|
Post by Nickim on Oct 16, 2004 10:19:00 GMT -5
Great analysis, as always, Spring. You said "we're made to love." That is so true. Our brains are "hard wired" (like a robot) to love and be loved. Babies who aren't given affection don't thrive. Children who aren't loved don't learn who to love. I love the reference to Corinthians. That's one of my favorite passages. The Greek word for love in that passage is agape. It refers to the type unselfish love where Jesus said we should "love our enemies." If we have that type of love for our partner, in addition to erotic, romantic love--Greek eros , we would never do anything to hurt that person. We will always put their interests first, and if they do the same, we'll both be happy. Now to bring that comment to the topic. ;D Warren definitely did not have agape feelings toward April or Katrina, as we see later. His feelings were totally selfish, how could the "women" make HIM happy, never how he could make THEM happy. Spike, too, had only selfish feelings for Buffy at this point. He wasn't capable of anything better. As Tara said about Quaismodo, 'Everything he did was out of selfishness.' (I'm not claiming to be quoting exactly) It isn't easy to delevop agape feelings. Unfortunately, it's much more natural to be selfish. That's what makes Spike's ultimate sacrifice all the more noble and amazing. He really learned to be unselfish. Warren never did.
|
|
|
Post by Anne, Old S'cubie Cat on Oct 16, 2004 12:53:34 GMT -5
Spring, I read all of your reviews, and enjoy them, even when I don't get around to commenting. This was a great one. As a non-Christian, I don't know the Bible the way you do, and I appreciate your insights. I found the connections you made fascinating and illuminating.
|
|
|
Post by SpringSummers on Oct 16, 2004 19:09:08 GMT -5
Great analysis, as always, Spring. You said "we're made to love." That is so true. Our brains are "hard wired" (like a robot) to love and be loved. Babies who aren't given affection don't thrive. Children who aren't loved don't learn who to love. I love the reference to Corinthians. That's one of my favorite passages. The Greek word for love in that passage is agape. It refers to the type unselfish love where Jesus said we should "love our enemies." If we have that type of love for our partner, in addition to erotic, romantic love--Greek eros , we would never do anything to hurt that person. We will always put their interests first, and if they do the same, we'll both be happy. Now to bring that comment to the topic. ;D Warren definitely did not have agape feelings toward April or Katrina, as we see later. His feelings were totally selfish, how could the "women" make HIM happy, never how he could make THEM happy. Spike, too, had only selfish feelings for Buffy at this point. He wasn't capable of anything better. As Tara said about Quaismodo, 'Everything he did was out of selfishness.' (I'm not claiming to be quoting exactly) It isn't easy to delevop agape feelings. Unfortunately, it's much more natural to be selfish. That's what makes Spike's ultimate sacrifice all the more noble and amazing. He really learned to be unselfish. Warren never did. Yes - I agree that Warren was loving "selfishly" - though I would add it is pretty typical at that age. As you said, it takes time to learn to develop "agape" feelings. Spike did - amazingly - get there, in the end. And that's what made his story so very compelling. I'm probably alone in this in Buffy fandom, but I felt sorta sorry for Warren. Not that he wasn't a total creep by the time we get to Dead Things, he was a total creep - with his grotesque plan to use/rape Katrina. And though he did not mean to kill either Katrina or Tara, he did intend to kill Buffy - so he progresses from insensitive jerk, to (intended) rapist, to murderer. Still - Willow was very, very wrong to kill him as she did. Again, I am probably alone in Buffy fandom, but being the mom of a son about Warren's age, all I could think about was his mom, and how young he was. I am way off track here - I am looking forward to getting to Season 6, though, and taking a close look at the Nerdy Trio.
|
|
|
Post by SpringSummers on Oct 16, 2004 19:15:54 GMT -5
Spring, I read all of your reviews, and enjoy them, even when I don't get around to commenting. This was a great one. As a non-Christian, I don't know the Bible the way you do, and I appreciate your insights. I found the connections you made fascinating and illuminating. Thanks, Anne. So glad you joined the commentary. My choice of the Bible quote wasn't a . . . religious choice, if you know what I mean. I mean - it wasn't about displaying or preaching Christianity. I even thought twice about including it, because my analyses are meant to be . . . totally secular, I guess you could say. But then I thought - it's just a beautiful quote about love, one of the best out there, and it was what came to mind. It expresses a sentiment shared across all types of religious lines. So it is good to read that it, and the analysis, was appreciated for itself.
|
|
|
Post by LadyDi on Oct 22, 2004 16:10:32 GMT -5
Yes - I agree that Warren was loving "selfishly" - though I would add it is pretty typical at that age. As you said, it takes time to learn to develop "agape" feelings. Spike did - amazingly - get there, in the end. And that's what made his story so very compelling. I'm probably alone in this in Buffy fandom, but I felt sorta sorry for Warren. Not that he wasn't a total creep by the time we get to Dead Things, he was a total creep - with his grotesque plan to use/rape Katrina. And though he did not mean to kill either Katrina or Tara, he did intend to kill Buffy - so he progresses from insensitive jerk, to (intended) rapist, to murderer. Still - Willow was very, very wrong to kill him as she did. Again, I am probably alone in Buffy fandom, but being the mom of a son about Warren's age, all I could think about was his mom, and how young he was. I am way off track here - I am looking forward to getting to Season 6, though, and taking a close look at the Nerdy Trio. I don't know that you're completely alone here. I'm not a big fan of Warren either (Jonathon was my favorite Nerd), but ITA it was very wrong of Willow to kill him. Spike did - amazingly - get there, in the end. And that's what made his story so very compelling.
Amen.
|
|
|
Post by Lola m on Oct 25, 2004 22:00:22 GMT -5
Late to the party, but very excellent analysis, Spring! (I will confess I have been dragging my feet slower and slower on reading your Spikecentricities the closer we get to "The Body" because I always cry so much when I watch it.) Really like how you show that seeing and hearing April's story is what allows Buffy to look back at her own actions and ways of thinking. Between this eye opener and the excellent advice given by Xander at both the start and the end of the ep, Buffy actually comes to a much better understanding of herself. I also really feel somewhat sorry for, and almost kind of liked, Warren in this ep - actually this is true for both Warren and April - tho' for different reasons. When he says: “I really thought I would be? [in love with her] I mean, she’s perfect. I don’t know, I guess it was too easy. And predictable." And then goes on to talk about meeting Katrina and how it's her "not perfect-ness" that is the thing that attracts him. It's just so . . . true. I also loved how you move us toward the episode that will follow. Also, like Spaced Out Looney, I liked the way you take us through the crisscrossing lines of relationships. As you say, it's definitely getting murky with Buffy and Spike. And it's just gonna get more confusing as we head into season 6! Once again, thanks for all the thoughts you stir up in me, Spring! Lola
|
|
|
Post by SpringSummers on Oct 26, 2004 7:43:38 GMT -5
Late to the party, but very excellent analysis, Spring! (I will confess I have been dragging my feet slower and slower on reading your Spikecentricities the closer we get to "The Body" because I always cry so much when I watch it.) Really like how you show that seeing and hearing April's story is what allows Buffy to look back at her own actions and ways of thinking. Between this eye opener and the excellent advice given by Xander at both the start and the end of the ep, Buffy actually comes to a much better understanding of herself. I also really feel somewhat sorry for, and almost kind of liked, Warren in this ep - actually this is true for both Warren and April - tho' for different reasons. When he says: “I really thought I would be? [in love with her] I mean, she’s perfect. I don’t know, I guess it was too easy. And predictable." And then goes on to talk about meeting Katrina and how it's her "not perfect-ness" that is the thing that attracts him. It's just so . . . true. I also loved how you move us toward the episode that will follow. Also, like Spaced Out Looney, I liked the way you take us through the crisscrossing lines of relationships. As you say, it's definitely getting murky with Buffy and Spike. And it's just gonna get more confusing as we head into season 6! Once again, thanks for all the thoughts you stir up in me, Spring! Lola Thanks, Lola. Your input is much appreciated. I know what you mean about The Body. But it's too important to leave out - tempted as I was to do so. I am behind on the Forever analysis due to several weekends in a row with lots of busy work, but I did start it. I am anxious to get through to the end of Season 5! If only Mr Bloody would pay me the 6-figure salary I keep asking for, I would quit my job and get all these done in no time.
|
|
|
Post by Spaced Out Looney on Jan 26, 2005 19:42:41 GMT -5
I'm probably alone in this in Buffy fandom, but I felt sorta sorry for Warren. Not that he wasn't a total creep by the time we get to Dead Things, he was a total creep - with his grotesque plan to use/rape Katrina. And though he did not mean to kill either Katrina or Tara, he did intend to kill Buffy - so he progresses from insensitive jerk, to (intended) rapist, to murderer. Still - Willow was very, very wrong to kill him as she did. Again, I am probably alone in Buffy fandom, but being the mom of a son about Warren's age, all I could think about was his mom, and how young he was. I agree with you here, and I think the only reason he doesn't get more is because he doesn't have any backstory. We see him the way he is now, but not how he got there. I think Adam Busch said in an interview somewhere that he doesn't see Warren so much as a villian as some one who consistently makes the wrong choice. I'd be curious to hear him expand more on this thought. I think it's sort an interesting commentary on how much is known about a character changes the way the audience perceives him/her. It's easier to dislike a character when you don't know or understand their motivations. One thing I thought was interest was how similar Buffy's "I need time getting comfortable with me" discussion with Xander is like the cookie dough conversation with Angel in Chosen. I've heard criticism that it's sort of redundant and it does sort of seem like Buffy never learns, but it occurred to me that at the end of this episode is when Joyce dies. In Forever, Buffy is telling Angel that she's "seriously needy right now." So I guess it takes until Chosen to get back to the place she was in this episode.
|
|
|
Post by SpringSummers on Jan 26, 2005 21:38:58 GMT -5
I agree with you here, and I think the only reason he doesn't get more is because he doesn't have any backstory. We see him the way he is now, but not how he got there. I think Adam Busch said in an interview somewhere that he doesn't see Warren so much as a villian as some one who consistently makes the wrong choice. I'd be curious to hear him expand more on this thought. I think it's sort an interesting commentary on how much is known about a character changes the way the audience perceives him/her. It's easier to dislike a character when you don't know or understand their motivations. One thing I thought was interest was how similar Buffy's "I need time getting comfortable with me" discussion with Xander is like the cookie dough conversation with Angel in Chosen. I've heard criticism that it's sort of redundant and it does sort of seem like Buffy never learns, but it occurred to me that at the end of this episode is when Joyce dies. In Forever, Buffy is telling Angel that she's "seriously needy right now." So I guess it takes until Chosen to get back to the place she was in this episode. Buffy does suffer quite a blow with Joyce's death. And it's also just human nature to have to learn a lesson several times before it "takes."
|
|