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Post by RAKSHA on Nov 13, 2003 2:25:37 GMT -5
This time, not there with you, Scooter. I thought, from LMPTM, that William's mum was quite aggressive in stating that she wanted to take Master Willie (Did I really call him that? The hour is late, and I am old.) to bed. He was repelled and disgusted, realized he'd created (by unleashing the demon) this monster, and killed her to release the horror that had been her, and then suffered for the next 123 years till he was freed by the parykote (spell?) stone and the session in Wood's garage. I mean, they were WAY too close in Fool for Love and the early scenes in LMPTM. Such a mama's boy is not created in a vacuum; the mama needs the boy. Pure Freud. feh. Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.
I saw no evidence of Freudian sexual-incest overtones in Anne's characterization or in William's earlier appearance in FOOL FOR LOVE. Yes, Anne was too close to her son. I think William was her only child, and she showered him with too much love and not enough exposure to any discipline or experience that might toughen him up at all. I wonder if William was sent off to boarding school to be bullied or stayed at home with Mummy and tutors. But unlike Liam's father, Anne did not try to restrain William from interests that didn't necessarily include Mummy - she was genuinely pleased by his interest in Cecily.
I infer that William was an only child, or, if he had siblings, they died before he had much chance to know them; and that William's father died when the boy was also quite young. Anne was either estranged from her own relatives or didn't get along with them; she and her son became very close because they didn't have anyone else. (one wonders why a woman with Anne's obviously pleasant demeanor and money wouldn't marry again, but perhaps she found it easier to idealize the memory of her departed hubby than find a replacement)
I also have the feeling that Anne was, like her son, sensitive and romantic. And that William's father was much more like snarky Spike in character - funny, fun and enjoying sports/hunting/violence...
Wouldn't you love to be the W&H house psychiatrist, having a group therapy session with Angel, Spike and Wesley and getting them to open up about their parents?GAIL
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Post by Betsy on Nov 13, 2003 2:39:37 GMT -5
1. Who are the cyborgs working for? Good Side or Evil Side? PTB or Senior Partners?
2. If the Watcher's Council was destroyed (and we saw it pretty much was), how the hell did they get all that information on Wesley?
3. The taking of Angel's free will, had me thinking that was how Jasmine worked last season -- tie in somehow?
4. Eve not convincing to me in insinuating that Spike was who the Senior Partners where after all along? I think she's here to just throw in lots of red herrings and confusion and to fan some flames.
But Angel's anger at the beginning . . . haven't seen him that angry in a long, long time.
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Post by RAKSHA on Nov 13, 2003 2:56:44 GMT -5
I'm not sure about previous seasons, but in S5, Fred has made several comments to Wesley about being patronizing. In 5x01, it was about the run-on sentences. I'm tired and I can't remember, but I'm sure there was another one last week. Today, it was something like "Thanks, I'll take a gun, too, Wesley!" as he Matrix-rolls off with both of them for himself. And, later, when she tries to point out how patronizing his attitude was toward her ("I have to protect you! Ungh!") it sounded pretty pathetic. I realize this is no longer Buffyverse and there is no "grrl power" on Angel, but does it really have to be this bad? I want Electrogirl or something. Lilah. Evil Cordy. Shoe-bitca Cordy, even. Anybody. Is the "Me Tarzan/You Jane" routine an attempt to interject some sparkage between Fred and Wesley with the conflict it creates? Or are they trying to drive a wedge between them when Fred eventually tells Wes, "You obviously mean well, but you're a condescending pr*ck!" Speaking of wedges, Knox...I'm starting to think that Knox is a tool. His timing is monumentally inconvenient for any budding relationship development between Fred and Wesley. Supernaturally convenient interruptions keep happening. Another way of keeping the AI gang from re-connecting? Just a thought. Especially a thought since I don't think Knox was ever cleared by Lorne. Wake up, people! Knox is EVIL! Eve and Knox are like Glory and Ben! Have we ever seen them TOGETHER in the same scene? Shanno I have never thought it patronizing when a man tries to protect a woman he loves from being hurt in combat - unless they're both soldiers in which case they have to fight, it's their job. Wesley didn't, if I remember right, say that Fred was ineffective in a combat situation or should never try that again, he just felt bad that he could not prevent her being hurt, not to mention exposing her to the possibility of being killed. Isn't that a natural feeling when one person loves another? If Fred had been in love with Wesley, and been in charge of that covert operation, she would have felt guilty too if he'd been hurt; but if she'd have said so, I doubt that Wes would have told her she was being patronizing.
You've hit on a brilliant idea - that Knox could be a tool of the Senior Partners! I think the Senior Partners are out to isolate Angel by separating his loyal teammates from him, also by alienating anyone who could become a strong ally (i.e. Spike). Wesley and Gunn and Fred are formidable assets to Angel. Gunn has already been compromised; he already owes W&H more than do Fred and Wes, and he is becoming dangerously happy and possibly complacent in his new role. If Fred is seduced by Knox, he could not only weaken her loyalty to Angel, but motivate Wesley to leave W&H to avoid watching the daily spectacle of the FRED LOVES KNOX show. That would leave Angel with only Spike as an ally; and Eve is working on him too, making him think that Angel was the Partners' patsy and Spike their actual hoped-for prize (i.e. someone actually valuing Spike more than Angel, which would really push Spike's buttons).
I still think that Eve is actually one of the Senior Partners in corporeal human form...
GAIL
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Post by RAKSHA on Nov 13, 2003 3:02:24 GMT -5
1. Who are the cyborgs working for? Good Side or Evil Side? PTB or Senior Partners? 2. If the Watcher's Council was destroyed (and we saw it pretty much was), how the hell did they get all that information on Wesley? 3. The taking of Angel's free will, had me thinking that was how Jasmine worked last season -- tie in somehow? 4. Eve not convincing to me in insinuating that Spike was who the Senior Partners where after all along? I think she's here to just throw in lots of red herrings and confusion and to fan some flames. But Angel's anger at the beginning . . . haven't seen him that angry in a long, long time. One thing that bothers me in an otherwise very good season (so far) is the unanswered questions that are apparently just being left up in the air: WHO sent that envelope with the Spiked amulet, addressed to Angel, that when opened would return Spike to the world? Now there's an unexplained and very cunning attack on W&H and Angel through Wesley by someone with access to Watchers' records and Wesley's childhood memories (how did the cyborg know about the incident with the bird when Wesley was so young?) - and no one seems particularly eager to plan a counter-attack, to find out who was behind it, to protect themselves from future attacks? A dangerous passivity.
Is JW going to just keep the questions unanswered, have Angel & co. put their curiosity and self-protective instincts on hold?
GAIL
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Post by Betsy on Nov 13, 2003 3:21:44 GMT -5
In rewatching the episode, something struck me . . .
"The last girl I was with, I had to chop into tiny, little pieces because a high power saw fit to stab her in the neck?"
Okay, we know this was evil Cordy, pregnant with Jasmine who did this with the intent of having it blamed on Angelus.
So is this the mindwipe maybe wearing away, or were some memories from last season just altered magically when Connor was taken away?
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Post by Reetta on Nov 13, 2003 5:05:21 GMT -5
Not so much discussing last night's episode here, because I can't but I'll say that the new season sounds so good I'm going to cry I may be crying at this very moment (but it is good crying). I also feel an utter lack of any brain activity regarding any and all things Angel or Buffy, being deprived of new episodes of either series for a quite long period of time. I feel like I sometimes fail to grasp the complexity of the storyline this season, it is just a few things here and a few things there. Who is whose ally? I can't think outside the bloody box. No matter how much info there is on the net. This is too mind-boggling! I guess you have to see it. It's nice that they are giving AD more screen time. And Wesley killing his father who was a cyborg, huh? He definitely deserves it. The screen time, not the killing. Due to what I said above, my thoughts on this are not bound to be very profound. Knox is a complete mystery to me. And Gunn is somehow the one most susceptible to influences of the Senior Partners? Of the core group, I mean. Because no one knows about Eve or Knox yet. And this is the first time the cyborgs appeared? I get that everybody's feeling disconnected. And more and more characters keep coming in. Tell me I'm getting something right here. This is all very disconcerting. But then again, maybe it is just me.
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Post by S'ewing S'cubie on Nov 13, 2003 5:50:57 GMT -5
what do brfakfj and werja mean? If they are naughty, nevermind, cause I'm very seldom naughty. Yeah. Right.
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Post by DaveCrenshaw on Nov 13, 2003 6:19:17 GMT -5
Pierce Brosnan is Irish -- I haven't heard any complaints about his playing the very English Bond.
Besides -- George Lazenby? Please.
And anyway, AD has pretty much proved over these years that he can do the accent -- and those moves he showed tonight with the guns! Hot!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Yes, Pierce Brosnan is Irish. Sean Connery is Scottish. Timothy Dalton is Welsh. Still that's a far cry from American. I just don't see an American James Bond anymore than I see one from Canada or Australia, no matter how good he may be at faking the accent. Besides, I would be afraid that Alexis might step down from AtS if offered a role like that. BTW -- this was a wonderful performance by Alexis. Second only to seeing him stalk Fred throughout the Hyperion in "Billy". That performance gave me shivers.
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Post by DaveCrenshaw on Nov 13, 2003 6:24:18 GMT -5
<snip>
Also, I don't think that the mindwipe affected Wes' feelings for Lilah -- I know that we've postulated that Wes wouldn't have gotten together with Lilah if not for the kidnapping, but are we sure about that? After all, W&H could have been separately targetting Wes, and it would have been natural for Lilah to have gotten involved with him. In an AU, Wes could have been separated from the rest of the FG even if there hadn't been a Conner.
Well, I'm not going to get too invested in that theory -- I'll just wait to see what happens.
And I can't WAIT til next week! I loved the exchange between Wes and his father over Lilah. "Ok, lets talk about me. The last girlfriend I had, I had to chop up into little pieces because a higher being saw fit to stick a prong in her neck." "I don't need your sarcasm." Another one of those classic moments dipped deep into the history of the show. And here Joss was making a big deal about how they were going to do less of that this season. This episode was a goldmine of historical references.
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Post by DaveCrenshaw on Nov 13, 2003 6:28:16 GMT -5
Roger Moore was english but Sean Connory was a Scot and Pierce Brosnan was Irish. And Timothy Dalton....well he was jsut bad. Proves they could do far worse than looking to the colonies. Vlad I liked Timothy Dalton. And his first outing as James Bond, The Living Daylights, was the highest-grossing Bond film short of the Pierce Brosnan era. Ok, License to Kill stunk, but that was on the writers, not on Dalton. Frankly, Roger Moore was the worst in my opinion, always mugging for the camera, never getting his hair mussed ....
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Post by DaveCrenshaw on Nov 13, 2003 6:34:02 GMT -5
Wesley is just such a great character and Alexis such a good actor...and Drew Goddard such a good writer...this ep is at least my second favorite of the season and I might have to watch Hellbound again (what a tragedy) to make sure it still holds position the first. What was not to like...Spike was great - so many good lines and scenes - loved the elevator scene with Eve, the confrontation(?) with Wes's semi-father about their previous meeting, the whole robot sex thing...and his knockout punch in Gunn's behalf. I loved that they have finally (I think) made peace and trust between Angel and Wes now. As soon as semi-father started chatting about the books being unsafe, I knew he was going to do something bad...so that was unusual - as Dave said, it isn't often they give away sometihng like that. I didn't know Wesley would 'kill' his father, so that makes up for it...and I didn't clue in that he was a robot/android Oh! I have been whining a bit that tough Wesley seemed gone, and making logical excuses for it - Connor gone, all changed, la di da...but hooray! Was proven wrong in the Matrixy scene at the beginning. Everyone has covered all the points, I just am very satisfied with tonight's episode. Very. I'm with you, Patti. While I was a bit dissapointed at how much they telegraphed that Dad was a bad guy before he ever hit Wesley, the final scene on the roof more than made up for it. I sort of expected that Wesley would be forced to shoot his father, but I was completely floored by the moment it happened -- when his father grabbed Fred and suddenly discussion over, six rounds to the chest without blinking. Whoa. As for Dad being a robot, well, I can't say I saw it coming, but there was a part of me that sort of wanted it to end that way for Wesley, so I can't say I was surprised by that. However, while it was what I was hoping for, it wasn't what I was expecting in that case (so in that sense, I was surprised, albeit pleasantly so) -- and I'm glad that was the direction they chose.
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Post by DaveCrenshaw on Nov 13, 2003 6:37:52 GMT -5
Lorne mentioned Louis Gossett Jr. when he first appeared in this ep...and a rather snarky reference to Iron Eagle II was slipped in. The Eastwood/Burton film is "Where Eagles Dare" and is totally different (not to mention FAR superior to any of the Iron Eagle films). The first Iron Eagle is actually halfway decent, to be fair...the sequels, however, got progressively worse. I never said what they were, though, did I? Short version is an aging fighter jock teaching a young punk the ropes. Sort of a Top Gun coming of age story. The original, as I've said, was actually okay. Iron Eagle III is just unbelievably bad. I lost about an hour and a half of my life watching it...on the other hand, I check it out whenever I run past it because it's so unintentionally funny. Maybe I shouldn't be so hard on it based on that. I recommend it to friends just so they can see how terrible it is. I've seen Iron Eagle and Iron Eagle III, and thought they were both horrible. Guess it's the military guy in me who just can't buy off on a teenage kid flying an F-16 like a pro, just because he's a member of a flying club and has his tape-deck loaded with Journey songs. It was the Air Force's attempt at a Top Gun of their very own, and didn't measure up. Didn't warrant a sequel -- or a third film. But you're right that the second and third were really bad. I only saw the third one because it was in our video library on the ship, so I had to air it and other testosterone-charged films on a regular basis for the viewing of the crew. Can you believe they also made an Iron Eagle IV? They refused to give up on that horrid franchise.
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Post by DaveCrenshaw on Nov 13, 2003 6:43:38 GMT -5
Does anyone online know for sure if there is a new episode on Nov. 26th? I saw on Slayage that there is one given for that date, but they don't have the date up at City of Angel yet, - not asking for spoilage, just wondering when repeats are going to start? Historically, it's been about mid-December (Christmas season) that the Winter re-run season starts, and it runs for about a month, until mid- to late-January. Buffy and Angel always operated on a similar schedule that way.
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Post by DaveCrenshaw on Nov 13, 2003 6:50:06 GMT -5
Oh. . .my. . .goddess. . . . Incredible. Sorry. . .hormones raging out of control, here. I've got an all-new Buffyverse crush - Wes just passed up Spike, and I didn't think that was *ever* gonna happen. Sigh - I was among those yelling at the TV when Knoxious interrupted Wesley's confession. And I'm so disappointed in my Fred - it should have been, no, thanks Knox, but Wes will drive me home. AFTER we finish our conversation. Although. . .I worry that someone who'll kill for her isn't exactly what she's looking for right now. I'm personally torn between being incredibly moved and incredibly horrified that he didn't even hesitate to shoot his own father for Fred. Wow. And I gotta get me some of that Alexis Denisof. Only, there's no way I can compete with Alyson. I think Fred knows now. I just think she was in shock still by it all; all those years of standing shoulder-to-shoulder with Wes, and not knowing. I think she was blown away, feeling like a blind idiot. Hence, she was a bit muddled when Knox came up. Fred still suffers from a lack of real grounding. She knows she's a nerd and therefore doesn't believe she's attractive to the male populus. So when a guy shows even the teensiest interest in her, she goes in with both feet, excited that someone actually noticed her (spending a lot of time around Cordelia didn't help, since she felt like Cordy eclipsed her). Hence we have her infatuation with Angel, her relationship with Gunn, and now her puppy-dog eyes over Knox. I think she's always been a little interested in Wesley (displayed by her dismay when she found out about Wes and Lilah), but wrote it off figuring Wesley wasn't interested in her. Wes' relationship with Lilah didn't help either; I'm sure Fred probably thought there's no way she could follow in Lilah's footsteps. If she only knew the times that Lilah tried to be Fred just to turn Wesley on, I think Fred would have an aneurism trying to process that.
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Post by DaveCrenshaw on Nov 13, 2003 6:52:00 GMT -5
Don't forget Adam was part demon. Maybe the parts don't stick together as well when you throw that into the mix... Yeah, I guess Adam was just as advanced, only differently so. He had a different intended purpose. And a lot more difficulty getting through airport security.
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