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Post by Shan on Nov 8, 2003 9:23:12 GMT -5
I know a lot of you won't agree with me, but I've decided that Spike & Angel do deserve to feel guilty for the deaths they caused before getting their souls. I base this decision primarily on who their first victims were--not counting the guy in the graveyard when Angelus was raised. Angelus' first true victims were the people who made him unhappy as a human, his family--particularly his father--and the people in the village where he lived. Spike's first siring was his own mother. The choosing of these victims was very deliberate. Angelus acted on the anger and hatred he felt towards those persons, Spike by the love he felt and the desire to save his mother from a slow, lingering death from TB. They were both motivated by feelings they had BEFORE they were turned. They can't say later that the demon TOTALLY controlled their actions. They did things they wanted to do BEFORE they were demons--Angel wanted to kill his father and the people in the village who looked down on him and Spike wanted to save his mother. That's way I feel they deserve to feel guilt for their actions AS demons. Remember what Darla told Angel at the end of The Prodigal? After Angelus killed his parents, she said: "What we once were informs all that we have become. The same love will infect our hearts, even if they no longer beat. Simple death won’t change that." In early Buffy season, Giles tells Buffy that vampires have the memories and feelings of when they were human, but not the souls to go with them. I think the Jossverse lesson (among others lol) is that we ALL have those feelings, we just don't, for whatever reason, act on them (otherwise, we'd all be pretty much criminally insane). In the Jossverse, the absence of the soul removes even the smallest bit of compunction about the acting out of feelings or fantasies or fury. Besides, if vampires didn't rise with the memories and feelings of their hosts, they'd just be zombies. Shanno
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Post by Nickim on Nov 8, 2003 9:36:13 GMT -5
Remember what Darla told Angel at the end of The Prodigal? After Angelus killed his parents, she said: "What we once were informs all that we have become. The same love will infect our hearts, even if they no longer beat. Simple death won?t change that." In early Buffy season, Giles tells Buffy that vampires have the memories and feelings of when they were human, but not the souls to go with them. I think the Jossverse lesson (among others lol) is that we ALL have those feelings, we just don't, for whatever reason, act on them (otherwise, we'd all be pretty much criminally insane). In the Jossverse, the absence of the soul removes even the smallest bit of compunction about the acting out of feelings or fantasies or fury. Besides, if vampires didn't rise with the memories and feelings of their hosts, they'd just be zombies. Shanno But the people that DO act on those feelings deserve to feel guilty, don't they? Many of them don't, due to the lack of conscience, but they still DESERVE to feel guilt. I read a book about one of the FBI agents who started the section where they do the criminal profiling. His take on the "they can't help themselves because of this compulsion they feel" was that if serial killers feel such a compulsion to kill and can't help themselves, why don't they kill someone in front of a policeman and why do they hide the bodies so as to not get caught. They're not truly under a compulsion, like someone who is truly insane. They kill 'cause they like it, just like vampires. A friend of mine was studying clinical pyschology and was interviewing a convicted murderer who told her he killed people because he liked the way it made him feel. He felt no guilt, but if he ever did, it would definitely be deserved.
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Post by Spring Summers on Nov 8, 2003 9:39:18 GMT -5
Help!
I can't get logged on.
I am using the right ID and password. It recognizes me and says "Hi Spring, you have 28 messages, 1 is new" but then it also shows "an error has occured" and when I try to get into the messages, or do anything a ony a logged in person can do, it won't let me,
Whoever IM'd me, I can't read your message.
I tried both Netscape and IE. I tried going completely out of the site and back in, etc.
It is very weird!
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Post by Karen on Nov 8, 2003 9:51:45 GMT -5
Help! I can't get logged on. I am using the right ID and password. It recognizes me and says "Hi Spring, you have 28 messages, 1 is new" but then it also shows "an error has occured" and when I try to get into the messages, or do anything a ony a logged in person can do, it won't let me, Whoever IM'd me, I can't read your message. I tried both Netscape and IE. I tried going completely out of the site and back in, etc. It is very weird! Spring, I've had that happen to me before. My computer had turned up it's security so that it wasn't reading cookies. It remembered the first log in that I did, but when I tried to change screens, like you are in trying to access your email, it wasn't 'seeing' me. Check your internet options and see if that may be your problem.
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Post by Spring Summers on Nov 8, 2003 9:53:16 GMT -5
Well - I see there are no technopagans on the board right now, so I am going to log off and try later.
I was out at that three day conference and am way behind on the board discussion of the last ep but must say, from what little I have seen:
-I don't think Angel is going to be keeping his "Connor" secret all season. I think it is going to come out, possibily from those files Gunn said they had on "every deal." I also suspected that Angel's unintentional Father-son slip up with Wes might foreshadow such a thing.
-I thought Spike's interest in the Shanshu thing was due to his seeking some hope that there might be an end to his current ghostly situation.
-Angel stepping in and basically "being" the fifth brother, I need to chew on all that a bit. Haven't had much time to contemplate.
-Spike saying, "if someone was trying to take my heart, I'd try to take his first" (paraphrasing) this sure made me think of his relationship with Buffy. The way they were constantly trying to be the one in control. And it made me wonder what was ahead in his relationship with Angel.
- I noticed how Number 5 said that he and his brothers never competed or bickered and were a true team. Of course, competing and bickering are a big deal for Spike & Angel. I wonder if they are being set up to compete (for the Shanshu) - a set up to get them to destroy one another . . . but that will ultimately get them to understand that competing and bickering will destroy them both?
-I noticed that Angel said something to #5 about how you can't hide behind a mask forever. Llisten to yourself, Angel. And how when he said to #5, "I'm not the one behind a mask standing in a graveyard," #5 said, "you will be." Huh.
I must watch this again if there is time. I'm sure it is loaded with goodies I have missed.
Well - I wish I could log in!
I'm sure I'm not going to be able to catch up on all the ep discussion, so forgive any repeats of anything you've already discussed into the ground.
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Post by Spring Summers on Nov 8, 2003 9:54:46 GMT -5
Spring, I've had that happen to me before. My computer had turned up it's security so that it wasn't reading cookies. It remembered the first log in that I did, but when I tried to change screens, like you are in trying to access your email, it wasn't 'seeing' me. Check your internet options and see if that may be your problem. Thanks, I'll try that. My son was using this computer while I was at conference, so maybe he reset something!
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Post by Shan on Nov 8, 2003 9:58:15 GMT -5
But the people that DO act on those feelings deserve to feel guilty, don't they? Many of them don't, due to the lack of conscience, but they still DESERVE to feel guilt. I read a book about one of the FBI agents who started the section where they do the criminal profiling. His take on the "they can't help themselves because of this compulsion they feel" was that if serial killers feel such a compulsion to kill and can't help themselves, why don't they kill someone in front of a policeman and why do they hide the bodies so as to not get caught. They're not truly under a compulsion, like someone who is truly insane. They kill 'cause they like it, just like vampires. A friend of mine was studying clinical pyschology and was interviewing a convicted murderer who told her he killed people because he liked the way it made him feel. He felt no guilt, but if he ever did, it would definitely be deserved. I think we're kind of getting a mixture of apples and oranges here, and I'm not quite sure what point you're trying to make. Let me see if I can get there. You're saying that Angel and Spike *deserve* to feel guilty in the same way that real-world killers deserve to feel guilty? I'm finding a bit of a disconnect there, since one is reality and one is Jossverse. Shanno
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Post by Spring Summers on Nov 8, 2003 10:04:04 GMT -5
Spring, I've had that happen to me before. My computer had turned up it's security so that it wasn't reading cookies. It remembered the first log in that I did, but when I tried to change screens, like you are in trying to access your email, it wasn't 'seeing' me. Check your internet options and see if that may be your problem. No go. My security and privacy settings were no different, but I lowered them any way, just to see if it made a difference, and it did not. I don't know, but this is pretty discouraging. I am out of ideas.
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Post by Shan on Nov 8, 2003 10:12:20 GMT -5
No go. My security and privacy settings were no different, but I lowered them any way, just to see if it made a difference, and it did not. I don't know, but this is pretty discouraging. I am out of ideas. Log of, turn of, turn on, log on, pick it up and shake it, do the hokey pokey and turn yourself around... Good luck
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Post by Spring again on Nov 8, 2003 10:12:53 GMT -5
No go. My security and privacy settings were no different, but I lowered them any way, just to see if it made a difference, and it did not. I don't know, but this is pretty discouraging. I am out of ideas. Played around a little more, lowering security and privacy settings, making sure I was set up to accept cookies and the like, but still no-go. If any technopagans see this, any advice is appreciated. I am getting off the site for now. Will give the possible causes more thought and check back later. Apologies again to whomever sent me the IM. I can't read it so . . . I'll read it and respond as soon as I am able.
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Post by Karen on Nov 8, 2003 10:26:50 GMT -5
I know a lot of you won't agree with me, but I've decided that Spike & Angel do deserve to feel guilty for the deaths they caused before getting their souls. I base this decision primarily on who their first victims were--not counting the guy in the graveyard when Angelus was raised. Angelus' first true victims were the people who made him unhappy as a human, his family--particularly his father--and the people in the village where he lived. Spike's first siring was his own mother. The choosing of these victims was very deliberate. Angelus acted on the anger and hatred he felt towards those persons, Spike by the love he felt and the desire to save his mother from a slow, lingering death from TB. You can be sure they continued to kill anyone who annoyed them, whether they were hungry or not. Remember Spike in School Hard--"I'm a veal man, myself and you're too old to eat, but not to kill". No one can reasonably argue that Spike killed that man because he needed his blood to survive. The analogy of vampires as wolves or other predators doesn't really fit either. Animals don't kill for fun, vampires do. They were both motivated by feelings they had BEFORE they were turned. They can't say later that the demon TOTALLY controlled their actions. They did things they wanted to do BEFORE they were demons--Angel wanted to kill his father and the people in the village who looked down on him and Spike wanted to save his mother. That's way I feel they deserve to feel guilt for their actions AS demons. Hi Nicki! Hope your back is feeling better today. I think I know what you mean by you feel that Spike and Angel deserve the guilt they feel. It's kind of a judgement word - deserve. I think that Angel certainly felt anger towards his family and that anger colored his actions when he was ensouled. Spike didn't feel anger towards his mother until after he turned her, and then later realized that wasn't his really his mother who said those awful things about him. He might have been angry at Cecily, but I think he was more heartbroken than angry. Angel has a more violent personality than Spike. The demon in him uses that to his advantage. The soul in him contrains his violent tendencies. I think that Angel can't help acting broody from his feelings of guilt, because of his personality - whether he deserves to feel that way probably doesn't matter - he can't help feeling that way because of who he is - and it burdens him. Spike, on the other hand, I think, sees himself in a different light and because of that, even though he feels guilt for his actions as a demon, doesn't actually hold himself responsible for his actions without a soul. He has more self-esteem because he was raised by a loving mother. So whether or not they deserve the remorse they feel, it's still going to be there in one form or another. The demon in them certainly deserves the guilt that is felt, but of course, the demon doesn't feel that guilt - it has no conscience/human soul. Do you think that people deserve to feel guilty for thinking bad thoughts? I think deserve maybe doesn't quite fit - maybe it should be "should" feel guilty - should have a conscience. In that case, yes we need to feel guilty because it would stop us for acting on our bad thoughts.
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Post by DaveCrenshaw on Nov 8, 2003 10:40:17 GMT -5
Good morning everyone. Seems we've passed the 500 post mark. I'll be setting up part 65, and then this section will be closed down. You've got a few minutes to finish any of your current thoughts before I lock the doors and move things to the new section.
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Post by Nickim on Nov 8, 2003 10:42:14 GMT -5
Hi Nicki! Hope your back is feeling better today. I think I know what you mean by you feel that Spike and Angel deserve the guilt they feel. It's kind of a judgement word - deserve. I think that Angel certainly felt anger towards his family and that anger colored his actions when he was ensouled. Spike didn't feel anger towards his mother until after he turned her, and then later realized that wasn't his really his mother who said those awful things about him. He might have been angry at Cecily, but I think he was more heartbroken than angry. Angel has a more violent personality than Spike. The demon in him uses that to his advantage. The soul in him contrains his violent tendencies. I think that Angel can't help acting broody from his feelings of guilt, because of his personality - whether he deserves to feel that way probably doesn't matter - he can't help feeling that way because of who he is - and it burdens him. Spike, on the other hand, I think, sees himself in a different light and because of that, even though he feels guilt for his actions as a demon, doesn't actually hold himself responsible for his actions without a soul. He has more self-esteem because he was raised by a loving mother. So whether or not they deserve the remorse they feel, it's still going to be there in one form or another. The demon in them certainly deserves the guilt that is felt, but of course, the demon doesn't feel that guilt - it has no conscience/human soul. Do you think that people deserve to feel guilty for thinking bad thoughts? I think deserve maybe doesn't quite fit - maybe it should be "should" feel guilty - should have a conscience. In that case, yes we need to feel guilty because it would stop us for acting on our bad thoughts. I don't know your religious background, but I have to go with what Jesus said at Matthew 5: 28 "I say to you that everyone that keeps on looking at a woman so as to have a passion for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart." The consequence of not rejecting bad desires in shown at James 1:14 & 15, " Each one is tried by being drawn out and enticed by his own desire. Then the desire, when it has become fertile, gives birth to sin." So I agree that we should feel guilty about bad thoughts, because if we keep dwelling on them, most people will eventually act on those thoughts. Or we'll do things that bother our conscience, but we ignore it and it becomes calloused so that each new bad thing we do doesn't bother us like it once would have.
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Post by Nickim on Nov 8, 2003 10:43:00 GMT -5
I think we're kind of getting a mixture of apples and oranges here, and I'm not quite sure what point you're trying to make. Let me see if I can get there. You're saying that Angel and Spike *deserve* to feel guilty in the same way that real-world killers deserve to feel guilty? I'm finding a bit of a disconnect there, since one is reality and one is Jossverse. Shanno But we discuss the Jossverse like it's real.
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Post by DaveCrenshaw on Nov 8, 2003 10:54:29 GMT -5
Tick Tock, Time is up. I'm locking the doors and turning out the lights on this section. Part 65 awaits your thoughts and posts. Do have fun. Meet you over there.
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