BLIND DATE: The Good, the Bad, the Electromagnetic

[Queen E]

Post it, baby, yeah!

[Lola m]

Another fine bit o' writing, Erin! Can you believe you're almost to the end of the first season? I'm really looking forward to what you have to say about second season's Angel visit to the dark side and then the wonderful Pylea ending arc. So much plotty goodness in season 2.

Vanessa as a tool. Wonderful imagery to compare her to the sidewalk toys we see at her introduction. And it nicely mirrors Lindsey's storyline in this ep as well.

And eetah, eetah, eetah on:

This episode, more so than any Lindsey episode from Season 1, really sets the groundwork for his return and subsequent death in Season 5. The decisions that both Angel and Lindsey make deepen our understanding of both their pasts and their mutual future.

At the scene where Angel is ranting in his office about W&H, and talks about their "no guilt, no torment, no consequences" - and about how he misses that. Well, if that isn't both a clue to season 2 as well as an arrow shot straight towards season 5, I'll eat my hat.

I also noticed the similarities between Holland's speech and that of TFE. Power - how it's used, how it's abused. It's another one of Joss' big themes, isn't it? We see it in all his shows - BtVS, AtS, Firefly. I also agree wholeheartedly with your reading of Lindsey at this point of his life. Holland has got him pegged completely. He wouldn't have actually let Lindsey walk out the door if he didn't know he'd be walking right back in again. He's still doing the "stepping" - or so he thinks.

No, the real moral crisis that's coming isn't Lindsey's. It's Angel's. Lindsey will be instrumental in bringing Darla back, which will lead to the first crisis in season two, culminating in a roomful of dead lawyers. And we'll see Lindsey again in season five, when this time it's Angel that could be taunted with: "There's always a choice. You sold your soul for a fifth floor office."

This is such a key episode, somewhat masquerading as simply a next-to-last ep / good season ender kind of thing. But it really sets us up the rest of the whole series, doesn't it? Not the least reason being that we are first introduced to the scroll that contains the Shanshu prophesy.

Lola

Brava, Erin!

[Spaced Out Looney]

Lola said:

At the scene where Angel is ranting in his office about W&H, and talks about their "no guilt, no torment, no consequences" - and about how he misses that. Well, if that isn't both a clue to season 2 as well as an arrow shot straight towards season 5, I'll eat my hat.

Eetah on this. God, that bit really scares me; in my mind it's the scariest Angel moment, scarier than when he has no soul, because here he knows what's right, but desires it anyway, and we see that that desire is always with him. And then there's Cordy and Wes, like "but not in a kill your friends way, right?" DB does such a good job.

[Lola m]

Spaced said:

Eetah on this. God, that bit really scares me; in my mind it's the scariest Angel moment, scarier than when he has no soul, because here he knows what's right, but desires it anyway, and we see that that desire is always with him. And then there's Cordy and Wes, like "but not in a kill your friends way, right?" DB does such a good job.

**nods nods nods*

That's why the season 2 "Angel goes dark" arc is scary to me. Because it's not Angelus, it's Angel. So we, and he, don't have that emotional safety net of "well, he lost his soul".

[Queen E]

Lola said:

Another fine bit o' writing, Erin! Can you believe you're almost to the end of the first season? I'm really looking forward to what you have to say about second season's Angel visit to the dark side and then the wonderful Pylea ending arc. So much plotty goodness in season 2.

Indeed! I'm very excited; just rewatched "To Shanshu in LA" last night, and was amazed at all that it sets up; it's almost like the second part of Blind Date.

Vanessa as a tool. Wonderful imagery to compare her to the sidewalk toys we see at her introduction. And it nicely mirrors Lindsey's storyline in this ep as well.

I agree; it's amazing how little "waste" there is in any of the imagery in these little hour long films.

And eetah, eetah, eetah on:

At the scene where Angel is ranting in his office about W&H, and talks about their "no guilt, no torment, no consequences" - and about how he misses that. Well, if that isn't both a clue to season 2 as well as an arrow shot straight towards season 5, I'll eat my hat.

No chapeau eating for you! This is why integration is so hard for Angel; you can't steep yourself in blood and the finer parts of torture for a century and a half and not retain some desire for that time. "I'm deep in" is what Angelus says to Faith in "Orpheus" and he's absolutely right. But...Angel won't accept that he can contain multitudes, that he can harnass both sides and become stronger, because the desire is still so strong, as well as the guilt for having that desire. It's a tangle, alright.

I also noticed the similarities between Holland's speech and that of TFE. Power - how it's used, how it's abused. It's another one of Joss' big themes, isn't it? We see it in all his shows - BtVS, AtS, Firefly. I also agree wholeheartedly with your reading of Lindsey at this point of his life. Holland has got him pegged completely. He wouldn't have actually let Lindsey walk out the door if he didn't know he'd be walking right back in again. He's still doing the "stepping" - or so he thinks.

Yes, and I think Holland really serves as a father figure to Lindsey, a father who is nobody's fool, who has a great deal of power, and who would be the one repossessing the farm, if you will, not the one having what's his taken away. Very few people have the power over a person more than their parents, which is why we'll see on Buffy in Season 7, manifestations of TFE take the form of parents/parent figures so often: Joyce, Wood's mom, the Mayor, culminating in "Father" Caleb. Lindsey still wants that "guiding hand."

No, the real moral crisis that's coming isn't Lindsey's. It's Angel's. Lindsey will be instrumental in bringing Darla back, which will lead to the first crisis in season two, culminating in a roomful of dead lawyers. And we'll see Lindsey again in season five, when this time it's Angel that could be taunted with: "There's always a choice. You sold your soul for a fifth floor office."

Yes! That's why I really felt that the "date" was between Lindsey and Angel; they really mirror one another. As we'll see in season 2, Angel's not the only one with the "brass testes." Lindsey manages to walk away with his life in a place that will shoot you if you move to another law firm. And again and again, even as Angel taunts Lindsey about making excuses and claiming not to have a choice... Angel will admit again and again that he doesn't. Especially when it comes to being a vampire.

This is such a key episode, somewhat masquerading as simply a next-to-last ep / good season ender kind of thing. But it really sets us up the rest of the whole series, doesn't it? Not the least reason being that we are first introduced to the scroll that contains the Shanshu prophesy.

Lola

Brava, Erin!

Indeed it does. I love that it does that; that I can look back and say, "yes, this is where this is set up," or "Oh, I know why he's making that choice now..."

And the Shanshu, that great prophecy we are taunted with just as much as Angel is. Perhaps the point of the Shanshu is that human or vampire, we are all works-in-progress, prophecies or no.

And thank you, Lola. Your thoughts always make me go even deeper into the episodes.

*pets Lola's pretty brain*

[Queen E]

Spaced said:

Eetah on this. God, that bit really scares me; in my mind it's the scariest Angel moment, scarier than when he has no soul, because here he knows what's right, but desires it anyway, and we see that that desire is always with him. And then there's Cordy and Wes, like "but not in a kill your friends way, right?" DB does such a good job.

Absolutely! I think Angel is a scary guy, and I think he's supposed to be. But the artificial divide he puts between Angel and Angelus as time goes on does nothing to alleviate the desire; it almost seems to make it worse...all that evil energy bottled up; when he breaks down, he ends up going to equivalent of China Syndrome.

[Riff]

A superb analysis as usual, Erin.

IMO, this is the episode in which Lindsey truly becomes a real character, rather than mostly a foil for the FG with good one-liners. Like Lilah, there are recognisably human aspects to him, but something is wrong somewhere. People can do terrible things, but usually consider that they’re behaving morally, or they are corrupted by something, or are ignorant. There’s politics and religion and all kinds of other influences. But to knowingly embrace actual evil as people do in the Jossverse is a bizarre choice. Even from the perspective of self-interest it’s stupid, because the choice leads to an eternity in hell. Therefore, characters like Lindsey and Lilah accept an infinitely bad deal – finite gain resulting in infinite suffering. They aren’t really serving their own needs at all.

Although his smiling opposition to good has an element of evil, a character like Lindsey isn’t Sparrow or Doc. Just like Lilah, there are chinks in his armour that show there is some humanity beneath it.

The focus on the toy soldiers is very noticeable. It’s almost as if there’s a sign pointing to them saying, “Subtext!” As always, the puppet/shell theme is there, making itself known.

We can certainly see something very Nietzschean about Holland’s assessment. His is the position of the Will to Power, or might makes right. I’ve read that self-interest is the philosophy of Satanists, and that the most important feast day for a Satanist is his or her own birthday (this is probably an invention of modern Satanism, probably it was made up by that sad chap who seems to believe that basing his look on Emperor Ming is scary, but it is opposed to “good” philosophies such as altruism). This contrasts with Fred, who in Supersymmetry says “It’s not about what’s right”. By this she doesn’t mean, of course, that she is exercising power or is that her will is more important than morality – she simply does what she has to do. Not power, then. Necessity.

Eetah about the foreshadowing of Season 5! I think one of the most interesting questions to ask is why Lindsey “chooses” to take Doyle’s name. The parallel between Lindsey and Faith, which you so astutely identify, may be significant. I believe there is a familiar desire for good in Lindsey. In Blind Date, one can almost imagine him saying, “Because it’s wrong.” But how free is he to actually choose good? That question – player or played? – will haunt both him and Angel.

The indication is that Lindsey draws the line at the murder of children. But does he? At the end of the episode, as Holland offers him the world, only a few moments contemplation make him decide to take the deal. Was this a true moral crisis or a power play?

I suppose the only real way to answer that question would be if Lindsey was faced with the death of children again. I find it difficult to imagine he’d go along with it, but I could be very wrong. The other question is if he freely does make the decision to take the deal.

I loved the idea of the two juries as a metaphor for the difference between Lindsey and Faith. As you point out, Lindsey spectacularly fails to make that decision to change alluded to by Angel. I think that if we also associate this with Holland’s comment on how only some men make their own destinies, it isn’t unreasonable to wonder if Lindsey has also failed in that regard. At the end of the ep, perhaps he is a cowardly wee puppet man and moves with the crowd – his crowd.

I’m still astonished at the depth of your analyses. In this case, the links you found between various instances of seeing (or not seeing) in the episode. Brilliant. It’s always obvious when you point it out (Holmes tells Watson he doesn’t like to reveal his methods for that reason!), and I’m left slapping my forehead.

I can’t wait to learn what you’ve come up with for To Shanshu in LA!

[Queen E]

Riff said:

A superb analysis as usual, Erin.

IMO, this is the episode in which Lindsey truly becomes a real character, rather than mostly a foil for the FG with good one-liners. Like Lilah, there are recognisably human aspects to him, but something is wrong somewhere. People can do terrible things, but usually consider that they’re behaving morally, or they are corrupted by something, or are ignorant. There’s politics and religion and all kinds of other influences. But to knowingly embrace actual evil as people do in the Jossverse is a bizarre choice. Even from the perspective of self-interest it’s stupid, because the choice leads to an eternity in hell. Therefore, characters like Lindsey and Lilah accept an infinitely bad deal – finite gain resulting in infinite suffering. They aren’t really serving their own needs at all.

Yes, after Lee is killed, Lilah and Lindsey really differentiate themselves; funny, too; they're all close in age and all their names started with "L." A recipe for being unnoticed if ever there was one.

Unless they don't really believe that anything comes after...it's rather the dark side of Angel's "If nothing we do matters, then all that matters is what we do." Angel, of course, is talking about selflessness in terms of helping others; Lindsey and Lilah are taking the "whomever has the most toys" approach.

Although his smiling opposition to good has an element of evil, a character like Lindsey isn’t Sparrow or Doc. Just like Lilah, there are chinks in his armour that show there is some humanity beneath it.

Absolutely, which is what makes him so dangerous. Because that "pinch of humanity" just helps him find better justifications for the evil he does. Evil like Doc and Sparrow has a much shorter half-life.

The focus on the toy soldiers is very noticeable. It’s almost as if there’s a sign pointing to them saying, “Subtext!” As always, the puppet/shell theme is there, making itself known.

He does like that theme, doesn't he?

We can certainly see something very Nietzschean about Holland’s assessment. His is the position of the Will to Power, or might makes right. I’ve read that self-interest is the philosophy of Satanists, and that the most important feast day for a Satanist is his or her own birthday (this is probably an invention of modern Satanism, probably it was made up by that sad chap who seems to believe that basing his look on Emperor Ming is scary, but it is opposed to “good” philosophies such as altruism). This contrasts with Fred, who in Supersymmetry says “It’s not about what’s right”. By this she doesn’t mean, of course, that she is exercising power or is that her will is more important than morality – she simply does what she has to do. Not power, then. Necessity.

Hee! It's true! And now that you bring that up, in one of Angel's trips to the Oracles (in "I Will Remember You") he brings a vase from the Ming dynasty. (Not really related, just a fun fact.) You can see too, on both Buffy and Angel, when people start to use the "it's about power" that we're dealing with the big evil. Not that the good people in both shows don't do bad things, but its a facing up and acknowledgement of it that makes them good. Which is why Cordy's "We're beyond notions of good and evil" was such a big honking red flag.

Eetah about the foreshadowing of Season 5! I think one of the most interesting questions to ask is why Lindsey “chooses” to take Doyle’s name. The parallel between Lindsey and Faith, which you so astutely identify, may be significant. I believe there is a familiar desire for good in Lindsey. In Blind Date, one can almost imagine him saying, “Because it’s wrong.” But how free is he to actually choose good? That question – player or played? – will haunt both him and Angel.

Season 5 is one big morally ambiguous checkmark. One wonders whether the actual Doyle would have been back if Glenn Quinn hadn't died, and it fits well with all of the questions Skip introduced in season 4. How much control do you have, are you a pawn, are the PTBs good or self-interested? That turns Doyle into little more than a tool in retrospect, which I have a hard time believing. But...to take that name and remind Angel of that time in his life, well, it's a mixed bag of emotions that would bring to the surface. As for Lindsey, I think he was free to choose; but fear held him back...not fear of W & H, but fear of struggle and privation.

I can't wait to get to season 5!

I suppose the only real way to answer that question would be if Lindsey was faced with the death of children again. I find it difficult to imagine he’d go along with it, but I could be very wrong. The other question is if he freely does make the decision to take the deal.

I think he does; on very first viewing, I faulted Angel a little for not being more supportive, more willing to "save" Lindsey's soul, as he was willing to do for Faith, but Lindsey is an educated, powerful adult; Faith is an uneducated, powerful child (sort of). Although Faith hurt Buffy and Angel and Wes and Cordy and Xander, she wasn't ever really given the space or tools to deal with her power. More importantly, she took responsibility for her actions. Lindsey, on the other hands, has been part of the team that has pitted themselves against Angel and his people for months, he is paid an enormous amount to do so, and he willingly chose it so he would be more powerful and successful. The fact that he STILL makes excuses is why Angel might have low expectations of Lindsey's ability to change.

I loved the idea of the two juries as a metaphor for the difference between Lindsey and Faith. As you point out, Lindsey spectacularly fails to make that decision to change alluded to by Angel. I think that if we also associate this with Holland’s comment on how only some men make their own destinies, it isn’t unreasonable to wonder if Lindsey has also failed in that regard. At the end of the ep, perhaps he is a cowardly wee puppet man and moves with the crowd – his crowd.

Thank you, and hee! There can only be so many roosters in the henhouse (sorry, just watched "Destiny" last night); one wonders if Holland wants his people to be just powerful enough.

I’m still astonished at the depth of your analyses. In this case, the links you found between various instances of seeing (or not seeing) in the episode. Brilliant. It’s always obvious when you point it out (Holmes tells Watson he doesn’t like to reveal his methods for that reason!), and I’m left slapping my forehead.

I can’t wait to learn what you’ve come up with for To Shanshu in LA!

Well, now I'm blushing. I'm amazed at how much "seeing" is a theme in these episodes, especially given the lack of "reflection" Angel has. Maybe he makes up for it by brooding? *grin*

I hope I can live up to your expectations! Thank you for your awesome, in-depth thoughts!

[Lola m]

eg~S'pazlicious said:

Yes, after Lee is killed, Lilah and Lindsey really differentiate themselves; funny, too; they're all close in age and all their names started with "L." A recipe for being unnoticed if ever there was one.

Unless they don't really believe that anything comes after...it's rather the dark side of Angel's "If nothing we do matters, then all that matters is what we do." Angel, of course, is talking about selflessness in terms of helping others; Lindsey and Lilah are taking the "whomever has the most toys" approach.

Ooooh, what a good thought! I never looked at it that way before, but you are very right!

Absolutely, which is what makes him so dangerous. Because that "pinch of humanity" just helps him find better justifications for the evil he does. Evil like Doc and Sparrow has a much shorter half-life.

The grey zone is where Joss really likes to play the most, doesn't he? And it's interesting for a longer time because it's more real. Few people in life, even ones who have done horrible things, are just one-sidedly "bad" - it's what makes the whole thing more tragic.

He does like that theme, doesn't he?

Hee! It's true! And now that you bring that up, in one of Angel's trips to the Oracles (in "I Will Remember You") he brings a vase from the Ming dynasty. (Not really related, just a fun fact.) You can see too, on both Buffy and Angel, when people start to use the "it's about power" that we're dealing with the big evil. Not that the good people in both shows don't do bad things, but its a facing up and acknowledgement of it that makes them good. Which is why Cordy's "We're beyond notions of good and evil" was such a big honking red flag.

**nods, nods, nods**

Season 5 is one big morally ambiguous checkmark. One wonders whether the actual Doyle would have been back if Glenn Quinn hadn't died, and it fits well with all of the questions Skip introduced in season 4. How much control do you have, are you a pawn, are the PTBs good or self-interested? That turns Doyle into little more than a tool in retrospect, which I have a hard time believing. But...to take that name and remind Angel of that time in his life, well, it's a mixed bag of emotions that would bring to the surface. As for Lindsey, I think he was free to choose; but fear held him back...not fear of W & H, but fear of struggle and privation.

IMHO, the return of the name and idea of Doyle is one of the things that help Angel fight his way out of the W&H trap. (Presuming you think that he did do that, or at least try). Eetah on Lindsey's motivation.

I can't wait to get to season 5!

I think he does; on very first viewing, I faulted Angel a little for not being more supportive, more willing to "save" Lindsey's soul, as he was willing to do for Faith, but Lindsey is an educated, powerful adult; Faith is an uneducated, powerful child (sort of). Although Faith hurt Buffy and Angel and Wes and Cordy and Xander, she wasn't ever really given the space or tools to deal with her power. More importantly, she took responsibility for her actions. Lindsey, on the other hands, has been part of the team that has pitted themselves against Angel and his people for months, he is paid an enormous amount to do so, and he willingly chose it so he would be more powerful and successful. The fact that he STILL makes excuses is why Angel might have low expectations of Lindsey's ability to change

Thank you, and hee! There can only be so many roosters in the henhouse (sorry, just watched "Destiny" last night); one wonders if Holland wants his people to be just powerful enough.

Oh, I think that sums up Holland perfectly. Lilah or Lindsey don't advance because they are the best, they do so because they are just best enough. Better at what they do than the flunkies below them, but not really gonna threaten the highest levels. Not that W&H would ever put it that way to them. Just like the folks above Holland would never say the same to him. 'Course, they all find that out when they die.

Well, now I'm blushing. I'm amazed at how much "seeing" is a theme in these episodes, especially given the lack of "reflection" Angel has. Maybe he makes up for it by brooding? *grin*

I hope I can live up to your expectations! Thank you for your awesome, in-depth thoughts!

Like these back and forth discussions! Even when all I contribute are "eetah" and "well done".

Lola

[Queen E]

Lola said:

Ooooh, what a good thought! I never looked at it that way before, but you are very right!

Thank you! It strikes me more and more the fine line between Angel and the Wolfram and Hart-ers...how easy it would be for him to slide in nihilism, which is W & H main philosophy, in my opinion.

The grey zone is where Joss really likes to play the most, doesn't he? And it's interesting for a longer time because it's more real. Few people in life, even ones who have done horrible things, are just one-sidedly "bad" - it's what makes the whole thing more tragic.

Absolutely. And no one is just one-sidedly good either; it's amazing how easily both sides slip back and forth...especially Lindsey and Angel. Which is why they are really "twins" of one another in a lot of ways.

IMHO, the return of the name and idea of Doyle is one of the things that help Angel fight his way out of the W&H trap. (Presuming you think that he did do that, or at least try). Eetah on Lindsey's motivation.

Indeed; and to have Cordelia "return" on the heels of the kind of invocation of that name further underscores his need to escape. I think he did do that, and I'm actually OK living in the ambiguity of the end of Season 5 (at least 'til Season 6 starts). Whether they win or lose that fight in the alley, they are fighting the good fight again, they are taking action. I think one of the main subthemes of season 5 is the value (at times) of action over words, but that's for another analysis.

Thanks; fear of poverty is a big one, especially in an environment in which being poor is considered a moral failing.

Oh, I think that sums up Holland perfectly. Lilah or Lindsey don't advance because they are the best, they do so because they are just best enough. Better at what they do than the flunkies below them, but not really gonna threaten the highest levels. Not that W&H would ever put it that way to them. Just like the folks above Holland would never say the same to him. 'Course, they all find that out when they die.

Exactly! And we see that it's their inability to see the big picture in Seasons 1 and 2 that allow them to be used. Holland does see a bigger picture, and does what he needs to do to bring it about, even betrayal.

Like these back and forth discussions! Even when all I contribute are "eetah" and "well done".

Lola

Oh, you do so much more than that! You're all smart and come up with things I hadn't even thought of!

And I love these discussions too; it's fun! (I may need to get out more, though...*grin*)

[Karen]

Oh, what a great discussion everyone, sparked by an excellent review! Kudos, Erin!

I know I've said this before, but your reviews add so much to my enjoyment of past Angel episodes. I only wish we had all been together to enjoy them from the beginning.

I love how you have compared Lindsey and Angel's personal struggles with their place in the scheme of things. Angel as good - always struggling with his dark side. Lindsey as evil - but with that touch of humanity (or maybe I just think that because he has such a sweet face).

After reading your review and the following discussion, I've come to the conclusion that Angel (and Lindsey) aren't necessarily pawns of forces outside of their control, but they are most certainly being played.

I think Holland manipulated Lindsey into making the eventual choice that he did by setting up a scenario where children were in danger. Of course, we don't know all the details of Lindsey's past, but we do know that Holland does - and the fact that Lindsey grew up with quite a few brothers and sisters makes me think that he'd be hesitant to see children being hurt. (Also, later he was very tender with a vulnerable, and childlike Darla.) But that's just a guess on my part.

Lindsey eventually made the choice to stay with Holland when Holland offers him a reward for his disloyalty - and now he feels he has a real place at W&H - and whether he acknowledges it or not, he's got to feel beholden to Holland for that.

As far as Angel goes, I do think that the 'something' that drew him to take the scroll was the PTB. Angel needed to believe that he fit into a 'design' and Wesley believes in a design. The Shanshu is a nice carrot. All a perfect fit. Of course, it could've just been a coincidence that he was drawn to the scroll, too.

Both Angel and Lindsey, altho manipulated, ultimately made choices of their own free will. So, no - not pawns, not robots, but imperfect beings struggling to 'see' (I loved your bit of insight about seeing), and surrounded by others who want to use them for their own agendas.

And silly me. I never would have thought of Lindsey and Angel as the 'Blind Date'. But it fits very well!

Oh, one more thing. Do you think Lindsey got the idea from Vanessa's tapes to gain power we saw in him in S5f from the monks? That's a nice bit of detail that makes me wonder if Joss didn't have that on his mind all along - setting Angel and Lindsey up for a showdown for power and control of W&H.

The only bad thing about revisiting the Angel episodes is that I start feeling angry about the stories that aren't being told yet.


And I'd love to discuss every insightful point that you made - but I need to get supper started.

[Queen E]

Karen said:

Oh, what a great discussion everyone, sparked by an excellent review! Kudos, Erin!

I know I've said this before, but your reviews add so much to my enjoyment of past Angel episodes. I only wish we had all been together to enjoy them from the beginning.

Funny how long ago that was now...

I love how you have compared Lindsey and Angel's personal struggles with their place in the scheme of things. Angel as good - always struggling with his dark side. Lindsey as evil - but with that touch of humanity (or maybe I just think that because he has such a sweet face).

Indeed; and that also fits in well with the description of Angelus as the demon with the face of an Angel. Lindsey and Angel are so similar in their struggles, it's practically guaranteed that they'll never get along.

After reading your review and the following discussion, I've come to the conclusion that Angel (and Lindsey) aren't necessarily pawns of forces outside of their control, but they are most certainly being played.

I think Holland manipulated Lindsey into making the eventual choice that he did by setting up a scenario where children were in danger. Of course, we don't know all the details of Lindsey's past, but we do know that Holland does - and the fact that Lindsey grew up with quite a few brothers and sisters makes me think that he'd be hesitant to see children being hurt. (Also, later he was very tender with a vulnerable, and childlike Darla.) But that's just a guess on my part.

Absolutely! And lost 3 of his siblings to common illnesses, which really underlines how poor his family was. I think it's entirely plausible that Holland's real test was not Lindsey's loyalty to the firm, but, as Lindsey so put it in "Not Fade Away," to see if Lindsey had the brass ones to take risks and be strong. It's rather like the sacrament of confirmation in the Catholic church; you're baptised as a child, but later you undergo the sacrament of confirmation, underlining your commitment to the church. Perhaps this was Lindsey's conformation.

Lindsey eventually made the choice to stay with Holland when Holland offers him a reward for his disloyalty - and now he feels he has a real place at W&H - and whether he acknowledges it or not, he's got to feel beholden to Holland for that.

Oh yeah he does! That's the other part of it...he's a devious one, that Holland.

As far as Angel goes, I do think that the 'something' that drew him to take the scroll was the PTB. Angel needed to believe that he fit into a 'design' and Wesley believes in a design. The Shanshu is a nice carrot. All a perfect fit. Of course, it could've just been a coincidence that he was drawn to the scroll, too.

Both Angel and Lindsey, altho manipulated, ultimately made choices of their own free will. So, no - not pawns, not robots, but imperfect beings struggling to 'see' (I loved your bit of insight about seeing), and surrounded by others who want to use them for their own agendas.

Yes, and that's going to be hugely important. As Skip said, "Not a dupe." It's interesting, too, that Angel taking that scroll might have been what alerted the SP to do a sweep. Angel could have been in and out with little notice if he hadn't taken the scroll, not to mention risking Lindsey's life too. I think both realize they're being manipulated, and both go back and forth in terms of taking responsibility for the amount they allowed themselves to be manipulated by these forces. Angel gives into it wholly in Season 2; whereas we see Lindsey starting to fight against it.

And silly me. I never would have thought of Lindsey and Angel as the 'Blind Date'. But it fits very well!

Oh, one more thing. Do you think Lindsey got the idea from Vanessa's tapes to gain power we saw in him in S5f from the monks? That's a nice bit of detail that makes me wonder if Joss didn't have that on his mind all along - setting Angel and Lindsey up for a showdown for power and control of W&H.

The only bad thing about revisiting the Angel episodes is that I start feeling angry about the stories that aren't being told yet.


And I'd love to discuss every insightful point that you made - but I need to get supper started.

Supper is very important! Sorry it took me so long to respond; my connection this weekend was hit or miss.

As to your other question, I wouldn't be surprised at all if Lindsey used some or most of the knowledge he gained with W & H to implement his plan in Season 5. Lindsey struck me as working for no one as much as he worked for Lindsey...which might be why Angel had him killed. Although hello to the creepy parallel with how W & H, in the Holland Manners era, terminated their employees based on what was read in their mind. *shudder*

Thank you for commenting; your thoughts were shiny and made me spawn new thoughts!

[Lola m]

Did anyone else think that Holland's smile, when he was packing up his things to "move up a few floors", as it were, had an almost truly happy glee to it?

I mean, Holland always has that little polite smile. The one that never goes anywhere near his eyes. But as he's getting ready to move, he's all glowy and more, I don't know, sincerely excited? I'm somehow comparing this to the way Lindsey and Lilah react when they are promoted and also to that idea we talked about earlier - that of being "good enough" to promote, but not too much, not to risk shaking up the hierarchy. Each level above gives an imperfect picture of what is really going on to the level below it.

So I guess in the same episode in which we see Holland manipulating Lindsey, we also get a little hint of Holland being manipulated by the ones who hold his strings?

[Queen E]

Lola said:

Did anyone else think that Holland's smile, when he was packing up his things to "move up a few floors", as it were, had an almost truly happy glee to it?

I mean, Holland always has that little polite smile. The one that never goes anywhere near his eyes. But as he's getting ready to move, he's all glowy and more, I don't know, sincerely excited? I'm somehow comparing this to the way Lindsey and Lilah react when they are promoted and also to that idea we talked about earlier - that of being "good enough" to promote, but not too much, not to risk shaking up the hierarchy. Each level above gives an imperfect picture of what is really going on to the level below it.

So I guess in the same episode in which we see Holland manipulating Lindsey, we also get a little hint of Holland being manipulated by the ones who hold his strings?

Yeah, that whole "I'm going upstairs" is more than a little creepy. Maybe he's off to visit the White Room?

I guess nobody's really free, nobody's a "real boy" at Wolfram and Hart, are they?