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Post by Karen on Aug 28, 2005 19:01:09 GMT -5
Discuss!
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Post by Lola m on Aug 28, 2005 19:04:26 GMT -5
So. This is the Soulful Spike Society. Spike’s kind of an important guy around here. Folks tend to obsessively ogle watch for Spike in episodes. They like to discuss their real or fantasized liplocks with him Spike’s history and arc, examine his delicious nekkid body motives and thoughts. Really stalk get into the character, ya know?
Thus, our second most requested episode here in week 9 of the Sizzlin’  Angel Episode Festival should come as no surprise!
Damage   Who didn't get their thorazine? Oh, God! Sometimes you gotta work the system before it works you. End of the day, I'm thinking we made the right choice. Angel: You're not helping, Spike. Spike: No, I'm doing. She's not a demon, Wes. She's a vampire slayer. Sorry, luv. I don't speak Chinese. You're like... you're like Gandalf the White, resurrected from the pit of the Balrog, more beautiful than ever. Ohh... he's alive, Frodo. He's alive. You want to focus on what's real. I've done my share of bad, but you're not one of 'em. Nobody in our camp trusts you anymore. Angel: She's an innocent victim. Spike: So were we... once upon a time.
It’s time to bask in the Spikeness – to wallow in Spike-atude – to pause and magnify his . . . attributes. In short – to celebrate the life, death, unlife,
re-death, ghostlyness, recorporealization and continued glory of our beloved William, the Bloody Awful Poet.
**crowd begins to chant . . . .Spike! Spike!! SPIKE!!!*** Go forth and read Nan’s insightful and thought provoking Angel’s Investigations review of Damage here.
The discussion of her review is [url=http://scubiefan.proboards48.com/index.cgi?board=review&action=display&thread=1075397303&page=1[/b][/color][/size]here.[/url]
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Post by Julia, wrought iron-y on Aug 29, 2005 0:43:31 GMT -5
I'm only having small thoughts today, but this small thought occurred to me: although Spike accepts Dana's punishment as due him, even though he was not the one who hurt her, because he had done worse in his time, it is once again true that there is terrible damage done by a presumably souled mortal.
I'm bouncing back and fourth between thinking this was meant as a comment on Spike and Angel's souled status and how much or little that means to the choices they make later in the season, and seeing it as a missed opportunity to say something important about the issue of souls.
Julia, distracting myself from Katrina
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Post by Lola m on Aug 29, 2005 7:32:48 GMT -5
I'm only having small thoughts today, but this small thought occurred to me: although Spike accepts Dana's punishment as due him, even though he was not the one who hurt her, because he had done worse in his time, it is once again true that there is terrible damage done by a presumably souled mortal. I'm bouncing back and fourth between thinking this was meant as a comment on Spike and Angel's souled status and how much or little that means to the choices they make later in the season, and seeing it as a missed opportunity to say something important about the issue of souls. Julia, distracting myself from Katrina I bounce back and forth myself. Because I sometimes see a sub-theme of all of season 5 - heck, all of AtS - as a comment on how much or little a soul makes in the goodness and actions of characters. |
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Post by Lola m on Aug 29, 2005 7:46:12 GMT -5
Just a few of the things that struck me when re-watching Damage last night . . . * I'd kind of . . . forgotten just how creepy scary this ep is. I mean, I think I kind of deliberately forgot. * Love how when the gang is meeting with Andrew, the phrase "an army of slayers" is used - in awe, but you can also see them realizing some of the . . . possible outcomes of that. And then, what do we get at the end? A small army of slayers shows up to take Dana. * Lots of echoing phrases in this ep. Andrew talks about how he and Spike saved the world, and Buffy "helped". Mirroring the way Angel tried to diminish Spike's role in Chosen to the gang when Spike first appeared again in the second ep. Then of course, we get Dana repeating phrases from past slayers from Spike's past. * I don't think I'd remembered how very uncertain and tentative Spike is when Andrew first mentions Buffy. I think I'd concentrated so much on trying to analyse his final decision to not seek her out that I forgot his first stumbling lines when Andrew asks if Buffy knows he is alive. "I don't think so. I mean. I don't know. Does she?" And it's not just the words. His delivery of the lines is so uncharacteristically lost and tentative. Should have been all we needed to hear, really, to know he was completely demoralized when it came to Buffy and how she would react to him or feel about him. * I am such a sick puppy. Now that I've seen the ep and know what to expect, when Spike is sitting there with his arms cut off, I found myself being all "dang, he looks hot, all sprawled there on the floor".  **shameful facepalm** Sick, sick, sick puppy!! * The final scene between Angel and Spike still gets to me. Just. So. Powerful. |
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Post by Pixi on Aug 31, 2005 7:33:03 GMT -5
I agree Lola - quite a creepy and disturbing episode. I guess I never felt worried that the unseen torturer was Spike but still the chaining, the arms chopped off - very serial killer scary. (shiver)
The final scene is powerful. Such a great, great scene well played by both actors. I love it when a series gets to a point where the characters now have established backstories and long-term interaction. So it makes this kind of scene so much more powerful since we've watched these characters interact in so many other ways. Very well done by everyone.
I know Andrew grates some people and I certainly was initially in the camp of hey - why does he get to live and Jonathan die? But I must say, he kind of grew on me. It had to be the Storyteller episode with his Vampyre slayer lines that just sold me.
So I loved seeing him show up and all his interactions with Spike were priceless.
I'm still mad at SMG and well everyone involved for not bringing more of the Buffy cast over in Angel's final year. I agree that the emphasis should not have been taken off the Angel cast but there were moments that would have strengthened and completed the story much better with their interaction.
But maybe that's just me.
Anyway - powerful episode. I'm kind of surprised to see it so high on the list.
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Post by Lola m on Sept 1, 2005 7:37:28 GMT -5
I agree Lola - quite a creepy and disturbing episode. I guess I never felt worried that the unseen torturer was Spike but still the chaining, the arms chopped off - very serial killer scary. (shiver) Very shivery!! That's exactly it! We've come to know them and their stories. Know them in all different situations and times. Plus, the scene is so . . . calm and sad. Especially after all the drama earlier. And Joss mixes the funny with the serious - like Spike saying it's physically impossible to say Angel is right and then their quiet discussion of the different kinds of killers they are/were, and what will happend to Dana, and those subdued little lines about being innocent victims. Such a wow! scene. Sometimes I think Andrew is wonderful just because of all the reasons you shouldn't keep getting sucked into his fun and goofyness. I'll be having such a fun time with his dorkiness and, frankly, innocent sweetness (when he and Spike are talking alone together, sometimes the look on his face is just so . . . open and curious), and then memories of what he actually did hit me. I'll remember him killing Jonathan or not having a problem with other murders or . . . Such a wonderful complex thing Joss did with his character. I know I keep saying it, but really it's true. I was surprised at the variety of all the eps that were nominated. I mean, I was sort of thinking we'd get some kind of . . . . Spike's sexiest moments montage or something. I mean, we have lots of Spike fans (duh, Lola, look at the name of the site). And of course we do have a lot that showcase him. But I also think we have a nice panorama of both shows in their entirety. And at the end of the contest when I post the "next 10" (I plan on sharing what would have been the next episodes, so folks can watch and discuss those, if they feel like it), I think everyone will see even more interesting choices. Guess it's 'cuz we really are all Joss fans. ;D |
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Post by Spaced Out Looney on Sept 1, 2005 9:13:30 GMT -5
That's exactly it! We've come to know them and their stories. Know them in all different situations and times. Plus, the scene is so . . . calm and sad. Especially after all the drama earlier. And Joss mixes the funny with the serious - like Spike saying it's physically impossible to say Angel is right and then their quiet discussion of the different kinds of killers they are/were, and what will happend to Dana, and those subdued little lines about being innocent victims. Such a wow! scene. Eetah to this. All this talk about this final scene has reminded me of something. Spike and Angel both acknowledge that they were "innocent victims... once upon a time." This highlights an interesting aspect of their relationships with Dru and Darla, as perpetrators of said victimization, respectively. Angel reflects on this a little during season 2, "you damned me," but SouledSpike now has likely reached the same conclusion regarding Dru. |
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Post by SpringSummers on Sept 1, 2005 9:55:41 GMT -5
That's exactly it! We've come to know them and their stories. Know them in all different situations and times. Plus, the scene is so . . . calm and sad. Especially after all the drama earlier. And Joss mixes the funny with the serious - like Spike saying it's physically impossible to say Angel is right and then their quiet discussion of the different kinds of killers they are/were, and what will happend to Dana, and those subdued little lines about being innocent victims. Such a wow! scene. Eetah to this. All this talk about this final scene has reminded me of something. Spike and Angel both acknowledge that they were "innocent victims... once upon a time." This highlights an interesting aspect of their relationships with Dru and Darla, as perpetrators of said victimization, respectively. Angel reflects on this a little during season 2, "you damned me," but SouledSpike now has likely reached the same conclusion regarding Dru. Agree. It would be interesting to see Spike with Dru, now. Whenever Angel was confronted with Dru, he found himself too filled with guilt to do what needed to be done (stake her). He can't bring himself to do it. But, Spike - he just might be able to do it. Not as vengeance, but for her sake, to give her peace, at long last. It would fit the pattern of . . . cleaning up after Angel, for lack of a better way to put it. But if there ever was a Spike movie or series, killing off Dru wouldn't be such a great move, plotwise - she's a great character to bring into things every once in awhile. |
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Post by Queen E on Sept 1, 2005 17:02:10 GMT -5
Eetah to this. All this talk about this final scene has reminded me of something. Spike and Angel both acknowledge that they were "innocent victims... once upon a time." This highlights an interesting aspect of their relationships with Dru and Darla, as perpetrators of said victimization, respectively. Angel reflects on this a little during season 2, "you damned me," but SouledSpike now has likely reached the same conclusion regarding Dru. Agree. It would be interesting to see Spike with Dru, now. Whenever Angel was confronted with Dru, he found himself too filled with guilt to do what needed to be done (stake her). He can't bring himself to do it. But, Spike - he just might be able to do it. Not as vengeance, but for her sake, to give her peace, at long last. It would fit the pattern of . . . cleaning up after Angel, for lack of a better way to put it. But if there ever was a Spike movie or series, killing off Dru wouldn't be such a great move, plotwise - she's a great character to bring into things every once in awhile. He could have her re-ensouled, but that would be unbelievably cruel. |
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Post by SpringSummers on Sept 1, 2005 19:37:32 GMT -5
Agree. It would be interesting to see Spike with Dru, now. Whenever Angel was confronted with Dru, he found himself too filled with guilt to do what needed to be done (stake her). He can't bring himself to do it. But, Spike - he just might be able to do it. Not as vengeance, but for her sake, to give her peace, at long last. It would fit the pattern of . . . cleaning up after Angel, for lack of a better way to put it. But if there ever was a Spike movie or series, killing off Dru wouldn't be such a great move, plotwise - she's a great character to bring into things every once in awhile. He could have her re-ensouled, but that would be unbelievably cruel. I guess he could try to use the gypsy curse to re-ensoul her, but yes, that would be terrible. It wouldn't restore her sanity, so - I can't imagine anyone doing that except for the same reason the gypsies did it to Angel - to punish Dru. Staking her is exactly what I think Spike would do, actually. Just like he did his first mummy. |
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Post by Lola m on Sept 1, 2005 21:13:27 GMT -5
Agree. It would be interesting to see Spike with Dru, now. Whenever Angel was confronted with Dru, he found himself too filled with guilt to do what needed to be done (stake her). He can't bring himself to do it. But, Spike - he just might be able to do it. Not as vengeance, but for her sake, to give her peace, at long last. It would fit the pattern of . . . cleaning up after Angel, for lack of a better way to put it. But if there ever was a Spike movie or series, killing off Dru wouldn't be such a great move, plotwise - she's a great character to bring into things every once in awhile. He could have her re-ensouled, but that would be unbelievably cruel. Oh, yes. To have her sanity restored and have her broken mind have to cope with that? Definitely worse than dusting her. |
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Post by LadyDi on Sept 2, 2005 9:41:50 GMT -5
Just a few of the things that struck me when re-watching Damage last night . . . * I'd kind of . . . forgotten just how creepy scary this ep is. I mean, I think I kind of deliberately forgot. * Love how when the gang is meeting with Andrew, the phrase "an army of slayers" is used - in awe, but you can also see them realizing some of the . . . possible outcomes of that. And then, what do we get at the end? A small army of slayers shows up to take Dana. * Lots of echoing phrases in this ep. Andrew talks about how he and Spike saved the world, and Buffy "helped". Mirroring the way Angel tried to diminish Spike's role in Chosen to the gang when Spike first appeared again in the second ep. Then of course, we get Dana repeating phrases from past slayers from Spike's past. * I don't think I'd remembered how very uncertain and tentative Spike is when Andrew first mentions Buffy. I think I'd concentrated so much on trying to analyse his final decision to not seek her out that I forgot his first stumbling lines when Andrew asks if Buffy knows he is alive. "I don't think so. I mean. I don't know. Does she?" And it's not just the words. His delivery of the lines is so uncharacteristically lost and tentative. Should have been all we needed to hear, really, to know he was completely demoralized when it came to Buffy and how she would react to him or feel about him.
* I am such a sick puppy. Now that I've seen the ep and know what to expect, when Spike is sitting there with his arms cut off, I found myself being all "dang, he looks hot, all sprawled there on the floor". **shameful facepalm** Sick, sick, sick puppy!! * The final scene between Angel and Spike still gets to me. Just. So. Powerful. That's what really gets to me; Spike thinking Buffy might know he's returned and not even care. How awful to feel that way. And how awful to be seen that way. I know I'd be deeply hurt. |
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Post by Lola m on Sept 4, 2005 19:48:38 GMT -5
Just a few of the things that struck me when re-watching Damage last night . . . * I'd kind of . . . forgotten just how creepy scary this ep is. I mean, I think I kind of deliberately forgot. * Love how when the gang is meeting with Andrew, the phrase "an army of slayers" is used - in awe, but you can also see them realizing some of the . . . possible outcomes of that. And then, what do we get at the end? A small army of slayers shows up to take Dana. * Lots of echoing phrases in this ep. Andrew talks about how he and Spike saved the world, and Buffy "helped". Mirroring the way Angel tried to diminish Spike's role in Chosen to the gang when Spike first appeared again in the second ep. Then of course, we get Dana repeating phrases from past slayers from Spike's past. * I don't think I'd remembered how very uncertain and tentative Spike is when Andrew first mentions Buffy. I think I'd concentrated so much on trying to analyse his final decision to not seek her out that I forgot his first stumbling lines when Andrew asks if Buffy knows he is alive. "I don't think so. I mean. I don't know. Does she?" And it's not just the words. His delivery of the lines is so uncharacteristically lost and tentative. Should have been all we needed to hear, really, to know he was completely demoralized when it came to Buffy and how she would react to him or feel about him.
* I am such a sick puppy. Now that I've seen the ep and know what to expect, when Spike is sitting there with his arms cut off, I found myself being all "dang, he looks hot, all sprawled there on the floor". **shameful facepalm** Sick, sick, sick puppy!! * The final scene between Angel and Spike still gets to me. Just. So. Powerful. That's what really gets to me; Spike thinking Buffy might know he's returned and not even care. How awful to feel that way. And how awful to be seen that way. I know I'd be deeply hurt. **nods** And the ship sailing by behind Spike and Andrew just hammering the point home . . .  |
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**shameful facepalm** Sick, sick, sick puppy!!
