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Post by Shan on Nov 13, 2003 1:38:50 GMT -5
...It appears we have ourselves a new seasonal arc, as Angel and Co. try to figure out who these cyborgs are. Shades of Adam; I'm surprised there wasn't any comment on how much more advanced these guys were than the Initiative's attempt at the same sort of thing not so long ago. Never mind that Ted, April and the Buffybot were even more advanced than Adam (at least in that they could pass for human)... Don't forget Adam was part demon. Maybe the parts don't stick together as well when you throw that into the mix...
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Post by Shan on Nov 13, 2003 1:41:15 GMT -5
...Want to see Spike and Wes bond. Want to see those two energy sources ignite at the same time, on screen. ...What can I say? the pleasure, the pain. ahh.. . I won't be sleeping early tonight. Who's been reading too much slashfic then?
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Post by Rachael on Nov 13, 2003 1:43:08 GMT -5
You said it, Sister. Although nothing will take the place of Blondie-Bear, Wes is just a half-step behind him. I just wish I could have seen him more clearly, I really wanted to see the expressions on his face. And as gross as this sounds, the vomiting was an incredibly realistic reaction to what he had just done. Fabulous acting on AD's part. You know, he *emptied the gun* into daddybot. Not just one shot, but for Fred he'll just make very very sure the guy menacing her is quite dead. And I'm wondering if the talk of patricide/matricide by our vampires at the end wasn't entirely for laughs. Wes made a point of saying how it wasn't the same situation - but at least in the case of Angel, wasn't it, kinda? Angel had years of similar issues with his father, and soulless or not, that's probably a key reason why he killed him after he became a vampire. Wes, as I said, emptied the gun into the thing he thought was his father. A bit of overkill, if you ask me. Reflecting maybe years of pent-up frustration and rage, and finally he was given an excuse to un-pent.
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Post by Shan on Nov 13, 2003 1:45:35 GMT -5
An American James Bond? Not sure the Brits would go for it. I think they're pretty protective of their superspy. Well, George Lazenby was Australian, I think. It could happen.
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Post by RAKSHA on Nov 13, 2003 1:45:38 GMT -5
What a lovely episode! The handsome Mr. Denisof was in fine form today, acting up a storm in an understated but intense way!
Friends betraying friends, as in Angel's bitter memory of Wesley's reluctant treachery in Season 3. Sons betraying fathers, as in Wesley's embarrassing his father by letting him down and then apparently shooting him several times point-blank because of his 'father's implied threat to Fred, not to mention Angel's memory of murdering his own father. Fathers betraying sons, as in Roger's apparent betrayal of his son. But some bonds still hold. Wesley will not betray Angel a second time (or a first in his own mind); and his love for Fred is a lot stronger than his allegiance to his father. Angel has some doubts about Wesley, but still sticks up for him to Eve, saying that Wesley did what he thought he had to do to save Connor.
Spike's line about sex with robots being more common than you might think was a scream.
Other Spikisms & bits: Coming off as a clown in the first few minutes, Spike finally showed some brains in his confrontation with Eve in the elevator. I don't buy Eve's implication that the Senior Partners meant the amulet for Spikey all along; because I think she would do anything to isolate Angel from allies and friends, and that includes Spike.
Spike showed some oomph in the fight scene, saved Gunn with a lot of effort. Spike also seemed to be genuinely making efforts to be nice to Wesley at the end, after lightly teasing him earlier in the episode. I was surprised that he chimed in about killing his mother though; thought that was kind of a private subject in Spike's memory that he wouldn't talk about so lightly.
I was sorry to see that the lovely friendship carefully set up between Spike and Fred appears to be history.
If Wesley's true father was as nasty, cold and unloving as the cyborg impersonator, it's a wonder Wesley didn't grow up to be a serial killer, and no wonder he's so repressed! But this episode shows that Wesley is still a very tough guy. What a great opening scene with Wes doing great James Bond moves! And that confrontation with his father on the roof, as Wes shot his 'father' coldly the moment Fred was imperilled...then threw up, poor guy.
Fred CAN'T be as oblivious as she seemed tonight to Wes' obvious love for her! Why the heck didn't she say "NOT NOW, KNOX" as Knox, who is still puppyish, came bouncing up just as Wesley told her that he'd killed his 'father' without hesitation because Fred was in danger.
Fred has also become much tougher, stronger; but more oblivious to certain things that are in front of her pretty little nose in the process.
Great episode!
[glow=red,2,300]GAIL [/glow] I finally realized why the potential and increasingly likely pairing of Knox and Fred bothers me.
Knox seems as nice as any guy who ever sold his soul to W&H, he's Fred's intellectual equal or very close to it, and obviously crazy about her. Not bad looking, and puppyishly endearing. (wouldn't you hate to be in the lab with just Fred and Knox when they go into hot theorizing and/or research mode - they both bounce into hyperspace. They're like the Nerd Trio in BUFFY before Warren went postal, only much nicer and with megabucks).
But there's no indication that Knox has ever been tested. He's young and rather fresh in outlook and life experience. Fred has been tested - repeatedly - gone to the edge of the knife and back, as has Wesley, Angel, Gunn, Spike and even Lorne. Knox isn't worthy of her yet. Maybe she finds that appealing; but there's an odd distance between them.
Knox reminds me a little bit of Wesley during Season 4 of BUFFY - smart, rather full of himself, awkward with females, with minimal life experience. Only he acts as if he had decent parents, not a father who only valued him as a walking status indicator, so Knox isn't as pompous as Wes was in S4 of BUFFY....[glow=purple,2,300]GAIL [/glow]
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Post by makd on Nov 13, 2003 1:51:50 GMT -5
Who's been reading too much slashfic then? Ahem. Actually, not THAT much fanfic, and I did read Jenny's series, but.... I didn't mean igniting THAT way - I meant that I wanted to see them in scenes together, and I wanted to see them fighting, and.... you know, with the swords and the other cool weapons.... in a sublimating, repressed homerotic way.... Never mind. When you're this deep in a hole, it makes sense to stop digging.
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Post by RAKSHA on Nov 13, 2003 1:54:41 GMT -5
You know, he *emptied the gun* into daddybot. Not just one shot, but for Fred he'll just make very very sure the guy menacing her is quite dead. And I'm wondering if the talk of patricide/matricide by our vampires at the end wasn't entirely for laughs. Wes made a point of saying how it wasn't the same situation - but at least in the case of Angel, wasn't it, kinda? Angel had years of similar issues with his father, and soulless or not, that's probably a key reason why he killed him after he became a vampire. Wes, as I said, emptied the gun into the thing he thought was his father. A bit of overkill, if you ask me. Reflecting maybe years of pent-up frustration and rage, and finally he was given an excuse to un-pent. Oh yes, Wesley definitely released years of frustration and pent-up rage when he emptied the gun into 'Father'. Angelus did the same thing with his fangs. But William's killing his newly vamped mother doesn't fit the pattern. William loved his mother, and she didn't seem to have consciously tried to control or contain him. She had encouraged William to find a worthy spouse, was very pleased at his interest in Cecily, and was very likely wishing he'd hurry up and get out of her hair and have a life.
Interesting that Spike speaks of killing his mother because she tried to 'shag' him. I thought Anne's 'shagging' overtures were more of an enraged bluff to hurt him, and that Spike killed her because he realized he had destroyed the essential Anne, the mother he loved so much, in trying to save her...[glow=purple,2,300]GAIL [/glow]
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Post by Rachael on Nov 13, 2003 2:00:05 GMT -5
Oh yes, Wesley definitely released years of frustration and pent-up rage when he emptied the gun into 'Father'. Angelus did the same thing with his fangs. But William's killing his newly vamped mother doesn't fit the pattern. William loved his mother, and she didn't seem to have consciously tried to control or contain him. She had encouraged William to find a worthy spouse, was very pleased at his interest in Cecily, and was very likely wishing he'd hurry up and get out of her hair and have a life.
Interesting that Spike speaks of killing his mother because she tried to 'shag' him. I thought Anne's 'shagging' overtures were more of an enraged bluff to hurt him, and that Spike killed her because he realized he had destroyed the essential Anne, the mother he loved so much, in trying to save her...[glow=purple,2,300]GAIL [/glow] Yeah, the Spike/mom incident doesn't follow the pattern - so probably was just being played for laughs. But Angel's little revelation. . .and the abrupt "yeah, really didn't think that one through" - sure he did, and that's exactly when he decided to stop making the analogy. When it became too accurate, and not very comforting.
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Post by Rachael on Nov 13, 2003 2:01:19 GMT -5
Night, all. Sleepy, and want to have lots of AD dreams tonight.
;D
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Post by Shan on Nov 13, 2003 2:01:59 GMT -5
Ahem. Actually, not THAT much fanfic, and I did read Jenny's series, but.... I didn't mean igniting THAT way - I meant that I wanted to see them in scenes together, and I wanted to see them fighting, and.... you know, with the swords and the other cool weapons.... in a sublimating, repressed homerotic way.... Never mind. When you're this deep in a hole, it makes sense to stop digging. You thought YOU were reading too much slashfic? Silly, I was talking about ME!
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Post by makd on Nov 13, 2003 2:04:38 GMT -5
Oh yes, Wesley definitely released years of frustration and pent-up rage when he emptied the gun into 'Father'. Angelus did the same thing with his fangs. But William's killing his newly vamped mother doesn't fit the pattern. William loved his mother, and she didn't seem to have consciously tried to control or contain him. She had encouraged William to find a worthy spouse, was very pleased at his interest in Cecily, and was very likely wishing he'd hurry up and get out of her hair and have a life.
Interesting that Spike speaks of killing his mother because she tried to 'shag' him. I thought Anne's 'shagging' overtures were more of an enraged bluff to hurt him, and that Spike killed her because he realized he had destroyed the essential Anne, the mother he loved so much, in trying to save her...[glow=purple,2,300]GAIL [/glow] This time, not there with you, Scooter. I thought, from LMPTM, that William's mum was quite aggressive in stating that she wanted to take Master Willie (Did I really call him that? The hour is late, and I am old.) to bed. He was repelled and disgusted, realized he'd created (by unleashing the demon) this monster, and killed her to release the horror that had been her, and then suffered for the next 123 years till he was freed by the parykote (spell?) stone and the session in Wood's garage. I mean, they were WAY too close in Fool for Love and the early scenes in LMPTM. Such a mama's boy is not created in a vacuum; the mama needs the boy. Pure Freud. feh.
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Post by makd on Nov 13, 2003 2:07:55 GMT -5
Yeah, the Spike/mom incident doesn't follow the pattern - so probably was just being played for laughs. But Angel's little revelation. . .and the abrupt "yeah, really didn't think that one through" - sure he did, and that's exactly when he decided to stop making the analogy. When it became too accurate, and not very comforting. I don't think Spike was playing it for laughs - Maybe Drew G. was. But, to me it seemed that our obnoxious Spike was trying to share some information with Wes, thinking it would help Wes, but it didn't. at all. Spike is still a bit out of it, I think....He's season 4-5 Spike one minute, then, the next minute, in the elevator, he's no way season 4-5. He's lucid and there's no snarking around. He's deadly serious. Only shows how much a mask the snarking is.
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Post by makd on Nov 13, 2003 2:09:04 GMT -5
okay; the sleep is coming fast now.
beddy-bye, and have fun on the board tonight.
What a great episode, and wonderful to share it with such a great bunch of people.
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Post by RAKSHA on Nov 13, 2003 2:11:17 GMT -5
You thought YOU were reading too much slashfic? Silly, I was talking about ME! Forget the homoerotic elements, can you just imagine how heteroerotic the sight of Wesley and Spike fighting a common enemy would be, Wes with guns, Spike with fists and fangs? Then add in Angel and Gunn on their side - you don't think I love ANGEL just for the superior writing and acting, do you?
Although Gunn should probably do some working out. Not that he's gained weight, but he's been doing too much lawyering. Never thought I'd see the day when Junior Watcher Head Boy bookish Wes takes on several cyborgs and doesn't get scratched, while macho tough-guy ex-streetfighter Gunn needs a ghost to save him from being throttled to death by one of those cyborgs.
Face it, ANGEL is a wonderful hunkfest with brains - and fangs! The thinking woman's hunkfest.... [glow=purple,2,300]GAIL[/glow]
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Post by Shan on Nov 13, 2003 2:20:39 GMT -5
I'm not sure about previous seasons, but in S5, Fred has made several comments to Wesley about being patronizing. In 5x01, it was about the run-on sentences. I'm tired and I can't remember, but I'm sure there was another one last week. Today, it was something like "Thanks, I'll take a gun, too, Wesley!" as he Matrix-rolls off with both of them for himself. And, later, when she tries to point out how patronizing his attitude was toward her ("I have to protect you! Ungh!") it sounded pretty pathetic. I realize this is no longer Buffyverse and there is no "grrl power" on Angel, but does it really have to be this bad? I want Electrogirl or something. Lilah. Evil Cordy. Shoe-bitca Cordy, even. Anybody. Is the "Me Tarzan/You Jane" routine an attempt to interject some sparkage between Fred and Wesley with the conflict it creates? Or are they trying to drive a wedge between them when Fred eventually tells Wes, "You obviously mean well, but you're a condescending pr*ck!" Speaking of wedges, Knox...I'm starting to think that Knox is a tool. His timing is monumentally inconvenient for any budding relationship development between Fred and Wesley. Supernaturally convenient interruptions keep happening. Another way of keeping the AI gang from re-connecting? Just a thought. Especially a thought since I don't think Knox was ever cleared by Lorne. Wake up, people! Knox is EVIL! Eve and Knox are like Glory and Ben! Have we ever seen them TOGETHER in the same scene? Shanno
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