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Post by Matthew on Apr 5, 2007 0:01:41 GMT -5
AWESOME! Hurley conned Sawyer! Huh. Hurley is wise. "If you're gonna be our leader, you need to do some damage control" "When Nikki and Paulo died, we all looked to you. Then you tried to steal the diamonds, but we all wanted to look to you" "Just for today, they can laugh, eat boar, and forget that they're totally screwed" ;D "I don't think Jack wanted it, either. Sucks for you, dude." Wise shaman Hurley. Even if he lied through his arse to do it. Looks like they wanted Jack to go and he didn't want to. Or something... Welll, it's more because of Locke that he can't go, but close enough. Apology. Well, Jack, you weren't much part of their tribe. "Even Juliet?" and we see Kate's heart break a tiny touch there, and her eyes turn greenish: "You know her better than I do" "Now we go back" Cassidy.. Yep, it was her that he set up the blind trust for. So she doesn't tell her Sawyer's name. One of the things I love, that they've NEVER let up on, are the neat freaky coincidences. Did you raid the houses for useful tools? Yay! Jack suggests the "take what we can find" thingie! Sayid is suspicious, thinking that Juliet is left behind as a plant. Dammit. and now I'm wondering about it too. Huh! Juliet flashbacks next week! And more Sayid in Torture mood!!! You weren't wondering that before? It'll be interesting to see how well Juliet makes it through a conversation with the human lie detector. Myself, and I know I'm in a wee little minority here, I think she's ultimately going to turn out to be on the Losties side. Mainly because if you consider the kind of person she was when she met the Mittelos Corporation and who she is now, I'm thinking the Others did something that hurt Juliet pretty badly. Yet it's not like she had the option to leave, either. Meaning I suspect it was in order to survive living with the Others that she became more cold, calculating and manipulative. And then she started interacting with Jack, who never had a hidden agenda and was honest with her about where she stood with him and why—not to mention how, even though he didn't particularly like her, he both lied in recanting what he'd said about her wanting to kill Ben and brokered a deal that saved her life simply because he thought it was the right thing to do. Not to mention his kindness after she'd been branded. In other words, he treated her like a person, not a pawn on a chessboard. And I think that's the kind of world she wants to live in and be part of, not Ben's unforgiving little gated community. So now that she has a choice, I believe she'll choose Jack's world over Ben's—and I think it'll turn out that way even if it's revealed she's beginning her stay there as Ben's mole. Plus there's Kate's flashback to consider. When she first laid eyes on Cassidy, the woman was running a con. I know I was half-expecting Cassidy to double-cross Kate for the reward money, and I've gotta believe the possibility was in the back of Kate's mind as well. Yet in the end, Cassidy ended up being worthy of Kate's trust. Maybe the same will be true of Juliet. Nicely stated! And I'm in the wee little minority with you. You give good reasoning for it. And she's gonna have to give up the lying and treating the information like it's a commodity that gives her exclusive powe....wait. This is the Lostaways she is joining. Since when do they have open and frank communication with each other, except when getting ready to kill people Poe-fashion, or after blowing something up? Never mind. ;D
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Post by Matthew on Apr 5, 2007 0:04:59 GMT -5
Murderers - with malice aforethought. Kate fits that definition. So does Sawyer. Nikki and Paolo did, too. *nods* gotcha. I keep forgetting that she murdered her slimeball steppish daddy, because of my Southern upbringing, where "He needed killin'" is a defense that can get you acquitted.
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Post by Matthew on Apr 5, 2007 0:08:16 GMT -5
Nope, it was Smokey. The rattling came in and went to the camera-shutter speed. See, now I'm thinking it was Smokey and the Bear. Oh, come on, you know I wasn't gonna just let that one just lie there. Heee!! I think that was pretty satisfying for Kate, eh? re the red? and you must die now. ;D Yeah, I think Kate was not too displeased with doing Juliet that "favor" at that moment...
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Post by Rob on Apr 5, 2007 0:55:35 GMT -5
Short, sweet thoughts, since I'm going to bed in precisely three minutes:
1. While I agree that Kate made some remarkably dumb decisions regarding her stepfather, the mitigating circumstances are such that I can't simply put her in the "bad person" camp. The man she murdered was an abusive sicko whose final act on Earth involved propositioning his stepdaughter.
That didn't make it right, of course; plenty of people grow up in abusive households without blowing anyone up. Victimized people might wish their abusers dead, but manage not to act upon those feelings. Kate is different because she doesn't have that moral governor.
On the other hand, I do believe in justifiable homocide in certain cases...and Kate's situation could easily be construed that way. Plus, the great majority of her actions aren't those of a ruthless, cold-blooded killer. In fact, most evidence indicates Kate's desire to do right by people who have done right by her.
So things aren't as black and white as the Others seem to think. Is my point. Anyway, who are they to judge between "good" and "bad?"
2. All that being said, I'd still trust Kate WAAAY before I would Juliet. That little I-know-more-than-you half smirk of hers is starting to wear on my nerves. Maybe she is on the side of the Losties...for now. But as another great J.J. Abrams character famously declared, her loyalties are...flexible. She'll turn on them in a second to further her own agenda.
3. Hurley may not be the most articulate or respected member of the tribe, but he continues to be the wisest. I think Sawyer is finally starting to realize that Hugo is far deeper than he appears. It's about friggin time.
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Post by Sara on Apr 5, 2007 8:26:37 GMT -5
The good folks at lost.cubit.net pointed out some fun little easter eggs: 1. Not only does the game of backgammon make a return appearance, but in the rec room Kate's held in we can also see in the background the game Mousetrap—which Locke mentioned long ago was his favorite. 2. Sawyer's reading "Watership Down" again. 3. The hat Kate's wearing says "cowboy up," a phrase Sawyer used a few episodes back while exhorting Karl to go after the woman he loves. 4. When Smokey has that awesome little face-off with Juliet it seems to have three "heads" as it approaches the fence, suggesting it might indeed be the "Cerberus" mentioned on the ultra-violet map Locke saw:
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Post by Sara on Apr 5, 2007 9:02:39 GMT -5
I don't think she started out that bad. But . . . I think it will be harder for her to shed her manipulating ways than she thinks. Plus, I'm not totally convinced that she's not running a very long, very deep-cover con job. Either for Benry, or else to try and unseat him. ... On the other hand, I still don't trust her right away. I think she's gonna keep on twisting and coniving for a while. This brings up something I was mulling over as I fell asleep last night: why would either Ben or Juliet be trying to con the Losties now? And I mean that question sincerely, not in a disparaging way: what purpose would it serve to plant Juliet among the Losties? The Losties certainly know about the Others now, and that they're not a bunch of barefoot savages. We know they've been able to come near the Losties' camp undetected and perhaps even have some way besides the cameras in the hatch of monitoring them remotely, as they appeared to know about Michael and his boat far enough in advance to be lying in wait for it. Between the dossiers they apparently have on all the survivors and the time both Ethan and Benry spent in their midst, there's probably not much the Others don't already know about the Losties—I can't imagine what further information they'd need that only a mole could provide. And if Ben knows anything about Sayid, it's that he won't stop digging until he believes he's gotten the truth from you—making trying to feed him misinformation a very low-percentage play at best. So I ask again: what purpose would a plant in the Losties' camp serve at this point? And if Juliet has her own agenda, as Lola astutely suggests, what might that be? A power play against Ben? I'd be immediately sold on the idea if Juliet hadn't seen the fireworks Locke created with his C-4—the only reason I can think of for Juliet to try and unseat Ben is to gain the ability to leave the island and return to her sister. Absent that, what other reason is there to bring the guy down? The only other thing I can come up with is revenge for some as-yet unknown (to us) crime Ben committed against her. Anyone else have any thoughts on this aspect? Finally, there's one other question that occurred to me—and it's one where the obvious answer points to Juliet indeed being part of some sort of con being pulled on the Losties: how on earth could Juliet have gotten Kate that far from the barracks in what appears to be a relatively short amount of time all by herself? And why bother with such a ruse to win Kate's trust when Juliet had to know that Jack would most likely see Juliet's being left behind as a sign she was no longer with the Others? And even if he didn't, chances were he still wasn't going to leave her to fend for herself, not after what they'd been through together. Back on the other hand, though, it's worth noting Juliet was essentially left alone with Sayid; if she is running some sort of con, she's gotta figure Sayid's the least likely person to believe a single word out of her mouth—the smart move would be to kill him and claim the Others did it. Actually, if she and Ben are working a plan together, why would Ben leave Sayid alive to figure it out? Questions, questions... so many questions.
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Post by Sara on Apr 5, 2007 10:41:55 GMT -5
Someone on another board brought up a plot point I'd forgotten about which could explain why Ben and/or Juliet would still be interested in the Losties: Aaron. While it seemed like the Others' interest in Aaron went away when they shifted their focus to Walt, you never know...
And one other stray thought rattling around in my gray matter: given how much information the Others appear to have obtained about all of the survivors, it strikes me that there's a very good chance Juliet knows Jack and Claire are half-siblings.
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Post by Karen on Apr 5, 2007 11:44:00 GMT -5
Someone on another board brought up a plot point I'd forgotten about which could explain why Ben and/or Juliet would still be interested in the Losties: Aaron. While it seemed like the Others' interest in Aaron went away when they shifted their focus to Walt, you never know... And one other stray thought rattling around in my gray matter: given how much information the Others appear to have obtained about all of the survivors, it strikes me that there's a very good chance Juliet knows Jack and Claire are half-siblings. That's a good thought! And it further reinforces my belief that Juliet has been - either coerced or voluntarily - charged with infiltrating their camp - and to steal Aaron is as good a reason or better to do that. Now she's got Jack and Kate at odds again and is firmly tied to Jack and will most likely be accepted in the Losties camp, unless Sayid succeeds in breaking her.....
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Post by Karen on Apr 5, 2007 11:55:08 GMT -5
And why bother with such a ruse to win Kate's trust when Juliet had to know that Jack would most likely see Juliet's being left behind as a sign she was no longer with the Others? And even if he didn't, chances were he still wasn't going to leave her to fend for herself, not after what they'd been through together. Questions, questions... so many questions. Yeah -every answer leads to about 10 questions. I was thinking about this in the shower this morning. I think the main reason she had herself handcuffed to Kate was to assure that Kate wouldn't kill her when she told her that Jack had seen her with Sawyer. I mean - Kate had to stop herself, because how would she be able to run with Juliet attached to her - unless she pulled a T-bag. I don't think Kate has that much ruthlessness in her, plus, Juliet was counting on Kate's 'guilty feelings' stopping her. She wanted that wedge driven between Jack and Kate - to keep them apart. Why, tho? Just so that Jack would turn to her? Yes, I think that was a big part of it - not because she lurves him, but so that she'd be accepted in his camp as one of them. To take Aaron? Or for some other reason? Whether or not she's working on her own? Would Benry had handcuffed them together if she hadn't been in on the ruse? Why would he have done that? Is that 10 more questions yet?
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Post by Karen on Apr 5, 2007 11:58:25 GMT -5
Speaking of Cerberus....
Cerberus
The last, and worst labor for Heracles to complete was to capture the dog Cerberus who guarded the gate to the underworld. First, he went to Eleusis where he would receive purification to go down to the Tartarus. When he reached there, Charon, the ferry man refused to ferry a live mortal across the river Styx. But Heracles threatened to wreck his boat and shoot him full of arrows, he changed his mind. As Heracles made his way down to the thrones to talk with Hades, he saw Theseus and Peirithous stuck to Hades’s bench being whipped by Furies. Heracles ripped Theseus free, but could do nothing for Peririthous. "Oh dear Heracles! What brings you to my kingdom?" Persephone asked Heracles when she saw him. "I would like to lend me your watch dog for a few days, if that is okay," Heracles answered as Persephone asked her husband whether he would grant Heracles permission. Hades saw nothing wrong with it as long as Heracles doesn’t use a club or arrows to tame him. Hades underestimated Heracles for while in his lion skin, he grabbed Cerberus with his strong hands and squeezed Cerberus’s throat till he fainted. Then he dragged Cerberus back up to Eurystheus. When Eurystheus saw it, he shuddered and told Heracles to bring Cerberus back to the Tartarus. Then he freed Heracles of his labors to go where he wanted.
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Post by Sara on Apr 5, 2007 13:10:34 GMT -5
And why bother with such a ruse to win Kate's trust when Juliet had to know that Jack would most likely see Juliet's being left behind as a sign she was no longer with the Others? And even if he didn't, chances were he still wasn't going to leave her to fend for herself, not after what they'd been through together. Questions, questions... so many questions. Yeah -every answer leads to about 10 questions. I was thinking about this in the shower this morning. I think the main reason she had herself handcuffed to Kate was to assure that Kate wouldn't kill her when she told her that Jack had seen her with Sawyer. I mean - Kate had to stop herself, because how would she be able to run with Juliet attached to her - unless she pulled a T-bag. I don't think Kate has that much ruthlessness in her, plus, Juliet was counting on Kate's 'guilty feelings' stopping her. She wanted that wedge driven between Jack and Kate - to keep them apart. Why, tho? Just so that Jack would turn to her? Yes, I think that was a big part of it - not because she lurves him, but so that she'd be accepted in his camp as one of them. To take Aaron? Or for some other reason? Whether or not she's working on her own? Would Benry had handcuffed them together if she hadn't been in on the ruse? Why would he have done that? Is that 10 more questions yet? I'm not sure I entirely agree with that, mostly because Juliet didn't need to drive that wedge between them: it was already there. In fact, by telling Kate why Jack was weird with her all Juliet really does is make it easier for Kate to begin making amends with Jack: if she knows exactly why he's mad, it becomes easier to make the right steps to start mending that rift, whereas if he's distant and broods in silence then they don't talk and nothing gets resolved. Myself, I think Juliet told Kate what Jack saw for a simpler reason: she has a thing for Jack. So I think part of it was revenge: Kate hurt Jack, so Juliet hurt Kate in return. And I suspect another part of it was about proving to Kate—and herself—that's she's better than Kate for Jack; what else could that little show of "I know Jack better than you" have been for? But from the little grin Kate sported when Juliet was done, I'd say Miss Austin suddenly realized exactly what Juliet's motive was in giving her the "you broke his heart" speech to begin with.
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Post by Karen on Apr 5, 2007 13:39:45 GMT -5
Yeah -every answer leads to about 10 questions. I was thinking about this in the shower this morning. I think the main reason she had herself handcuffed to Kate was to assure that Kate wouldn't kill her when she told her that Jack had seen her with Sawyer. I mean - Kate had to stop herself, because how would she be able to run with Juliet attached to her - unless she pulled a T-bag. I don't think Kate has that much ruthlessness in her, plus, Juliet was counting on Kate's 'guilty feelings' stopping her. She wanted that wedge driven between Jack and Kate - to keep them apart. Why, tho? Just so that Jack would turn to her? Yes, I think that was a big part of it - not because she lurves him, but so that she'd be accepted in his camp as one of them. To take Aaron? Or for some other reason? Whether or not she's working on her own? Would Benry had handcuffed them together if she hadn't been in on the ruse? Why would he have done that? Is that 10 more questions yet? I'm not sure I entirely agree with that, mostly because Juliet didn't need to drive that wedge between them: it was already there. In fact, by telling Kate why Jack was weird with her all Juliet really does is make it easier for Kate to begin making amends with Jack: if she knows exactly why he's mad, it becomes easier to make the right steps to start mending that rift, whereas if he's distant and broods in silence then they don't talk and nothing gets resolved. \\ I agree the wedge was already there and Juliet's actions brought it out in the open, which might lend to them mending the rift - and if it they do, then is it possible that was Juliet's intent in the first place? I don't see her saying that she knows Jack more than Kate does as proof that she wants him for herself. I just don't see the passion there, for some reason. I LOVED that little Mona Lisa smile of Kate's! And you could be right about the reason for it, although that doesn't mean that Kate is right in her assumption about Juliet's motives. And what, if anything, did the Hurley's con game with Sawyer have to do with the Kate/Juliet story?
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Post by Sara on Apr 5, 2007 13:57:04 GMT -5
I agree the wedge was already there and Juliet's actions brought it out in the open, which might lend to them mending the rift - and if it they do, then is it possible that was Juliet's intent in the first place? I don't see her saying that she knows Jack more than Kate does as proof that she wants him for herself. I just don't see the passion there, for some reason. The passion was more evident when Juliet told Kate she broke Jack's heart; I agree that during the "who knows more" conversation Juliet was much more low-key. But then, we haven't seen Juliet display much of anything in the way of emotion outside of her flashback scenes—I imagine she tries to keep everything she's feeling tucked away behind that poker face of hers, lest Ben use it to manipulate her. As for how the Hurley/Sawyer story does or doesn't relate to the Kate/Juliet story, you could say both were about one person tricking another into realizing there was greater benefit in cooperation than in going it alone. But I suspect any deeper parallels will depend on whether or not Juliet is running a more extensive con than just lying about the handcuffs.
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Post by jeff on Apr 5, 2007 18:07:37 GMT -5
ok, my questions are simple. Not deep in thought , just simple.
1. why couldnt smokey the monster go over the fence? I mean Kate, Sayid, Roussou, and Locke did.
2. why go back to the beach? If the others "left" then you have free freaking housing, with a barrier around it, and 1 person who knows all the ins and outs of the place. why not go get all the other losties and head right back to the compound and live a life of luxury for a freaking while. Why go back?
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Post by SpringSummers on Apr 5, 2007 18:56:32 GMT -5
I don't think she started out that bad. But . . . I think it will be harder for her to shed her manipulating ways than she thinks. Plus, I'm not totally convinced that she's not running a very long, very deep-cover con job. Either for Benry, or else to try and unseat him. ... On the other hand, I still don't trust her right away. I think she's gonna keep on twisting and coniving for a while. This brings up something I was mulling over as I fell asleep last night: why would either Ben or Juliet be trying to con the Losties now? And I mean that question sincerely, not in a disparaging way: what purpose would it serve to plant Juliet among the Losties? I dunno - but what purpose, has ANY of the stuff the Other have done to the Losties, served? I feel like the answer to your question is "it would continue to serve whatever purpose the Others have in their continuing and nasty pursuit of the Losties" . . . whatever that may be. Again - who knows what purpose a mole might serve? We have no idea about the Others general motivations, so it is impossible to figure out if a mole would further their still unknown and completely mysterious goals. Again, I can only ask: What purpose have any of the Others' negative and/or sneaky actions served? Yes, there was the "get Jack to help Ben" motive, but that doesn't even begin to explain all the stuff that the Others have done to them. Good questions. She does seem to be "up to something." I think it could be her "own agenda" (who knows what) or it could be part of the Others overall agenda (which is uhm . . . uh . . . who knows? Why do they want "the good ones?" Why have they done most of what they've done?) It's kinda impossible to make sense out of Juliette's decisions, not knowing what her overall goals may be. Maybe Sayid is a "good one" that the Others want, or they have other plans for him, to serve their ever-mysterious purposes.
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