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Post by William the Bloody on Oct 6, 2004 7:22:14 GMT -5
Let the discussion begin!
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Post by Laura on Oct 6, 2004 22:24:08 GMT -5
Let the discussion begin!
Love is in the air in this ep -- I guess I was just focused on the "Big Bad" -- or maybe the "Little Bad" -- aspects of the episode -- just on the "there's a mystery and Buffy needs to solve it" type of episode. In some respects, this episode is almost a "stand-alone." But you pulled all the strands around together, tying it it both to the rest of Season 5 and to Season 6.
Brava![/size] |
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Post by Spaced Out Looney on Oct 7, 2004 0:48:46 GMT -5
In some respects, this episode is almost a "stand-alone." But you pulled all the strands around together, tying it it both to the rest of Season 5 and to Season 6. That's what I always find to interesting about this episode. It seems like a simple Monster (well Robot) of the Week episode, but it's not. It introduces Warren, Katrina, and the Buffybot, segues into "The Body" and examines Buffy's views on love and love in general. I really enjoyed the "parallel criss-crossing" part of your analysis, Spring. Well done. Despite how obnoxious Spike is in this episode, my heart really goes out to him when he confronts the gang in Magic Box. He tries to take his declarations of love back, but that's just not possible. And my heart goes out to Buffy, who feels so digusted and dirty that Spike has seen "[her] amazing heart, and fall[en] in love with [her]." He didn't intend to make her feel that way, but that's the way it is, at least for now. One last thing: I'm curious, Spring, can you explain what you meant referring to Spike as misogynistic? He's ranted about women in "Lover's Walk" and "Crush" but those sentiments always seemed fleeting. Or are you referring to the way he treated Harmony? I had always seen this as a point of contrast between Warren (mysogynistic) and Spike (respect and admiration of women). Maybe I'm missing something. |
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Post by SpringSummers on Oct 7, 2004 7:24:43 GMT -5
I'm speechless, Spring. This was so good!
Love is in the air in this ep -- I guess I was just focused on the "Big Bad" -- or maybe the "Little Bad" -- aspects of the episode -- just on the "there's a mystery and Buffy needs to solve it" type of episode. In some respects, this episode is almost a "stand-alone." But you pulled all the strands around together, tying it it both to the rest of Season 5 and to Season 6.
Brava! [/size][/quote] Yes - it sort of feels like a "filler" ep, but it is not at all - another big mislead, I suppose. As always, thanks for the feedback, Laura. It is always good to hear from you. |
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Post by SpringSummers on Oct 7, 2004 8:38:49 GMT -5
That's what I always find to interesting about this episode. It seems like a simple Monster (well Robot) of the Week episode, but it's not. It introduces Warren, Katrina, and the Buffybot, segues into "The Body" and examines Buffy's views on love and love in general. I really enjoyed the "parallel criss-crossing" part of your analysis, Spring. Well done. Thanks, Ms. Looney. Hope you aren't feeling too out in space today. I agree. This ep is much more significant than it seems at first. Yes - I think we are meant to feel sorry for poor little April, and that parallels drawn to April for both Buffy and Spike suggest the ep is meaning to draw similar feeling out for them - underneath all the craziness going on between them, they are two sad people. OK -here's what I was thinking when I wrote that: WARREN: At this point, all we know about Warren is that he is a big enough jerk about women to have created the sex-bot, and to treat Katrina in a offhand, disrespectful manner when he's in a blind panic about April. But we also know that he's fallen in love with the attractive, intelligent, independent Katrina - and despite his lack of maturity and know-how, really seems desperate to keep her. We don't really know about any other relationships in his life, other than he's on good enough terms with his parents to stay at their house over break, and bring his girlfriend home to meet them. We have no idea what his overall history with women is, or how he has ended up as he is. SPIKE: We know Spike is a big enough jerk about women to have treated Harmony like nothing more than a sex-bot, and to treat Buffy in the horrible manner he did - cattle prod, chains, etc. - when he felt desperate to win her over. But we also know that he's fallen in love with the attractive, intelligent, independent Buffy, and despite his lack of maturity and know-how, really seems desperate to hook up with her. We do know more about Spike than we know about Warren here though - we know that he also has exhibited respect and admiration and devotion to women, through his admiration of Cecily and relationship with Dru (we don't know about mummy yet.) SO COMPARING: At this point, they seem very similar, and what Katrina & Buffy are experiencing in relation to them seems very similar. Both exhibit mysogynistic behavior and attitudes. With Spike, we know it's a complex picture - we don't know yet, exactly, what is going on with him. We know he's bitter about both Cecily and Dru, and that fuels some of it. We don't know yet about the major root of it: What he viewed as a devastating, gross betrayal by mummy, when she turned on him, and even tried to use him sexually, after he bit her. Remember what Harmony said, in AtS, S5, when Spike told her about his mum coming on to him: "That explains a lot." And it would explain a lot, to Harmony - who took the brunt of the bitterness and hatred toward women he carried around. I do think that having respect and admiration for women on one hand, but some mysogynistic feelings for them on the other, is very possible; I don't see it as mutually exclusive. And it is what I see in Spike. As for Warren, we surely see at least as much of a streak of misogyny in him as we do in Spike . . . we really don't know if he's more, or less . . . good/evil, mysogynistic/respectful . . . than Spike, at this point. |
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Post by Spaced Out Looney on Oct 7, 2004 8:56:32 GMT -5
OK -here's what I was thinking when I wrote that: WARREN: At this point, all we know about Warren is that he is a big enough jerk about women to have created the sex-bot, and to treat Katrina in a offhand, disrespectful manner when he's in a blind panic about April. But we also know that he's fallen in love with the attractive, intelligent, independent Katrina - and despite his lack of maturity and know-how, really seems desperate to keep her. We don't really know about any other relationships in his life, other than he's on good enough terms with his parents to stay at their house over break, and bring his girlfriend home to meet them. We have no idea what his overall history with women is, or how he has ended up as he is. SPIKE: We know Spike is a big enough jerk about women to have treated Harmony like nothing more than a sex-bot, and to treat Buffy in the horrible manner he did - cattle prod, chains, etc. - when he felt desperate to win her over. But we also know that he's fallen in love with the attractive, intelligent, independent Buffy, and despite his lack of maturity and know-how, really seems desperate to hook up with her. We do know more about Spike than we know about Warren here though - we know that he also has exhibited respect and admiration and devotion to women, through his admiration of Cecily and relationship with Dru (we don't know about mummy yet.) SO COMPARING: At this point, they seem very similar, and what Katrina & Buffy are experiencing in relation to them seems very similar. Both exhibit mysogynistic behavior and attitudes. With Spike, we know it's a complex picture - we don't know yet, exactly, what is going on with him. We know he's bitter about both Cecily and Dru, and that fuels some of it. We don't know yet about the major root of it: What he viewed as a devastating, gross betrayal by mummy, when she turned on him, and even tried to use him sexually, after he bit her. Remember what Harmony said, in AtS, S5, when Spike told her about his mum coming on to him: "That explains a lot." And it would explain a lot, to Harmony - who took the brunt of the bitterness and hatred toward women he carried around. I don't think that having respect and admiration for women on one hand, but some mysogynistic feelings for them on the other, is very possible; I don't see it as mutually exclusive. And it is what I see in Spike. As for Warren, we surely see at least as much of a streak of misogyny in him as we do in Spike . . . we really don't know if he's more, or less . . . good/evil, mysogynistic/respectful . . . than Spike, at this point. OK, that makes sense. Thanks. |
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Post by SpringSummers on Oct 7, 2004 11:38:35 GMT -5
OK, that makes sense. Thanks. You're welcome. I wanted to mention here that I noticed your comment over on the Lie to Me thread, and added a few thoughts. Thanks for your insights on that one. It's a favorite of mine. |
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Post by LadyDi on Oct 9, 2004 0:20:41 GMT -5
"Weird love is better than no love." Better, maybe, but not good enough? Spike & misogyny: he's a demon, for pity's sake. As for letting Joss in, I'd advise against it (altho' it's too late for anyone here). Bad Chalky Evil Man. What did we ever do to him that he keeps breaking our hearts?  |
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Post by SpringSummers on Oct 9, 2004 1:21:48 GMT -5
"Weird love is better than no love." Better, maybe, but not good enough? Hi, LadyDi! I couldn't sleep so was glad to find some comment from you here to occupy my brain. On the wierd love . . . I suppose weird love can be good enough. Weird doesn't necessarily mean inferior, though it definitely CAN mean inferior, as in Warren & April. Yes, the demon-thing is a definite factor, but it's not the whole pic. Spike bitterness, that we see in his treatment of Harm, e.g., is also about very human reactions to his betrayal by mummy, and rejections by Cecily and Dru. I see his demon-infested, soulless state as what makes it impossible for him from to grow past those immature reactions . . . he can't put it all behind him, let go of the bitterness, understand and forgive, etc. Once he gets his soul, we finally see some real growth in this area, because (unlike Warren) he had it in him to grow if given the chance. Well - in a different way, Warren didn't get much of a chance either, but that's another story. Now you tell me!  Honestly, I am having mega-trouble getting through analyzing this next heartbreaking ep. But I do have it started and hope to get it done this weekend. |
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Post by Cal on Oct 9, 2004 21:57:29 GMT -5
I'm speechless, Spring. This was so good!
Love is in the air in this ep -- I guess I was just focused on the "Big Bad" -- or maybe the "Little Bad" -- aspects of the episode -- just on the "there's a mystery and Buffy needs to solve it" type of episode. In some respects, this episode is almost a "stand-alone." But you pulled all the strands around together, tying it it both to the rest of Season 5 and to Season 6.
Brava! [/size][/quote] I'm in complete agreement with Laura, Spring. This analysis is wonderful! This episode isn't a favourite of mine, although I do enjoy looking at Spike watching it. But you manage to make it a whole lot more interesting than I originally thought it was. Brava indeed! I'm looking forward to your next analysis, Spring. One of the most emotional and heartbreaking episodes of Buffy ever. I can't wait to see what you do with it. |
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Post by SpringSummers on Oct 10, 2004 0:10:21 GMT -5
I'm in complete agreement with Laura, Spring. This analysis is wonderful! This episode isn't a favourite of mine, although I do enjoy looking at Spike watching it. But you manage to make it a whole lot more interesting than I originally thought it was. Brava indeed! I'm looking forward to your next analysis, Spring. One of the most emotional and heartbreaking episodes of Buffy ever. I can't wait to see what you do with it. Cal - again, my thanks for your nice feedback. It is 1AM here but I can't sleep so I finished my analysis of The Body and just sent it to Vlad. The episode is so different from most, and watching it is so - gut wrenching - I am kind of clueless about how I did with it. It felt so different. |
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Post by Laura on Oct 10, 2004 21:18:49 GMT -5
Cal - again, my thanks for your nice feedback. It is 1AM here but I can't sleep so I finished my analysis of The Body and just sent it to Vlad.The episode is so different from most, and watching it is so - gut wrenching - I am kind of clueless about how I did with it. It felt so different.
I mean, gee, Spring, so sorry to hear you couldn't sleep!
Love you![/size] |
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Post by Karen on Oct 11, 2004 16:53:01 GMT -5
Loved your analysis, Spring!
I think we saw a passing of the torch with the whole Buffy's "amazing heart" and falling in love with it.
That's what Angel told Buffy, in almost the same words.
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Post by SpringSummers on Oct 13, 2004 15:07:13 GMT -5
Loved your analysis, Spring! I think we saw a passing of the torch with the whole Buffy's "amazing heart" and falling in love with it. That's what Angel told Buffy, in almost the same words. Thanks for the feedback, Karen. It is always appreciated. So - you are suggesting that the torch was passed from . . . Angel to Spike . . . by Xander's words about how someone new would see Buffy's amazing heart and fall in love with her? |
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Post by Karen on Oct 13, 2004 15:33:00 GMT -5
Thanks for the feedback, Karen. It is always appreciated. So - you are suggesting that the torch was passed from . . . Angel to Spike . . . by Xander's words about how someone new would see Buffy's amazing heart and fall in love with her? Thanks, Spring. I love your analyses. They always make me laugh and think, and go to a happy Spike place. Yes, it seemed that Xander's words "passed the torch", so to speak. I guess I wasn't too clear about what I meant. That's what I get for doing a post and run. I love the way Joss makes the story come full-circle. I feel that's why we got TGIQ - because the Spike/Angel/Buffy story was really over in his eyes.  BUFFY: Don't be so sure. Before I was the Slayer, I was... Well, I, I don't wanna say shallow, but... Let's say a certain person, who will remain nameless, we'll just call her Spordelia, looked like a classical philosopher next to me. Angel, if I'm not the Slayer, what do I do? What do I have to offer? Why would you like me?
ANGEL: (quietly) I saw you before you became the Slayer.
BUFFY: (confused) What?
ANGEL: I watched you, and I saw you called. It was a bright afternoon out in front of your school. You walked down the steps... and... and I loved you.
BUFFY: Why?
ANGEL: 'Cause I could see your heart. You held it before you for everyone to see. And I worried that it would be bruised or torn. And more than anything in my life I wanted to keep it safe... to warm it with my own.
BUFFY: That's beautiful. Or taken literally, incredibly gross.
ANGEL: (grimacing) I was just thinking that, too.
XANDER: There will be. Promise. He's out there, he could come along any minute.
BUFFY: Yeah, and the minute after that I can terrify him with my alarming strength and remarkable self-involvement.
XANDER: What? I don't think you're like that.
BUFFY: Maybe I could change. You know, I could, I could work harder. I could spend less time slaying, I could laugh at his jokes, I mean, men like that, right, the, the joke-laughing-at?
XANDER: Or maybe you could just be Buffy, he'll see your amazing heart, and he'll fall in love with you.
BUFFY: Xander, that's ... aw!
BUFFY: That’s my problem. I say the word, some girl dies. Every time.
SPIKE: There’s always casualties in a war.
BUFFY: Casualties… it just sounds so casual. These are girls. That I got killed. (beat) I cut myself off from them, all of them. I knew I was going to lose some of them and I didn’t… You know what? I’m still making excuses. I’ve always cut myself off, I’ve always… being the Slayer made me different but it’s my fault I stayed that way. People are always trying to connect to me but I just… slip away. (beat) You should know.
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SPIKE: You listen to me. I’ve been alive a bit longer than you and dead a lot longer than that. I’ve seen things you couldn’t imagine and done things I’d prefer you didn’t. I don’t exactly have a reputation for being a thinker. I follow my blood which doesn’t exactly rush in the direction of my brain so I make a lot of mistakes. A lot of wrong bloody calls. A hundred plus years and there’s only one thing I’ve ever been sure of.
You. Hey, look at me. I’m not asking you for anything. When I say I love you, it’s not because I want you, or because I can’t have you. It has nothing to do with me. I love what you are, what you do, how you try. I’ve seen your kindness and your strength. I’ve seen the best and the worst of you and I understand with perfect clarity exactly what you are. You are a hell of a woman. You’re the one, Buffy. |
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