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Post by makd on Nov 12, 2003 23:11:07 GMT -5
Rob:
Some questions/comments:
1. ITA - Godard (spelling) IS truly gold. Great stuff, and thank you for reminding us just why this episode snapped, crackled, and popped.
2. "The moment when he pulls that trigger without hesitation ranks with that series's finest moments." For me, the shooting match in the warehouse was just awesome. By the end of the episode, I just knew that Wesley was going to shoot his father. I thought it was going to be over Angel (see, Angel? Wes will not betray you again!), but I was surprised that it was over Fred.
Also - Angel's comments later - to Wesley - about his (Wes) commitment to what he believes to be the right thing to do. The incident gave Angel clarity into Wes that he hadn't had before.
3. Loved Spike's comments throughout : His deadpan retort to his prior behavior as Nasty Vampire; his exchange with Eve in the elevator (and yeah, she was watching him very closely throughout the ep.); the sex with a robot; the broken beaker; the report to Angel about the headboy; the having to concentrate to save Gunn (He's now saved Gunn's life, Fred's life, and Angel's life. Is Wes' next?). His attempt to comfort Wes, while pathetic and obnoxious, was clearly heartfelt, and I think was his way of saying to Wes - You think YOU got it bad? Let me tell you this one! -
4. Yes, I thought it odd that both Spike and Angel were "casual" about their parents' deaths. But, maybe that's how they were dealing with it at that time.
5. "I seriously need to spend some quality time with Eve in that elevator. Damn, she's a hottie." Guess there's gonna be a Buffycon in YOUR future?
6. I wonder, too, what W&H's plan is for Spike.
7. I missed the Iron Eagle reference. Was that the movie with Clint Eastwood and Richard Burton? Splainy?
8. "Overall, right up there with the best of the year, mainly because Alexis Denisof is their secret weapon, and they finally utilized him. The Wes plotline arrives!! " Yes, and I can so clearly see why he is their secret weapon. Personally, I would take very good care of him, were I 30 years younger. Or even 25.
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Post by Laura on Nov 12, 2003 23:16:41 GMT -5
It's not a mystery to me why this one was so good. Goddard = gold. He simply doesn't know how to write bad dialogue. Joss gives him the pivotal ones already...with good reason. 1. The moment when he pulls that trigger without hesitation ranks with that series's finest moments. 2. Terrific performances all around, especially from Alexis Denisof (obviously) and Roy Dotrice. I used to like Vincent's old man too. Does every father in the Jossverse have to be a difficult man? Makes for great drama, though. 3. Marsters, as always, made the most of what he was given...in my opinion, he and Andy Hallett handle comedy best among the cast. I particularly liked his effort to show compassion to Wesley, however clumsy it was. 4. Having said that, I don't care much for patricide being played for laughs. I guess they were trying to lighten the intensity of what we'd just seen, but...certain things just aren't funny. Both Spike and Angel take that far too seriously to speak of it in such a casual way. That didn't ring true to me, and is my only negative impression of the episode. That is not a criticism of the characters, just to make that clear. Just a qualm with the way the situation was treated. 5. I seriously need to spend some quality time with Eve in that elevator. Damn, she's a hottie. 6. One thing I found very clever: I was going to be annoyed that no mention was made of Giles...until I saw that Wesley's dad was also one of those Westworld types (kept waiting for one of them to say "draw....draw.....draw"). Naturally, being a cyborg, he wouldn't really know what was going on with the Council at the moment. 7. One would hope that everyone finally realizes that Spike is firmly on their side after saving Gunn. Slowly, but surely, he is joining the fold. Plus, he's got Eve's number (wish I had her number). She clearly has plans for Blondie. Wonder if they're sinister... 8. The Iron Eagle reference made me laugh. Iron Eagle III, for those who are interested, might be the most ridiculous movie ever made. There are worse films...but few are less realistic. 9. Last point: I like the character of Knox. I don't like him with Fred. Wes and Fred would be a perfectly natural match. Spike and Fred is a fascinating thought. Knox and Fred just isn't interesting to me. Overall, right up there with the best of the year, mainly because Alexis Denisof is their secret weapon, and they finally utilized him. The Wes plotline arrives!!
Interesting how Angel seems to have turned around from the beginning to the end of the episode. His conversation with Eve at the outset, when she's taunting Angel about whether he's wondering when Wes is going to betray him again "trying to do the right thing," the way he betrayed Angel over Conner, seemed to have been completed upended after Wesley saved Angel and restored his free will.
I mean, what could be more fundamental to "saving" someone than restoring that someone's "self" -- his free will? And Angel's observation to Wes when Wes was beating himself up at the end: "You do what you have to do to protect the people around you. You make the hard decisions, even if you have to make them alone."
That was what Wesley did when he took Conner -- he was trying to protect everyone -- Conner from his father, Angel from the horror of killing his son (or so Wes thought). Wes made a hard decision -- alone.
I know that Angel and Wes made peace with each other last season -- but I don't recall that they actually ever talked about what was done or why (I said that the other night, I think, but I don't remember the context).
This, I think, is finally Angel talking to Wes about what was done -- even though Wesley doesn't realize it yet. So -- more of the whole Conner situation is going to come out.
Also, I don't think that the mindwipe affected Wes' feelings for Lilah -- I know that we've postulated that Wes wouldn't have gotten together with Lilah if not for the kidnapping, but are we sure about that? After all, W&H could have been separately targetting Wes, and it would have been natural for Lilah to have gotten involved with him. In an AU, Wes could have been separated from the rest of the FG even if there hadn't been a Conner.
Well, I'm not going to get too invested in that theory -- I'll just wait to see what happens.
And I can't WAIT til next week!
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Post by Patti - S'cubie Cutie on Nov 12, 2003 23:18:48 GMT -5
It was pretty helpful to have re-watched Spin the Bottle last night. I thought the continuity factor from that episode to this one was pretty neat -- all about Wesley having been "headboy," and Spike's whole "when Percy was younger, he used to be known as 'headboy,'" and Angel's response "I already knew that."
I definitely think that AD should be in the running for the new James Bond now that Pierce Brosnan has announced he's giving up the Aston-Martin. What a great idea! Except NO! Want AD to stay Wesley! |
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Post by Vlad on Nov 12, 2003 23:20:57 GMT -5
Forgot to mention in my long post, love the fact that it looks like Fred is starting to get a clue how Wes feels. Now she has a decision to make -- Wes, or Knox. The plot thickens. Roger Moore was english but Sean Connory was a Scot and Pierce Brosnan was Irish. And Timothy Dalton....well he was jsut bad. Proves they could do far worse than looking to the colonies. Vlad |
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Post by Laura on Nov 12, 2003 23:21:22 GMT -5
<snip> Alexis Denisof is their secret weapon, and they finally utilized him. The Wes plotline arrives!! " Yes, and I can so clearly see why he is their secret weapon. Personally, I would take very good care of him, were I 30 years younger. Or even 25.  Hey -- let's make a pact with Dave -- we'll work on AD, and he can work on AH -- and then we'll all be happy! |
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Post by Laura on Nov 12, 2003 23:23:22 GMT -5
What a great idea! Except NO! Want AD to stay Wesley! |
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Post by Laura on Nov 12, 2003 23:25:16 GMT -5
<snip> And Timothy Dalton....well he was jsut bad. <snip> Vlad
Uh, Patti? Please chime in again here, I'm developing a bad case of "you." |
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Post by Patti - S'cubie Cutie on Nov 12, 2003 23:33:50 GMT -5
Wesley is just such a great character and Alexis such a good actor...and Drew Goddard such a good writer...this ep is at least my second favorite of the season and I might have to watch Hellbound again (what a tragedy) to make sure it still holds position the first.
What was not to like...Spike was great - so many good lines and scenes - loved the elevator scene with Eve, the confrontation(?) with Wes's semi-father about their previous meeting, the whole robot sex thing...and his knockout punch in Gunn's behalf.
I loved that they have finally (I think) made peace and trust between Angel and Wes now.
As soon as semi-father started chatting about the books being unsafe, I knew he was going to do something bad...so that was unusual - as Dave said, it isn't often they give away sometihng like that.
I didn't know Wesley would 'kill' his father, so that makes up for it...and I didn't clue in that he was a robot/android
Oh! I have been whining a bit that tough Wesley seemed gone, and making logical excuses for it - Connor gone, all changed, la di da...but hooray! Was proven wrong in the Matrixy scene at the beginning.
Everyone has covered all the points, I just am very satisfied with tonight's episode. Very.
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Post by Rob on Nov 12, 2003 23:40:39 GMT -5
Lorne mentioned Louis Gossett Jr. when he first appeared in this ep...and a rather snarky reference to Iron Eagle II was slipped in.
The Eastwood/Burton film is "Where Eagles Dare" and is totally different (not to mention FAR superior to any of the Iron Eagle films). The first Iron Eagle is actually halfway decent, to be fair...the sequels, however, got progressively worse.
I never said what they were, though, did I? Short version is an aging fighter jock teaching a young punk the ropes. Sort of a Top Gun coming of age story. The original, as I've said, was actually okay.
Iron Eagle III is just unbelievably bad. I lost about an hour and a half of my life watching it...on the other hand, I check it out whenever I run past it because it's so unintentionally funny. Maybe I shouldn't be so hard on it based on that. I recommend it to friends just so they can see how terrible it is.
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Post by Patti - S'cubie Cutie on Nov 12, 2003 23:56:55 GMT -5
Does anyone online know for sure if there is a new episode on Nov. 26th? I saw on Slayage that there is one given for that date, but they don't have the date up at City of Angel yet, - not asking for spoilage, just wondering when repeats are going to start?
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Post by Nan-S'cubie Mascot on Nov 13, 2003 0:28:33 GMT -5
Does anyone online know for sure if there is a new episode on Nov. 26th? I saw on Slayage that there is one given for that date, but they don't have the date up at City of Angel yet, - not asking for spoilage, just wondering when repeats are going to start? Dunno, but I hope we get through ep 11 before we go to reruns. That would be mid-December, I think. |
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Post by RAKSHA on Nov 13, 2003 0:56:56 GMT -5
Oh, that was awesome! I really do LOVE Wesley, and how he's grown since he first came to Sunnydale!
Yes, he has grown, but he still has unresolved issues with his father. And a "yay us" for figuring that something is going to have to come out about Connor and Wesley's involvement in kidnapping him.
Father (I really can't think of him as anything else, and, in this context, it fits -- right Nan?) kept cutting him down -- and Wes got frazzled by it initially -- but he came back strong!
And oh, he and Fred came thisclose to confessing -- damn that Knox!
I really liked Spike's interaction with Eve -- I'd been watching her watching him earlier in the ep -- so I was really pleased to see him call her on it. But now we've got some questions -- we've been saying for months that W&H gave the amulet to Angel, so we figured they wanted Angel to wear it -- and get crispy-fried. But now -- Eve has thrown that into doubt.
Okay -- more later -- now I want my Jack McCoy! ;D
Friends betraying friends, as in Angel's bitter memory of Wesley's reluctant treachery in Season 3. Sons betraying fathers, as in Wesley's embarrassing his father by letting him down and then apparently shooting him several times point-blank because of his 'father's implied threat to Fred, not to mention Angel's memory of murdering his own father. Fathers betraying sons, as in Roger's apparent betrayal of his son. But some bonds still hold. Wesley will not betray Angel a second time (or a first in his own mind); and his love for Fred is a lot stronger than his allegiance to his father. Angel has some doubts about Wesley, but still sticks up for him to Eve, saying that Wesley did what he thought he had to do to save Connor.
Spike's line about sex with robots being more common than you might think was a scream.
Other Spikisms & bits: Coming off as a clown in the first few minutes, Spike finally showed some brains in his confrontation with Eve in the elevator. I don't buy Eve's implication that the Senior Partners meant the amulet for Spikey all along; because I think she would do anything to isolate Angel from allies and friends, and that includes Spike.
Spike showed some oomph in the fight scene, saved Gunn with a lot of effort. Spike also seemed to be genuinely making efforts to be nice to Wesley at the end, after lightly teasing him earlier in the episode. I was surprised that he chimed in about killing his mother though; thought that was kind of a private subject in Spike's memory that he wouldn't talk about so lightly.
I was sorry to see that the lovely friendship carefully set up between Spike and Fred appears to be history.
If Wesley's true father was as nasty, cold and unloving as the cyborg impersonator, it's a wonder Wesley didn't grow up to be a serial killer, and no wonder he's so repressed! But this episode shows that Wesley is still a very tough guy. What a great opening scene with Wes doing great James Bond moves! And that confrontation with his father on the roof, as Wes shot his 'father' coldly the moment Fred was imperilled...then threw up, poor guy.
Fred CAN'T be as oblivious as she seemed tonight to Wes' obvious love for her! Why the heck didn't she say "NOT NOW, KNOX" as Knox, who is still puppyish, came bouncing up just as Wesley told her that he'd killed his 'father' without hesitation because Fred was in danger.
Fred has also become much tougher, stronger; but more oblivious to certain things that are in front of her pretty little nose in the process.
Great episode!
[glow=red,2,300]GAIL  [/glow] |
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Post by Rachael on Nov 13, 2003 1:13:35 GMT -5
Oh. . .my. . .goddess. . . . Incredible. Sorry. . .hormones raging out of control, here. I've got an all-new Buffyverse crush - Wes just passed up Spike, and I didn't think that was *ever* gonna happen. Sigh - I was among those yelling at the TV when Knoxious interrupted Wesley's confession. And I'm so disappointed in my Fred - it should have been, no, thanks Knox, but Wes will drive me home. AFTER we finish our conversation. Although. . .I worry that someone who'll kill for her isn't exactly what she's looking for right now. I'm personally torn between being incredibly moved and incredibly horrified that he didn't even hesitate to shoot his own father for Fred. Wow. And I gotta get me some of that Alexis Denisof. Only, there's no way I can compete with Alyson.  |
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Post by karalee on Nov 13, 2003 1:23:44 GMT -5
Oh. . .my. . .goddess. . . . Incredible. Sorry. . .hormones raging out of control, here. I've got an all-new Buffyverse crush - Wes just passed up Spike, and I didn't think that was *ever* gonna happen. Sigh - I was among those yelling at the TV when Knoxious interrupted Wesley's confession. And I'm so disappointed in my Fred - it should have been, no, thanks Knox, but Wes will drive me home. AFTER we finish our conversation. Although. . .I worry that someone who'll kill for her isn't exactly what she's looking for right now. I'm personally torn between being incredibly moved and incredibly horrified that he didn't even hesitate to shoot his own father for Fred. Wow. And I gotta get me some of that Alexis Denisof. Only, there's no way I can compete with Alyson. You said it, Sister. Although nothing will take the place of Blondie-Bear, Wes is just a half-step behind him. I just wish I could have seen him more clearly, I really wanted to see the expressions on his face. And as gross as this sounds, the vomiting was an incredibly realistic reaction to what he had just done. Fabulous acting on AD's part. |
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Post by makd on Nov 13, 2003 1:36:48 GMT -5
Dunno, but I hope we get through ep 11 before we go to reruns. That would be mid-December, I think. Here's my guestimate, based on what they used to do with Buffy : 5.8 = 11/19 11/26 - a re-run of Hellbound, Unleashed, or Lineage 5.9 = 12/3 5/10 = 12/10 5.11 - 12/17 Then, we'll have re-runs for the next five Wednesdays (which are Christmas Eve and New Year's Eve, January 7th, January 14th, January 21st, and January 28th) In other words, we'll see 1/2 of the season, then take a six week re-run cycle, then go to "all new" episodes, then they'll take another 3-5 weeks of re-runs right around Passover/Easter, then come back with a 5-6 week arc that brings us into early May, right?? Cause I remember last year, Angel ended two weeks before BtVS. I know if my guess is wrong, youall will correct it. And, man o man, I so am now hooked! Now, 1 week without a new episode is gonna kill me. Must send flowers to Drew Godard. Must send flowers to Drew Godard. Must send flowers to Drew Godard. Hence, he IS the ultimate Drew! |
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Hey -- let's make a pact with Dave -- we'll work on AD, and he can work on AH -- and then we'll all be happy!
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