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Post by Queen E on Sept 1, 2005 10:40:34 GMT -5
Post like the wind...
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Post by Lola m on Sept 11, 2005 12:03:49 GMT -5
Another excellent analysis, Erin! After this was up on the site, I re-watched thr ep - as I hadn't seen it in a while and found myself noticing all sorts of things I hadn't noticed before. Love how you compared Lilah and Angel and their way of telling the truth "sideways". Not only did I flash-back to Anya and her "I told the truth all the time when I was evil", but it made me see how this is one more foreshadow of the path that Angel will take this season. As you point out when you talk about Angel has not yet confided about his dreams, and now memories, of Darla and how they make him feel. Perfect summary for the larger arc of this ep and the deeper layers of meaning for its title. And contrasting this with the sometimes harsh but usually accurate honesty of Cordelia was excellent. "Cut to the chase", indeed.  Loved the little moment when Angel's attempt to play the "pity me 'cuz I've been pierced by a piece of rebar" doesn't quite work on Cordy. ;D Lilah is very effectively scary in this ep, also making for a nice comparison and parallel for Angel. Threatening to bury a subordinate next to her house to be able to listen to their screams and her chilling "pull the trigger".  You really get at the heart of the matter when you talk about how cutting through the secrets and dealing with what is there is the key to moving on and changing behavior. As long as Bethany and Angel disassociate themselves from past events (Bethany as victim who feels as though she wasn't there, Angel as perpetrator who speaks as if he only watched) they can never move forward into a different future. Your point about how much evil "still turns him on" is really made clear when you point out that this Darla dream is not a "new" scenario - not just erotic and centered around the two of them. This dream is about blood and killing and having that be a part of the eroticism. Other little things that struck me about this ep: * Angel's stab wound goes through his tattoo in the back - connecting Bethany's violence with his own past? * Holland Manners is just so creepy. As he manipulates and subtly threatens Lilah and then seems to be doing some odd kind of "I believe in you!" pep talk, I had an odd flashback to the Mayor and Faith. Except Holland is way more icky - and that's saying something when you realize you're comparing him unfavorably to a giant people-eating snake demon. * Interesting how quickly Wes puts the clues together and figures out that Bethany was abused by her dad. * Lindsey sees the big picture. Woah. Way more prescient a comment than I thought when first watching. * I still remember watching this ep the first time it aired and we had that moment when Bethany opens the door to see her dad and then, boom the windows all blow out and we go to commercial. Very . . eeep! Brava on another wonderful analysis, Erin!! You pulled it all together and really got at the underlying meaning of the whole thing. |
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Post by Queen E on Sept 15, 2005 12:09:45 GMT -5
Another excellent analysis, Erin! After this was up on the site, I re-watched thr ep - as I hadn't seen it in a while and found myself noticing all sorts of things I hadn't noticed before. Ah, my faithful Lola; I love your cogent analyses and am so sorry it took so long to respond. Yes, and the only difference, really, is not reaching for the power or advantage, but what you do with it. Bethany calling Angel "old-fashioned" is not just a remark on his speech or manners, but his attitudes toward women need just a bit of updating; he still has that "save the damsel" quality that really gets him in trouble. His quest to save Darla's life is, if Jasmine is to be believed, literally creates Connor. Cordy just kicks ass in this episode, I agree. Season 2 is a great arc for her... Indeed. Imagine how scary Lilah would be as a vamp. Doesn't the above sound like something Angelus would have done? I do wish we knew more of her backstory...but it's amazing how compartmentalized she really is... Yes, and there are all sorts of squinky things I couldn't bring myself to get into in this episode...especially pondering the implications of Darla as Angelus' "mother" and Bethany's abuse by her father. Or the fact that both Bethany and Angel have a "trigger" that leads to violence and bloodshed. Or Bethany's talk of the power, which sounds very similar to the physiologic reactions to orgasm. And absolutely. We'll see that over and over again in both the Angelverse and the Buffyverse; if you repress these painful things, they'll just come around again and bite you in the ass. Ooh, I didn't notice that! I was too busy giggling at Cordy's "man boobies" remark. 'Cause I'm 12. Another excellent observation. Definite "bad daddy" vibe from Holland as well; which fits in so nicely with this ep. Wes would; he's got a lot of experience in that area... And more prescient that Holland could have ever guessed! Love that moment too! And thank you! (It sure took me long enough!) Thank you so much for your most intelligent commenting; it means so much to me!  |
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Post by Lola m on Sept 15, 2005 12:52:57 GMT -5
Another excellent analysis, Erin! After this was up on the site, I re-watched thr ep - as I hadn't seen it in a while and found myself noticing all sorts of things I hadn't noticed before. Ah, my faithful Lola; I love your cogent analyses and am so sorry it took so long to respond. And pshaw on the time thing! I still haven't gotten to Havoc's other two reviews and I'm certainly not keeping up on the main board! RL lunacy as usual.  Huh - nice connection thought! All the eps in season two are really leading up to that Angel / Darla moment and its concequences, aren't they? Lilah as a vamp is . . . well, very scary to contemplate. Compartmentalization sounds a little too Angelus-y for safety! I find it very interesting that Lindsey is not able to be the really really big bad until after Lilah is dead. Well. As dead as a W&H employee is allowed to become, as it were. Any time you start looking at our various vamp's family tree it gets awfully squinky. All sorts of links here, aren't there? The "trigger" in each case being somehow linked with sex; the "bad daddy" or "bad mommy" parallels of Holland (as you mentioned) or Angelus (with Dru later) or Darla; Cordy and Wes being able to see the sexual vibes or connections but Angel being more blind to them (Angel responding to the threat of Angelus by, as you note below, repressing). ;D Well, actually, we see it in the scene after when he goes up to bed. Not that I obsessively re-watch or slo-mo the half clothed bed scenes of any of the characters. Nope, not me. **nods** Just what I was thinking. Poor woobie Wes.  ;D |
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Post by Queen E on Sept 22, 2005 16:41:02 GMT -5
And pshaw on the time thing! I still haven't gotten to Havoc's other two reviews and I'm certainly not keeping up on the main board! RL lunacy as usual. Yes, what is the deal with September? August dragged like a draggy thing that drags...and September is all "eat my wake, suckers!" Thank you. #blush# And really, that's what the rest of the show is going to be about...it's all ripples from that one concusive moment... Hee! Yes, it's almost as if evil is parceled out in a particular way...note the opposite; that Lilah's game was much more tight with Lindsey gone..so in fact the SPs were wrong; the competitiveness between the two did neither any good in terms of advancing in the evil department. *grin* Having their particular brand of evil in one person only perhaps makes it more concentrated, stronger? I could be way off base here...just rambling. And we're right back to compartmentalization. What you do to survive... And I'll back you up on that, even if they question us separately. |
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Post by Riff on Nov 23, 2005 4:31:49 GMT -5
Yes, that does seem to be the crux of the episode. It highlights the old ethical question about whether one should be judged on the intentions behind one's actions or the consequences that spring from them. In the former case, Lilah and Angel are obviously distinct, while in the latter they are less easy to differentiate. Moral ambiguity on AtS? Who'd have thought it? Of course I agree that the split between Angel and Angelus (which is so different to Spike and ensouled-Spike) is actually a personality issue. As you say, he is in such a state of denial that his personality has divided into separate beings. He remembers the events of the past, and understands intellectually his responsibility, but he can't fully face it. So, when he misleads Bethany he also misleads himself to a lesser extent. As we saw from the Pylea episodes, it is incorrect to think of Angelus as simply the demon component of Angel's vampire self. I would argue the main difference is that Angel incorporates Angelus – he is a dual being. Angelus, on the other hand, is his own man (during those times he is liberated). *laughs* He outs her, as it were. All true, and Sigmund should really be on hand here to call a spade a penis. Fangs and stakes are so... penetrative. I'd really better not speculate on the symbolic significance of blood. ;D One of the themes we saw in BtVS and even more so in AtS is essentially good people tormented by deviant sexuality in one way or another. It's rather like the hilarious old idea of holy men tempted in their dreams by Lilith and her succubi: we sense that this is something the characters are subjected to for one reason or another – an outside evil that has got inside. The, ahem, hilarious cockney cheeky chappies Chas and Dave have something to say on that one: “Because you can’t stop talking! Why don’t you give it a rest? You’ve got more rabbit than Sainsbury’s It's time you got it off your chest. Now you was just the girl to break my heart in two I knew right off when I first set my eyes on you But how was I to know you’d break my ear holes, too? With your incessant talking! You’re becoming a pest Rabbit, rabbit, rabbit, rabbit, rabbit, rabbit, rabbit Rabbit rabbit yack yack Rabbit rabbit yack yack Yack yack rabbit rabbit rabbit!” ;D How did you know that one? Words like “baby” and “girl” can be harmless terms of endearment, or just unthinking forms of address, but I think you may be right that the language here is deliberately infantilising . Like Carrie, on whom she is obviously based, Bethany is largely portrayed as an all-powerful victim, somehow still vulnerable (though the episode stops short of the all-too-understandable reaction that a once-oppressed person might have when given such power [like Willow]). We’ll wait until you get to “Super Symmetry” before I really wax lyrical on the language side. *nods* That was nice. And you draw attention to the overriding theme or question of AtS: are our actions autonomous or determined? Hmmm. I’ve just realised that’s also the overriding theme of Forrest Gump. But as Lynn Truss says, the only time you don’t know what’s in a box of chocolates is when you can’t be bothered to read the inside of the lid… |
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Post by Queen E on Dec 4, 2005 3:16:36 GMT -5
Yes, that does seem to be the crux of the episode. It highlights the old ethical question about whether one should be judged on the intentions behind one's actions or the consequences that spring from them. In the former case, Lilah and Angel are obviously distinct, while in the latter they are less easy to differentiate. Moral ambiguity on AtS? Who'd have thought it? I am all astonishment myself. There is something about the road to hell going on throughout AtS; Angel's intentions are almost always good. The consequences of his choices end up being ambiguous at best. The only thing we really do know is that redemption is not just about your actions but also about your choices. Which Cordelia makes very clear in her talk with Bethany, when she tells her "somewhere in there a choice got made." So prescient in light of the rest of the season. He definitely incorporates him to an extent; he can't not. He feels "tied" to him in terms of feeling responsible for his actions. Angelus, however, goes out of his way to "purge" himself of any and all attachments that Angel has made, from the time when he was Liam. Yet when we see Angelus again in Season 4, he is much more restrained than the last time we saw him for any length of time...is that a sign of incorporating Angel to a greater extent? Not guilt but a kind of restraining hand? Heh. That's where I was going with that...yeah. Subtext becoming text... Ah, Freud...excellent for literary situations, not so much for real life human interaction. To me, it seems less that they are tormented but deviant sexuality, but more that they are tormented by their own desires...which they label as deviant. One could make the argument that the American culture's dichotomy of purient/puritanical views of sex codes desire or enjoyment of sex as something "dirty." This would be especially true for an Old World Irish Catholic boy like Liam. The "holy man" analogy is his case is particularly apt. Hee! I don't know it in the sense of having ever heard it before, but amazing what google can learn ya. I'm glad they didn't go that route with Bethany...it provided an alternate choice to simply being ruled by power, as Willow was. I think the difference between Bethany and Willow is that, while both of them wanted to escape who they were in the past, Bethany needed "less" attention (at the very least) from her father, whereas Willow got little or no attention from either parent. As for Angel, he feels ruled by his own power...and we see where that leads him. Bethany is no longer defining herself by her victimization at the end of the episode; Angel never quite gets to the point where he doesn't consider himself as a victim. I think I might have lost my point somewhere in there. Hee! Excellent; I do like Lynn Truss a great deal. And I do think AtS does a much deeper and enjoyable exploration of that theme than Forrest Gump managed to accomplish. Glad you like that observation; if you rewatch the episode "Reunion" you can see the Powers making a last ditch effort to turn Angel away from Holland Manner's "tasting" by sending Cordy a vision...which is the most compelling evidence of the series that Jasmine's assertion that everything in the Fang Gang's life was managed to bring her forth was completely without merit. Had Angel stayed away from that basement, he would not been complicit in it, hence no guilt, hence no alienation from Wes, Cordy, and Gunn, hence no sleeping with Darla and no Connor. In the episode "Dear Boy" that I'm nearly done analyzing, there's even more evidence that supports this assertion. Thank you thank you for your comments! Intellectual discussion about Angel always makes me happy! |
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Post by Erins Secret Santa on Dec 8, 2006 23:52:20 GMT -5
I have to admit, this is one of my favorite episodes of Angel. I found Bethany's story fascinating for many reasons, most of which you highlight in your review. What could have easily been a by-the-numbers weepfest about how the poor abused girl running from her past finally finds her inner strength (cue violin section) is made infinitely more interesting when retold through the Jossverse prism.
I love the parallels you draw between Angel and Bethany, in particular how they cast themselves as passive observers of the horrible things their darker selves have done. Of course, in the case of Bethany and her sexual encounters such a disassociation is unsurprising. In fact, it was most likely a vital part of her ability to survive the horrors perpetrated on her by her father. However, as you rightly point out there comes a time when the best, and maybe only, way to deal with the darkness in your past is to face and accept it, instead of continuing to hide from what it represents. It is indeed a shame that Angel remains "untouched" by this message, and by seeing for himself what it can mean to one's sense of control and well-being to confront one's demons rather than deny them.
I also enjoyed your compare and contrast between Wesley and Cordelia as truth tellers vs. Angel and Lilah's tendency to say things that are technically true but at heart are evasions. It wasn't something I noticed before, but seems so obvious now that you point it out. Their straightforwardness and their refusal to let Bethany or Angel get away with pretending events are happening to them (like the terrific scene you note in which Cordelia speaks of a choice being made) really do help highlight how guarded and oblique Lilah and Angel tend to be in their dealings with others.
Oh, and I'd be very remiss if I didn't express my love for the allusions and subtle bits of humor your sprinkle throughout your work, from the pitch-perfect reference to Bluebeard's wife to your play on words in mentioning Angel's nocturnal commissions. Not to mention the aside about rumpled sheets, which made me laugh out loud.
Finally, there's one aspect of the episode I'd love to hear your thoughts about: the fact that this was the one and only time Joss Whedon directed an episode of any of his shows where he wasn't also the credited writer. The story is obviously right up his alley: the young girl whose childhood is taken away by forces beyond her control, leaving her with a power she doesn't want and an ongoing internal struggle as she attempts to come to terms with the person she's become. But still, it remains an interesting anomaly in his directorial work, and I'm curious as to your take on it.
All in all, an outstanding example of the all the goodness, intelligence, and insight we've come to expect from your Angelphile reviews. So consider me a proud Erinphile who continues to look forward to reading each new installment.
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Post by Queen E on Dec 13, 2006 9:27:46 GMT -5
Santa, you rock! Sorry it's taken me so long to respond; my brain hasn't been up to full capacity lately! I have to admit, this is one of my favorite episodes of Angel. I found Bethany's story fascinating for many reasons, most of which you highlight in your review. What could have easily been a by-the-numbers weepfest about how the poor abused girl running from her past finally finds her inner strength (cue violin section) is made infinitely more interesting when retold through the Jossverse prism. Isn't that jus the way? Everything is more interesting through that particular prism. Word. The thing is, it seems as if he's at least halfway there; he understands enough about himself and his darkness to both be aware and comment on it. That in and of itself is progress. Yet, the narrow focus that is the legacy of Angelus keeps him from broadening what he's learned into a bigger picture. That's where W & H can really slip in: threaten Darla, threaten Cordy, threaten Connor, and Angel will drop eveything else and lasar beam onto them. For all his supposed enigmaticness, he really isn't that hard to figure out and manipulate. As we find out for certain in Season 3, they have access to his entire history; they know that Darla and Angelus spent 150 years together as well as know that Angel killed Darla. It's not a huge intuitive leap to figure out that resurrecting her would spin him pretty badly, and that Darla, and his troubled past, would throw him right off the mission. Indeed; and thank you! Why Lilah does it is very obvious. Angel, too, knows what happens if someone with trust issues finds out about his vampire status...that's how he lost Tina. Bethany has the added incentive of being able to rebar him if she feels he's violated that trust. Cordy and Wes do have the luxury, here, of being outside the game, and more able to see the situation clearly. Wes' manuever, in particular, reminds me of "I've Got You Under My Skin," where he cuts off Angel's argument against Wes performing the exorcism by throwing a cross at him. Crude but effective; it also really nicely shows Wes' development. Hee! Glad you liked that. Just be glad I didn't make any other kind of "closet" joke. Huh. That is an interesting question, and one I really hadn't pondered until you brought it up. There are probably practical reasons; he would have been writing/directing "Family" around the same time on Buffy. I'm fuzzy on the protocal on TV shows; I imagine they break the stories and divvy up writing and directing responsibilities in a particular way. What I think, in particular, is that Joss wouldn't have had time to write this one, but was able to bring his particular perspective on this subject by directing it. Does that make sense?  *runs and hides from too much praise* Seriously, that means a lot. I know the shows been off the air for awhile, and it seems kind of insane to analyze is at this point, but I just find the episodes to be so rich visually and textually that I can't help myself. Thank you so much! Best Secret Santa present ever! #bighug# |
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Loved the little moment when Angel's attempt to play the "pity me 'cuz I've been pierced by a piece of rebar" doesn't quite work on Cordy. ;D
