "You don't know what you got 'til it's gone." Some people never learn that lesson, and Darla made sure that Liam didn't get the chance. It was only later, when he was Angel, that he started to realize that his father probably didn't mean it when he told him 'to get out and not come back.' And, as you said, when Angel was trying to help Connor was when he truly knew how difficult it is to deal with a self-destructive child. Everyone feels sorry for Angel when he's dealing with teenage Connor, but I feel sorry for Liam's father, too. Yes, he's harsh and abusive, but he could see that the path Liam was on could only lead to him to harm, just like Angel could see what would happen to Connor.
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Post by Sue on Oct 19, 2004 15:38:13 GMT -5
I really enjoyed this review, Erin. Eetah on Lola's comments. I must disagree with the unfairness of the Prodigal Son parable. The son who stayed at home wasn't treated unfairly. He had his father's love and protection all along, but he didn't seem to appreciate it much. If we're the son who stayed at home, we should be happy our brother is safely home, not jealous because he's getting a feast. It's one of my favorite parables, because it shows how willing God is to forgive us and how much we wants to help us. I think Liam's father probably felt like he'd done everything he could, but Liam didn't appreciate it. Sometimes we have to "hit bottom" in order to appreciate how much our parents have given us. "You don't know what you got 'til it's gone." Some people never learn that lesson, and Darla made sure that Liam didn't get the chance. It was only later, when he was Angel, that he started to realize that his father probably didn't mean it when he told him 'to get out and not come back.' And, as you said, when Angel was trying to help Connor was when he truly knew how difficult it is to deal with a self-destructive child. Everyone feels sorry for Angel when he's dealing with teenage Connor, but I feel sorry for Liam's father, too. Yes, he's harsh and abusive, but he could see that the path Liam was on could only lead to him to harm, just like Angel could see what would happen to Connor. Go Nicki with the "fair and balanced"--I'll get back to that. Erin, Thanks for all your hard work on the analyses. I loved the sarcastic "maybe they've evolved." I think Joss clearly feels like humans aren't necessarily the most evolved species possible. The whole Liam's father's behavior to Angel to Connor thread had a very biblical "sins of the father shall be visited upon the son" flavor. The (grand)father was not a good parent. He ended up dead by vampire bite (I hesitate to say by his own son because I doubt that absent the demon Liam would have killed his father)--but at least he had half a life. But his son's fate is even worse: turned into (soulless) vampire, damned for eternity--and in his youth. (Except for that little quirk of cursing later on.) And finally the son perhaps suffers most of all--kidnapped as an infant (no normal life at all), raised in a hell dimension by a man full of hate who perhaps abused him and at the very least twisted him. Finally, killed by his own father. Ouch! One thing Angel did by giving Connor a new life (and parents) was to hopefully break this horrible chain thru generations. And I love your final summation: Now, back to Nicki's comment. I used to agree with Erin and Karen that the parable of the prodigal son seemed at first glance to be unfair. But I think Nicki is right to point out that it's not about treating the sons equally, it's about meeting their needs as individuals. Neither son had a right to expect anything from the father. An inheritance is not a right. Yet the father freely gifted both of them with far more than they had right to expect. When the younger son came home he had learned his lesson about expectations. He fully understood that he had no right to expect anything from his father. So he was doubly grateful for the grace extended to him. The older son on the other hand it seems was not grateful for what his father had given him. He was only ungrateful when he felt he deserved more--an expectation he had no right to, or need of--he was simply expressing both envy and greed. The father didn't owe either son anything. The fact that he showered abundance on the younger son out of joy does not mean he loved his older son less. Grace (like forgiveness) is not given because one deserves it, but because one needs it. A lesson the younger son had learned, but not the older son. And, I'm not sure how this applies to Angel or the episode, but I'll think about it. |
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Post by Queen E on Oct 22, 2004 10:38:01 GMT -5
I really enjoyed this review, Erin. Eetah on Lola's comments. I must disagree with the unfairness of the Prodigal Son parable. The son who stayed at home wasn't treated unfairly. He had his father's love and protection all along, but he didn't seem to appreciate it much. If we're the son who stayed at home, we should be happy our brother is safely home, not jealous because he's getting a feast. It's one of my favorite parables, because it shows how willing God is to forgive us and how much we wants to help us. I think Liam's father probably felt like he'd done everything he could, but Liam didn't appreciate it. Sometimes we have to "hit bottom" in order to appreciate how much our parents have given us. "You don't know what you got 'til it's gone." Some people never learn that lesson, and Darla made sure that Liam didn't get the chance. It was only later, when he was Angel, that he started to realize that his father probably didn't mean it when he told him 'to get out and not come back.' And, as you said, when Angel was trying to help Connor was when he truly knew how difficult it is to deal with a self-destructive child. Everyone feels sorry for Angel when he's dealing with teenage Connor, but I feel sorry for Liam's father, too. Yes, he's harsh and abusive, but he could see that the path Liam was on could only lead to him to harm, just like Angel could see what would happen to Connor. Indeed; and much as Lola pointed out above, the parallel between Kate/Trevor and Liam/Liam's dad extends to the fact that neither really got any resolution. |
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Post by Queen E on Oct 22, 2004 10:45:46 GMT -5
Go Nicki with the "fair and balanced"--I'll get back to that. Erin, Thanks for all your hard work on the analyses. I loved the sarcastic "maybe they've evolved." I think Joss clearly feels like humans aren't necessarily the most evolved species possible. The whole Liam's father's behavior to Angel to Connor thread had a very biblical "sins of the father shall be visited upon the son" flavor. The (grand)father was not a good parent. He ended up dead by vampire bite (I hesitate to say by his own son because I doubt that absent the demon Liam would have killed his father)--but at least he had half a life. But his son's fate is even worse: turned into (soulless) vampire, damned for eternity--and in his youth. (Except for that little quirk of cursing later on.) And finally the son perhaps suffers most of all--kidnapped as an infant (no normal life at all), raised in a hell dimension by a man full of hate who perhaps abused him and at the very least twisted him. Finally, killed by his own father. Ouch! One thing Angel did by giving Connor a new life (and parents) was to hopefully break this horrible chain thru generations. And I love your final summation: Wow, Sue. You are absolutely right. And because of the obvious enjoyment Angelus got out of being evil, it's easy to forget the tragedy of Liam's fate. He wasn't a good man, but certainly didn't deserve that. But, then again, what difference would Liam have made, as opposed to Angel, in the world had things not happened this way? Excellent explanation, Sue. That makes a lot of sense in that context. My opinion is that it loosely ties to Angel's comment about "the price we pay for one mistake isn't commensurate with the offense." He was speaking to Wesley's assertion that Trevor Lockley had been warned already and his fate was up to himself. Whereas Angel is, in many ways, extending grace to Lockley; not quibbling over what he's done, or why he's done it any longer, just try to save him. And this is going to be extended again in a few episodes when Faith returns. |
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Post by Riff on Oct 24, 2004 6:35:14 GMT -5
Very insightful stuff, Erin! I would add that another positive father in the Buffyverse is Roger Burkle. Though he is clearly very nurturing and protective, it has been conspicuously shown on every occasion we’ve seen him that he considers his daughter an adult, respects her decisions, and allows her to be her own person. Presumably this has implications for- but I won’t be predictable. Your observations on the theme of balance are spot on. AtS especially has consistently shown loss of balance as having terrible consequences, ultimately culminating in that alley (IMO). I particularly liked what you said about the paralleled father/child relationships, and how you move on from that to discuss the echoes between Liam and Trevor. The problems of a lack of connection are also a big theme in the series (one introduced by Kate, of course). Communication difficulties have been behind many of the negative events. Had Liam not become Angelus, and managed to get onto the straight and narrow, do you think he would have become like his father? You certainly suggest that some of who Angel and Connor are has come from that man. Is it possible Liam would have become puritanical (in a Catholic way ), ultimately denying his sinful youth as it is implied his father has done? *slaps forhead* I’d missed that completely. Brilliant. And eetah on the power of names and words in general. BTW, as the nominative form of the Latin word for Angel, “Angelus” is a noun in action. Liam is, interestingly enough, the Irish short form of William… *smiles* He had a long way to go at this point, didn’t he? Though what we’ve learnt of his back story explains much of that. Eetah again on your conclusion about how Angel and Spike are, in a sense, trapped in childhood. Another metaphor of respressed and recurring trauma. Hmmmm. Perhaps I should buy an analyst’s couch and grow a beard? ;D |
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Post by Queen E on Oct 24, 2004 16:36:40 GMT -5
Very insightful stuff, Erin! I would add that another positive father in the Buffyverse is Roger Burkle. Though he is clearly very nurturing and protective, it has been conspicuously shown on every occasion we’ve seen him that he considers his daughter an adult, respects her decisions, and allows her to be her own person. Presumably this has implications for- but I won’t be predictable. I completely agree. He might be the only positive father figure we've ever seen in the Buffy or Angelverse. Except Angel when Connor was an infant. As much as some complained about the sillliness of Angel around baby Connor, I thought it was kind of delightful. There was nice moments of all of them "parenting" together: Cordy, Wes, Gunn, Fred, and, of course, Angel. It's tragic to contemplate what a cool kid Connor would have been if he'd been allowed to grow up in that environment. Thank you. At the risk of sounding like a broken record, this theme is revisited over and over throughout the series. As to Liam becoming his father, well, in some ways, that's what Angel is to Angelus, IMO. Under extreme stress, we can see the black and white thinking that shaped him. And certainly in "Spin the Bottle" we see that Connor views him in that way. Perhaps it's more about the perception of the father rather than the father himself. Because when we see that accusation leveled by Connor, we the viewer can site (if we're huge geeks) numerous examples of where Connor is mistaken in his thinking. We don't have that for Liam's father, but a hint that everything is not as it seems is when his father says, "I was never in your way, boy." *grin* I'm starting to wonder if this is a pattern with this name. We've got Billy, the little boy from "Nightmares," William the Bloody, Liam, Billy the demon. As if the name is a sign that something wicked this way comes. Oh definitely. You can put up a stand and help all S'cubies get in touch with their inner child. Or something. As much as I missed Doyle, Wesley ended up turning out to be one of the most layered characters on either show. Hopefully Season 6 will explore that in even more depth. (See, still haven't given up hope.) |
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) but the most important continuity of all is continuity of themes and main philosophical beliefs. And those certainly stay true throughout BtVS and AtS.
Thank you for reading them and making sure I don't sound like a dumb-dumb or crazy person.
