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Post by Dalton on Sept 23, 2003 10:02:39 GMT -5
This is the big one that seems to have everyone going. It was for me a serious WTF moment as well.
Here's my take on where we stand and what happened, based on what we do know.
Apparently Angel made some sort of deal with Lilah to give Connor a normal life finally, one where he wasn't the son of two vampires and grew up in a hell dimension. Instead of being super-strong, he's now super smart.
Of course, this being Wolfram & Hart, they probably asked for sacrifice. So Angel sacrificed his own son to save him, he cut Connor's throat, but at the moment Connor would have died, history was changed (once again, with only Angel knowing what had truly transpired, i.e., "I Will Always Remember You").
No one seems to remember Connor (at least that's what appears, thanks to Fred's statement and everyone else's look of confusion), so Connor no longer played a role in bring Jasmine about. Which means Cordelia never had the affair with Connor that made her get pregneant in the first place.
But she is still in coma. So she apparently did get pregneant and bring forth Jasmine, that much is still in place in the timeline. Whether it was now immaculate conception that brought forth Jasmine or Cordy slept with Angel, Wesley, Gunn, Fred, Groo or some nameless, faceless life-support system for a penis is yet to be seen. The only thing that has changed is Connor was no longer a part of it.
It will also be interesting to see if Darla returns, considering she now has no reason to stake herself since she now never gave birth to a son. It will be fun to watch how things directly related to Connor will now be explained -- what things still happened but happened differently, what things never happened. Did Holtz come, and if so, did he take anything of Angel's to a hell dimension, for example.
Of course, I've also had the same thought about Dawn, how it's amazing that not one of those times that we know of Buffy sneaking out of the house to save the world -- i.e., the night she was grounded but snuck out to stop the Harvest -- Dawn didn't rat her out to mom and interfere with history. Somehow, Dawn was inserted in everyone's memories so they remember her being an active part of thier lives (Xander remembers Dawn having a crush on him, for example), but no one remembers the major events of their lives, i.e., the Harvest or Buffy's birthday night with Angel, being significantly altered because of Dawn's presence. Apparently, this is one girl who has yet to leave any real mark on the world. And also, apparently Connor has yet to do the same in his new life.
David Crenshaw
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Post by Dalton on Sept 23, 2003 10:03:10 GMT -5
Sue said: "GUNN AND THE PANTHER: Inquiring minds want to know. I'm going to go way out on a sci-fi limb and say that Gunn has been given some super-powers. I think he may now have an alter ego/secret identity which has some kind of panther-related (black, obviously) super abilities. I'm not sure why they would do that, but, it's just my guess."
That would be an interesting twist, and I guess Electra girl could have set the stage for something like that. Until her, did we have any character on Buffy OR Angel who had super powers from some comic book-like source? We had hellgods and demons and vampires and werewolves...ok, we did have the fish guys and I'm likely forgetting other such critters. If Gunn gets super powers, (and your idea is looking more likely to me as I think about it) Fred and Wes would be the only 'humans' left...and they both have these big brains and enormous knowledge...and Wes is Mr. Super Fighter now...so who will be their resident regular guy?
I hope they aren't going to bring Spike back as human, cause he's already done comic foil and helpless goofy guy....or if they do, I hope he can still fight like he has the last few episodes.
Patti T.
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Post by Dalton on Sept 23, 2003 10:08:33 GMT -5
Several people have asked about Gunn being taller. I didn't get the impression that he was really taller, but that he was walking a little taller, a little more confident.
Sort of like the Viagra ads where the guy starts Viagra and everyone says he looks different, tries to guess what it is. Of course, he's only just talked to the doctor, so it isn't as if the medicine has made him any different, but his new confidence is supposedly being projected.
That's what's going on with Gunn. He only looks taller.
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Post by Dalton on Sept 23, 2003 10:10:19 GMT -5
//As for Ellie, I know she sometimes gets wrapped up in something she calls real life. And for some reason, I think that might interfere with reading the 600 odd posts we have made in the last few hours. //
Geez, some people just really need to get their priorities in check. ;-)
David Crenshaw
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Post by Dalton on Sept 23, 2003 12:36:34 GMT -5
Lee said: "Now, Angel, on the other hand, was unselfishly motivated in both of his decisions. The first, with Buffy, was done so that she would live. I’m not saying this decision was completely unselfish but I think 98% of it was unselfishly motivated. He took on the burden of keeping this memory, this memory of what was the fulfillment of all his wishes. I’m sure some people will say I’m defending Angel because I’m a B/A ‘shipper but that’s not it. To me, it would have been selfishly motivated if HE also couldn’t hold the memory. Then I can see the argument that he was doing the same thing as Willow. Honestly, I cannot see any good that came out of his decision but maybe I’m just not seeing everything."
Lee, I am a Buffy/Spike shipper and I agree with your entire post. I only quoted the above part to say that I don't think your argument is because of you ok - peculiar - bent on this matter. ;-)
And stick to your guns. Angel was unselfish in his actions. He asked nothing for himself. No temples built, no love for himself. He asked that his son be given a better life, and that's all. Angel and Connor had already been the pawns of Jasmine - Connor should never have been born, he should not have had to grow up in a hell dimension and become a bratty insufferable ...ok, I didn't like him, but I loved Angel's love for him. Still do. Angel needs no 'retribution' for his action. He will get it every single day of his un-life. He no longer has a son. He has no one who belongs to him anymore.
Patti T.
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Post by Dalton on Sept 23, 2003 12:37:20 GMT -5
//At the rate we are posting there are just going to be times when those of us who actually have other lives (which is me only on rare occasions) just can't catch up. It seemed like the ep board had a pretty strict--please read before posting policy, but I'm going to understand when folks want to share their ideas without reading 10 previous pages of posts, even it does lead to repetition once in a while.//
I have to agree that I for one am not bothered generally by someone posting new things that are really old things. Especially when we're posting at a frenzied pace about a recent episode. And most of us here seem to be pretty good about choosing our words, saying things like "I was most moved by last night's episode when ...." When it's stuff being said like that, the same thought can be posted about a hundred times. I know I've done it and not cared if anyone else has, because there are times I want to share my thoughts while they're still my thoughts, rather than read through in the event someone else had a similiar thought so I can say "Ditto".
I guess the only time where it is nice is if someone isn't writing a longer thought on an episode, but instead merely posts something like, "Did anyone else notice that was Holden Webster giving Fred her tour?" and nothing else, when 500 people have already posted the exact same thought, thereby negating the question -- but again, we mostly seem to be pretty good at posting not that question but the statement, "How cool it was to see Holden Webster again," and not look like an idiot for asking a question already answered.
At least, that's my take on things
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Post by Dalton on Sept 23, 2003 12:37:55 GMT -5
Shannon said: "the ONLY thing that makes me feel better,(about James not being at the Toronto Con) is to read your blow by blow account, with all your funny comments, which make me feel like I was really there, and what it might have been like if he were at the convention here.
so thank you Patti, I really enjoyed your account, and it makes me feel better."
Thank YOU Shannon, knowing that people really enjoyed it makes the terrible job of being around James and then bravely describing it in detail somehow more tolerable... ;-)
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Post by Dalton on Sept 23, 2003 12:38:37 GMT -5
Being already spoiled, I went ahead and read #213 to see if what James read was a real spoiler or a badly written speculation. However, what I read in post #213 was neither, so apparently the moderators of the eppy board have deleted the offending post (as they are sometimes apt to do). Feel free to read #213 now -- no offensive material there. Now it just questions how everyone keeps managing to get around Sunnydale without an apparent vehicle or licensed driver (of which there are both, by the way).
David Crenshaw
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Post by Dalton on Sept 23, 2003 12:39:09 GMT -5
//I hope that the other members of Team Angel don't sign Perpetuity Contracts, or Angel will have more guilt to deal with. //
I wonder of that will be the case. Lilah said that Wolfram & Hart was being offered to Angel and the others because they earned it by stopping world peace. Lilah, on the other hand, didn't earn her (initial) position at W&H by stopping world peace, so to get on with them, she signed the standard pepetuity contract.
I wonder what Lindsey MacDonald is doing these days, and how his standard perpetuity contract plays into his situation, having quit Wolfram & Hart.
David Crenshaw
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Post by Dalton on Sept 23, 2003 12:39:43 GMT -5
Nan:
Will you still be reviewing The Matrix: Reloaded for ScoopMe? How pumped are you?
I cannot wait for this movie to come out and read your review/analysis/critique (and whatever the hell else people want to call it) on this movie.
-L :-)
Edited By Lee Hollins at 5/8/2003 3:34:00 PM.
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Post by Dalton on Sept 23, 2003 12:40:13 GMT -5
Gail said: "I wonder if Connor could have been physically abused in early childhood by Holtz; where the source of all that smoldering anger was...It doesn't excuse his complicity in the young girl's murder or his going postal, but it would help explain it."
Gail, I think we were told a bunch that Holtz treated Connor like a son, and Connor loved him very much. I think we also saw plenty of things that account for how easily he was manipulated, and his postal going. Like: >ul>
vampire nature inherent in him
grew up in hell
fought for each day of existence there (nickname:Destroyer)
lied to about parents 'lack of love' for him from first moment of comprehension seduction by evil/possessed girlfriend of vampire father
used to produce hellspawn
seduced into murder of innocent for 'good' of hellspawn
birth of child puts lover into coma
child is adult with death's head covered with maggots, who eats people
inability to see world in rose colored glasses everyone else is issued
forced to kill 'child' to save world from domination and father from death
coma of lover
total isolation from everyone else in world and possible guilt for causing chaos
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Post by Dalton on Sept 23, 2003 12:40:42 GMT -5
Patti:
How do you insert the bullet points in your post? I think that would definitely come in handy for some of my posts. Techno-moron that I am, I'm not sure how to do it.
Any help would be greatly appreciated!!
-L :-)
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Post by Dalton on Sept 23, 2003 12:41:16 GMT -5
Lee, I'd kind of lost that thought in all the hoo-hah about ScoopMe closing down. I s'pose I ought to drop Kim a post either
(1) and ask her if she still wants me to do it
or (2) say I'm not gonna do it.
Yes, I'm looking forward to the movie itself, though.
Nan Dibble
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Post by Dalton on Sept 23, 2003 12:41:46 GMT -5
This is in response to #49 Even MORE thoughts on Angel Posted on 5/8/2003 9:38:46 AM By Lee Hollins Which is somewhat long and therefore I'm not quoting it.
But I do agree with Lee. To me, we aren't as defined by our actions as by our intentions. Biblically, that's what we're always told that God is looking for -- a good heart. He's more impressed by the widow who tithes two cents -- all she has -- than the rich man who can afford to give thousands and it still be less than a proper tithe. Sure more can be done with the thousands for the church, but the widow made the bigger sacrifice. Her intentions were purer.
Angel's intentions are purer than Willow's because Willow was driven by her own guilt. Even when she wiped Buffy's memory of heaven (and everyone's memory of who they were), her intention was to fix the spell she had done that had sucked Buffy out of a good place, on account of she convinced herself Buffy was in a bad place mainly because she missed her friend.
When Angel chose to wipe Buffy's memory, if he were thinking about himself he'd have wanted to also lose the memory. And even then, it wasn't Buffy's memory he was thinking about but his own need to be strong to protect the world and to protect Buffy. He was worried about Buffy being hurt because he was rendered helpless. He tried for another alternative, and would have happily taken it, but this was the only choice he had. And he alone lives with the pain of knowing what could have been. He was driven by a true sense of self-sacrifice.
Also with Connor. He'd love to have his son at his side, but Connor's life was completetly screwed up. Angel wasn't trying to protect Connor from his own bad choices (that is, Connor's choices), but from the things that happened to him throughout his life that drove him to those choices. To many people used Connor for the wrong reasons, even before he was born, they always wanted him for his power or for the pain his loss would inflict on Angel, or any number of things, but never because they wanted to give Connor the things a child deserves. Well, Wesley only wanted to protect Connor when he thought Angel was going to kill him, so his intentions were good. But Holtz, through his hatred of Angel, did a whopping truck load of damage to Connor.
If Angel were motivated by his own desires, he could have asked that Connor be "fixed" but still his son, that he have the Connor he had in his perfect day dream. But he didn't -- he willingly gave up his son so that Connor could have had the life a kid should have, rather than the one that was thrust upon him. And he realized that Connor deserved a life where he wasn't the son of a vampire, soul or no soul.
He might have performed a similiar act to Willow, but his motivations were nobler.
David Crenshaw
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Post by Dalton on Sept 23, 2003 12:42:55 GMT -5
Lee, go to the website below and bookmark it. Anytime you want to do some html in your post, just check how. That's what I do. It's a very easy series of lessons and it has a search thingy and a table of contents, so its easy to find stuff. I was using an unordered list. I DID make a typo/mistake, put one of my karots backwards, and such, but most of the list came out right. Believe me, you don't have to be a techy to do this stuff, you just need to have a handy reference guide. I used this to do both my conference report and my course outline. www.mcli.dist.maricopa.edu/tut/lessons.html Patti T. |
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