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Post by RAKSHA on Jul 1, 2003 23:48:05 GMT -5
Actually, Nanny nanny nah nah, I've been peeking at the Angel Spoiler board and reading all the speculation about next season and such. You know, I think the writers from Buffy weren't really behnd a Buffy/Spike romance. But I think that Buffy was definitely attracted to Spike and did have some feelings for him. I mean, if she didn't, then wouldn't any vampire do for a little shag? Or even a human guy, which she didn't go for over a vampire. I think Buffy was seduced by Spike's feelings for her. What woman wouldn't eventually fall into the arms of a man who risks everything to be with her? They never really addressed that aspect of the Spike/ Buffy relationship as far as I'm concerned. Blah blah blah, I gotta stop listening to the voices in my head. If Spike and Buffy had been able to finally have their romance as it should have played out, I'm not sure it would have lasted that long. They would have had a very intense affair, but I don't know if they could have been compatible over decades.
Picture the series finale of AtvS, set five years from "Chosen": Buffy says goodbye to Angel and Spike, saying that she'd loved them both, but has fallen in love with Wesley and will marry him and go train future Slayers. Well, maybe not Wesley, but someone who is not and never has been a vampire. She leaves. Angel turns to Spike and says "William, I think this is the beginning of a beautiful friendship". They go off into the fog together.
Gail
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Post by Kerrie on Jul 1, 2003 23:58:41 GMT -5
Angel is an exemplar of Classic Roman virtues: self-control, propriety, fierceness in battle, protection of women and small fluffy puppies...more or less. All superego and ego, minimal id (that's Angelus). Spike is an exemplar of Classic Greek virtues: respect for both the Appolonian (roughly analogous to superego, but not quite: instead, the higher, creative functions) and the Dionisian (the wild, chaotic, destructive which, suppressed, will fester and come back in a more malevolent form)--his demon, which he refuses to renounce, despite the soul. Very much carpe diem which, though Latin, is a Greek concept. Much more into living IN the body than into renouncing it, as the Romans had a habit of professing to do (though they seldom actually DID). For the most part, Spike enjoys every minute of every day. Angel would have apoplexy (and turn into Angelus) at one moment of the perfect happiness which Spike almost continually enjoys, with occasional interruptions like the chip and getting beaten up by Buffy and such annoyances. Or put another way, Angel is a big solemn fierce dog and Spike is a middle-sized cat--something on the order of a cougar. See, I'm trying to think myself through Angel and through Angel vs. Spike, compare and contrast. Haven't more than made a beginning yet, but I'm seeing some things through their opposition I'd been blind to before. More bulletins as they happen. I can't believe you are still coming up with new and interesting ways of analysing Spike, Buffy and Angel(us). My knowledge of all things mythological is sketchy, so can you tell me if the mythologies ever competed in some kind of academic battle and if so, who won? (This is my way of trying to understand JW's philosphy and ultimately predict his story arcs. And, before you ask, yes I AM a Virgo: a joyless control-freak.)
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Post by Kerrie on Jul 2, 2003 0:06:21 GMT -5
Congrats, new scubie! I am a fairly new scubie, too. But this new board is a little intimidating to me. I feel kind of wierd posting on it. And also...they were talking about Hitler last week and it totally gave me the wiggins! So I've been a little hesitant to post any opinions about anything now! Especially since some of these people are so prolific when stating their beliefs, and I usually just end up sounding like some kind of moron. With my luck I would come out sounding PRO-HITLER or something horrible like that and would get banned for life from the boards! Anyway, I digress. Enjoy your newfound scubie status! BetsyB. Anti-Hitler Poster! Ummm, sorry if I was one of the posters who intimidated you. All I can say is that I am an inconsiderate fool who cannot walk away from an argument no matter how many people I offend. I keep hoping and trying to improve, but so far I've only improved enough to walk away three-quarters of the way into an argument when I realise, too late, what I have done. Sorry. I wish people would IM me when I walk into an unwinnable argument like the Hitler one so that I can step away before I get carried away, but I suspect that may be asking too much.
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Post by Betsy on Jul 2, 2003 0:32:39 GMT -5
Just walked in the door, dropped suitcase and carryones and turned on the computer -- don't think I've ever gone this long without turning one one (lol).
Anyway, had a wonderful trip . . did lots of fun things and pretty much stayed out of trouble.
Will post more is you all are interested tomorrow. Gotta turn my film in and get the digitals from one of the gals I travelled with.
Have to say, I love Las Vegas . . . perfect city for me. Open 24/7 -- truly the City of Sin ;D
Now off to bed since I have to be at work in the morning.
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Post by Patti - S'cubie Cutie on Jul 2, 2003 0:41:51 GMT -5
Rusty, obviously I must be your evil twin, because I can't be your good one. And no, I'm not a Capricorn: I never lie about my age, but I always lie about my astrological sign because I was a 10 month baby and snuck into the wrong sign and it's never fit unless I was stupid and incapacitated: Virgo. I prefer to think of myself as Cancer, which isn't the right sign or even close, because the profile seems to fit much better: creative and impractical and a bit disorganized. Whereas Virgos are like Angel: organized, tight-assed, humorless nit-pickers (according to horoscope profiles, and apologies to any fine Virgos among us). Nope, never saw Summer School. Is it good? And finally, I'm beginning to understand Buffy a little better--her emotional remoteness is a function of the Slayer, I think. And that has certain fallout that's not wholly under her control. So I'm coming to terms better with Buffy than I used to. And do I want to smack her sometimes? To quote Spike again, "Hell, yes!" Gee...thanks for the 'out' Nan...(Virgo, but obviously not a organized, tight-ass humorless nitpicker) Ok, maybe ORGANIZED. ;D
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Post by Patti - S'cubie Cutie on Jul 2, 2003 0:49:43 GMT -5
I seem to be suffering from a slight case of Patti-itis here. There were so many good conversations this afternoon and I missed them. Damn that workplace! Actually, I can't blame it all on my job since I did spend every bit of free time writing my chapter. Oh well, this post is kinda pointless. I'm just talking to myself. "Hi Rae, how are you?" "I'm doing good, Rae. How 'bout yourself?" "Great. You know, you're so pretty! So humble and talented." "Ahh, shucks. You're too sweet." Hey, that's kinda fun. I don't know what Spike was complaining about in that basement. Talking to yourself isn't so bad. *sees everyone moving away from her slowly* Don't worry. Sure, I'm crazy but I'm harmless *grins* Alright, I've amused myself enough for one evening (and forced all of you to "listen" as well). Time for sleep. Hope everyone has an enjoyable night! I kinda love that I'm a legend in my own time....even if I do sound like the carrier of some dread disease... ;D
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Post by karalee on Jul 2, 2003 0:51:54 GMT -5
I was thinking today (or yesterday, I can't remember, my days run together) about what would have happened if Spike hadn't died and made it out with the rest of them. Would they have tried to have a relationship or would Buffy had given him the cookie dough speech. I think they would have tried to make a go of it, but whether it would have lasted I couldn't say. I don't think I'm saying what I mean here. I shouldn't post late at night. Okay, after reading my own post I realize that I'm an idiot. I totally contradicted my own opinion of Spike moving on. So I am just going to delete said post. No one read the fine print please. Just move it along, nothing to see here. Sheesh, I'm a moron at 1:45am.
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Post by RAKSHA on Jul 2, 2003 0:59:19 GMT -5
Virgos are like Angel: organized, tight-assed, humorless nit-pickers (according to horoscope profiles, and apologies to any fine Virgos among us). quote] Angel actually does have a sense of fun and humor that peeks out occasionally. It manifests really nastily when he's Angelus; but I've seen him having fun, or at least a fun moment, as Angel. Remember when he bought clothes for Cordelia and she was all over him and hugging him, and he was smiling, almost giddy with how well his plan to entice her to forgive him had worked, despite Wesley's advice to take things slowly. It was a funny scene. I think Angel represses his own ability to have fun, perhaps to avoid tempting Angelus to re-surface.
Gail
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Post by Vlad on Jul 2, 2003 1:00:10 GMT -5
<----doesnt think he is humorless, is as far from organized as a pool hustler is from being the pope, and concerning my ass ... *whirls around and around, trying to see it*
Hey now, that is a pretty nice tight ass...Okay... I'll give you that I have a nice ass...what? *pauses;listens to his organized assistant* errr.. she didn't mean what that way? Ohhhh! Well, in that case, my ass is definitely NOT tight!
Vlad, Virgo and damn proud..err, well not asshamed, err, okay, accepting of it
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Post by RAKSHA on Jul 2, 2003 1:06:24 GMT -5
Angel is an exemplar of Classic Roman virtues: self-control, propriety, fierceness in battle, protection of women and small fluffy puppies...more or less. All superego and ego, minimal id (that's Angelus). For the most part, Spike enjoys every minute of every day. Angel would have apoplexy (and turn into Angelus) at one moment of the perfect happiness which Spike almost continually enjoys, with occasional interruptions like the chip and getting beaten up by Buffy and such annoyances. Or put another way, Angel is a big solemn fierce dog and Spike is a middle-sized cat--something on the order of a cougar. . I think Spike is more like a dog than a cat. Dogs are more social animals; and Spike is not a solitary critter. If anyone is interested, I'll finish developing my list of Jossverse Characters As Dog Breeds. I already have Angel and Spike and Buffy and Wesley figured out... Gail
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Post by Nan-S'cubie Mascot on Jul 2, 2003 1:38:29 GMT -5
Very interesting thoughts on Spike and the Poof-er-Angelcakes. I see Spike as far more Dionysian than Apollonian; while William was all Apollonian but not very good at it. And Spike is a true Romantic. I remember my college literature teacher saying, that the Romantic credo (in literature, poetry and lifestyle) could be expressed as "I always go on until I am stopped. And I am never stopped." Unless I'm mixing up my recollection and that's what my prof said about Byron and some of his fellow poets. (of Byron, he said that the guy had sex with practically anything that moved). Anyway, that line about going on until one is stopped but never being stopped reminds me of Spike. Spike may be stopped occasionally by circumstance or luck, but he has always been the most passionate member of the cast. Part of his considerable charm.
Buffy has never really had much time to sit back and consider the larger picture. Also, mentally, she is not much of a philosopher; she is far more focussed on the Now and what needs doing and how to do it. Which is why she and Spike make such a lovely couple, they complement each other.
After her resurrection, Buffy was thrust rather quickly into single motherhood of Dawn, financial woes and a miserable waitress job, and the continual burden of Slayerhood. Not much time for fun and games and the simple joys of maidenhood (well, almost-maidenhood, whatever). I also think that Buffy was totally exhausted, at the end of her rope, when she marched off without protest in THE END OF DAYS (I think that's the eppy). She was feeling tremendous guilt for getting Potentials killed, Xander maimed; and then the people she trusted most, the Scoobies and Dawn, turned on her publically. That's when Spike really became her Champion; her giving him the amulet was a formal recognition of what she had come to realize.
I wouldn't want to see Spike become a good guy just for the sake of doing good; that's what Angel does. We don't need two Angels. I have no problem with Spike doing good for multiple reasons, i.e. it's the right thing to do and killing big vicious demons is such fun and he can dust more vampires than the Poof can.
Gail 100% with you on all this, Gail. Every last drop. (Thud)
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Post by Nan-S'cubie Mascot on Jul 2, 2003 1:42:04 GMT -5
I can't believe you are still coming up with new and interesting ways of analysing Spike, Buffy and Angel(us). My knowledge of all things mythological is sketchy, so can you tell me if the mythologies ever competed in some kind of academic battle and if so, who won? (This is my way of trying to understand JW's philosphy and ultimately predict his story arcs. And, before you ask, yes I AM a Virgo: a joyless control-freak.) Kerrie, I don't think any of them ever wins. They just keep showing up in new masks, new alliances, new oppositions. Infinite diversity in infinite combination.... Per Spock, anyway, this is to be desired.
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Post by Nan-S'cubie Mascot on Jul 2, 2003 1:47:03 GMT -5
Virgos are like Angel: organized, tight-assed, humorless nit-pickers (according to horoscope profiles, and apologies to any fine Virgos among us). quote] Angel actually does have a sense of fun and humor that peeks out occasionally. It manifests really nastily when he's Angelus; but I've seen him having fun, or at least a fun moment, as Angel. Remember when he bought clothes for Cordelia and she was all over him and hugging him, and he was smiling, almost giddy with how well his plan to entice her to forgive him had worked, despite Wesley's advice to take things slowly. It was a funny scene. I think Angel represses his own ability to have fun, perhaps to avoid tempting Angelus to re-surface.
Gail Again, I'm with you, Gail. I think we're also agreed that for Angel, laughter is a guilty pleasure.
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Post by Nan-S'cubie Mascot on Jul 2, 2003 1:53:09 GMT -5
Now that I've offended all my fellow Virgos on the board (and keep in mind that I'm a Virgo too, except that I'm in firm denial about it), it's probably time to go back to bed.
See, Patti? You're not the only one who can hold a one-man posting/sniping party. But your record and uniqueness and sheer volume will never be approached, much less surpassed.
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Post by RAKSHA on Jul 2, 2003 2:24:27 GMT -5
Again, I'm with you, Gail. I think we're also agreed that for Angel, laughter is a guilty pleasure. Great minds think alike, at least sometimes! Gail
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