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Post by ElleKC on Jan 7, 2005 17:26:46 GMT -5
I just wanted to make a suggestion to Vlad the Reviewer:
In your weekly character review, how about adding last (and first) names to the characters we know? The way the writer's work, the full names can be important.
Jack (Shepard) is the only one I can remember right now.
For everybody else, I really enjoy your comments
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Post by Patti - S'cubie Cutie on Jan 7, 2005 17:33:15 GMT -5
I just wanted to make a suggestion to Vlad the Reviewer: In your weekly character review, how about adding last (and first) names to the characters we know? The way the writer's work, the full names can be important. Jack (Shepard) is the only one I can remember right now. For everybody else, I really enjoy your comments Weird you should ask that today. He did just that in his latest review, which is for Raised by Another.
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Post by Queen E on Jan 7, 2005 17:33:51 GMT -5
I just wanted to make a suggestion to Vlad the Reviewer: In your weekly character review, how about adding last (and first) names to the characters we know? The way the writer's work, the full names can be important. Jack (Shepard) is the only one I can remember right now. For everybody else, I really enjoy your comments Welcome, Elle!
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Post by SpringSummers on Jan 7, 2005 18:50:39 GMT -5
Weird you should ask that today. He did just that in his latest review, which is for Raised by Another. What a strange coincidence! And WELCOME, ElleKC! Please join us any time in this discussion or any of the others!
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Post by leftylady on Jan 7, 2005 20:00:29 GMT -5
Thanks to Becky H for bringing over the original French lyrics and for your translation. How cool that we can add all these different dimensions to the series through the songs, tattooed lyrics and whatever.
Great job, Becky. I do come up with a slight variation on your 2nd verse.
La mer au ciel d'été confond Ses blancs moutons Avec les anges si purs La mer bergère d'azur Infinie
Song lyrics, being basically poetry, are difficult to translate since they twist phrasing even more than normal diffences in prose or conversational usage in another language. It took me some time untwisting the metaphors. Also "infinie" fem. adj has to modify the feminine "la mer" or "bergere". Based on "confondre" (verb, to confound, confuse, mix up) and "azur" (n. masc. "sky blue" or "sky"), this is what I came up with:
The sea confuses the white sheep of the summer sky With angels oh so pure. The sea, infinite shepherdess of the azure sky.
While losing some of the original rhythm of the French song, I personally like the sense of confusion, trickery, fooling from this version especially when contrasting the sea's reflections of the first verse. Reflecting and then fooling. What else does the Island do? I also like the idea of the infinity inherent in both the sky and sea in which one can become truly "Lost".
It's been years (many, many years) since my college days of "explication de texte" of French (and Spanish) literature. Who would have thought we'd one day be doing this on-line?
Have not had the chance to read everyone's comments so can't add too much else. Except ... Should we be checking Spring's basement to see if Spike has now been joined by Sayid? Come on, Spring, ya gotta share!!
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Post by Lola m on Jan 7, 2005 22:28:54 GMT -5
I can't take credit for this discovery, as I just read about it somewhere else, but it's very intriguing to ponder nonetheless: the number of the safety deposit box Kate was so desperate to break into was 815--which was also the flight number of the castaways' plane. Cue creepy music... Very creepy music. So maybe they are actually all on the little teeny plane and just think they crashed. Like that little teeny Enterprise on the Star Trek with the big cat. Um. That was too geeky a reference even for me. Never mind. Lola
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Post by Lola m on Jan 7, 2005 22:35:16 GMT -5
Thanks to Becky H for bringing over the original French lyrics and for your translation. How cool that we can add all these different dimensions to the series through the songs, tattooed lyrics and whatever. Great job, Becky. I do come up with a slight variation on your 2nd verse. La mer au ciel d'été confond Ses blancs moutons Avec les anges si purs La mer bergère d'azur Infinie Song lyrics, being basically poetry, are difficult to translate since they twist phrasing even more than normal diffences in prose or conversational usage in another language. It took me some time untwisting the metaphors. Also "infinie" fem. adj has to modify the feminine "la mer" or "bergere". Based on "confondre" (verb, to confound, confuse, mix up) and "azur" (n. masc. "sky blue" or "sky"), this is what I came up with: The sea confuses the white sheep of the summer sky With angels oh so pure. The sea, infinite shepherdess of the azure sky. While losing some of the original rhythm of the French song, I personally like the sense of confusion, trickery, fooling from this version especially when contrasting the sea's reflections of the first verse. Reflecting and then fooling. What else does the Island do? I also like the idea of the infinity inherent in both the sky and sea in which one can become truly "Lost". It's been years (many, many years) since my college days of "explication de texte" of French (and Spanish) literature. Who would have thought we'd one day be doing this on-line? Have not had the chance to read everyone's comments so can't add too much else. Except ... Should we be checking Spring's basement to see if Spike has now been joined by Sayid? Come on, Spring, ya gotta share!! Hmmmm. Confusion or trickery, the sea as an object of love, the sea “cradling”, reflections, rust or rustiness implied (like a big metal thing buried underground might rust). Wow. We’ve got a lot to think about. Now we need to take a look at the lyrics of the song that she wanted the adopting folks to sing to her baby, Catch a Falling Star, for clues. Lola
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Post by Nickim on Jan 8, 2005 12:42:29 GMT -5
Kate and Sawyer really click much more than Kate and Jack. They are much more similar. Which makes for more sparks, but both in a good and bad way. The main problem is that Kate keeps putting Jack on some kind of special "better than Sawyer (and me)" box and that keeps pushing her toward being harsher than she should be with Sawyer. None of which actually gets at the really important issue of why didn't they have Sawyer drop trou!!! I see no problem with the issue of going commando (another fine trait to share with Spike) 'cuz they could do a nice camera shot from, um, behind him. **gazes into distance for a bit**
Heck, they did it on NYPD Blue all the time! Eetah on all of this with a big side order of "wow" on the Locke and lock connection. Actually, it's not that unusual for Sawyer to offer a choice, but very few folks are coming at him that way. (Except my man Hurley!) They keep coming at him with threats and ultimatims. Yep. The whole Boone and Shannon dynamic is much more complex than I thought at first. And it looks like we'll be learning more about them in the next ep, if you can believe previews. Hawaii very much pretty. Lola This is why Lost should be on at 10pm Eastern, not 8.
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Post by Nickim on Jan 8, 2005 12:46:37 GMT -5
The way she said 'the man I loved' makes me hope strongly it wasn't her father she was talking about. She didn't say "the man I was in love with. I just got a "little girl thinking about her daddy" vibe when she was holding the plane, that the little plane is all she has left of him. She was the black sheep of the family, left out of the will and off the safe deposit box access list.
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Post by SpringSummers on Jan 8, 2005 18:25:59 GMT -5
Thanks to Becky H for bringing over the original French lyrics and for your translation. How cool that we can add all these different dimensions to the series through the songs, tattooed lyrics and whatever. Great job, Becky. I do come up with a slight variation on your 2nd verse. La mer au ciel d'été confond Ses blancs moutons Avec les anges si purs La mer bergère d'azur Infinie Song lyrics, being basically poetry, are difficult to translate since they twist phrasing even more than normal diffences in prose or conversational usage in another language. It took me some time untwisting the metaphors. Also "infinie" fem. adj has to modify the feminine "la mer" or "bergere". Based on "confondre" (verb, to confound, confuse, mix up) and "azur" (n. masc. "sky blue" or "sky"), this is what I came up with: The sea confuses the white sheep of the summer sky With angels oh so pure. The sea, infinite shepherdess of the azure sky. While losing some of the original rhythm of the French song, I personally like the sense of confusion, trickery, fooling from this version especially when contrasting the sea's reflections of the first verse. Reflecting and then fooling. What else does the Island do? I also like the idea of the infinity inherent in both the sky and sea in which one can become truly "Lost". It's been years (many, many years) since my college days of "explication de texte" of French (and Spanish) literature. Who would have thought we'd one day be doing this on-line? Have not had the chance to read everyone's comments so can't add too much else. Except ... Should we be checking Spring's basement to see if Spike has now been joined by Sayid? Come on, Spring, ya gotta share!! Thanks for the further translation stuff. I love the info people have shared here. Leftylady, information is for sharing, see? Other things, no so much.
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Post by Becky H on Jan 9, 2005 10:40:44 GMT -5
Thanks to Becky H for bringing over the original French lyrics and for your translation. How cool that we can add all these different dimensions to the series through the songs, tattooed lyrics and whatever. Great job, Becky. I do come up with a slight variation on your 2nd verse. La mer au ciel d'été confond Ses blancs moutons Avec les anges si purs La mer bergère d'azur Infinie Song lyrics, being basically poetry, are difficult to translate since they twist phrasing even more than normal diffences in prose or conversational usage in another language. It took me some time untwisting the metaphors. Also "infinie" fem. adj has to modify the feminine "la mer" or "bergere". Based on "confondre" (verb, to confound, confuse, mix up) and "azur" (n. masc. "sky blue" or "sky"), this is what I came up with: The sea confuses the white sheep of the summer sky With angels oh so pure. The sea, infinite shepherdess of the azure sky. While losing some of the original rhythm of the French song, I personally like the sense of confusion, trickery, fooling from this version especially when contrasting the sea's reflections of the first verse. Reflecting and then fooling. What else does the Island do? I also like the idea of the infinity inherent in both the sky and sea in which one can become truly "Lost". It's been years (many, many years) since my college days of "explication de texte" of French (and Spanish) literature. Who would have thought we'd one day be doing this on-line? Have not had the chance to read everyone's comments so can't add too much else. Except ... Should we be checking Spring's basement to see if Spike has now been joined by Sayid? Come on, Spring, ya gotta share!! I like your translation, too, but I'm still thinking azure refers to the sea rather than the sky. But that's one of the fun things about the ambiguity of these verses. My goal was to do as simple and close a translation as possible rather than a literary one because we yet don't know how these words are going to be used. And you said the words! Explication de texte! Grr! Argh! One of my worst grad school experiences at Vanderbilt was literally pulling a poem out of a hat and having 24 hours to prepare an explication to be delivered to the director of the grad program, the chair of the department, and the director of the Baudelaire Center. So, of course, whose poem do I pull? Baudelaire! I can still remember the knots in my stomach...
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Post by havoc on Jan 9, 2005 19:13:17 GMT -5
I've been pretty busy lately dealing with car stuff and an ice storm but, since we had power, I was able to watch this episode. I can help with the French song. The English version that Karen found, Beyond the Sea, is based on a French song from the 40's by Charles Trenet called simply La Mer and the lyrics are very different. I'll get to that in a minute but I also happen to have a French copy of Finding Nemo and so knew immediately what Shannon was talking about. Nemo was released in French theatres last December but I don't know for sure when the video was available; I do know that Europe often gets stuff released earlier than the States. Ok, the lyrics: In French, they're much more enigmatic than the English song. I'll give the French so you can compare it to Sayid's notes and then I'll give you a rough translation. La mer Qu'on voit danser le long des golfes clairs A des reflets d'argent La mer Des reflets changeants Sous la pluie
La mer au ciel d'été confond Ses blancs moutons Avec les anges si purs La mer bergère d'azur Infinie
Voyez Près des étangs Ces grands roseaux mouillés Voyez Ces oiseaux blancs Et ces maisons rouillées
La mer Les a bercés Le long des golfes clairs Et d'une chanson d'amour La mer A bercé mon coeur pour la vieThe sea That one sees dancing along the clear gulfs With silver reflections The sea The reflections changing Under the rain The sea Under a summer sky mixed with Its white sheep With the angels so pure The sea, shepherdess azure and Infinite See Close by the ponds These tall wet reeds See These white birds And these rusted (rust-colored?) houses The sea Cradled them Along the clear gulfs And with a song of love The sea Cradles my heart for life I'm going to suggest that it's important that they used the French version and not just because the notes were made by the Crazy French Lady. There are some interesting things going on in the French lyrics that just aren't conveyed by Beyond the Sea, (even though I like that song, too, Karen). Just FYI, Kevin Kline does a nice rendition of the French version in French Kiss. One other thing: I'm with Nicki on Kate's model plane being somehow connected to her father. Didn't Kate say at one point that her father was somehow military? Maybe he was shot down (or something similar) and she holds herself responsible. You heard it here first! I have been chasing this and other things down. I agree the French version is the one that has relevance; but, I would point out one possible exception to your translation that I have seen in my researching - where you translate "cradle" others translate "rocked" as in rocking one to sleep.. Just something of interest to throw out there.
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Post by havoc on Jan 9, 2005 19:54:13 GMT -5
OK. Well, Sayid is quickly becoming my favorite guy . . . I'm a sucker for the brainy engineering types, and when it comes combined with those dimples and those eyes and all the rest, well . . .whew. A plane in an envelope, huh? I missed the first 15 minutes and have to rewind the tape . .. be back in a widdle while. A plane in an envelope in a case at the bottom of an inland lagoon.. Watership .. Airship down. And not just down; but down right at the base of a waterfall beneath which lies at least two dead bodies. Think there are some things we can start tying up here. www.thebulletin.org/article.php?art_ofn=mar90danielssonDuring the 60s starting in 1966, the French were doing nuclear testing on the islands of Polynesia. This may well be the reason for the presence of French scientists on a remote island. Could be chem/bio or radiological testing. Which lends an answer for the existance of the possible underground structure found by Locke and Boone. The #5 tatoo on Jack has bothered me since ep 1. But then let's add "Strawberry Fields". #5 = Fiver, the leader of the band of Rabbits in Watership Down. Strawberry happens to be the name of a rabbit picked up along the way from another warren who joins the group in their travel to safer living quarters. I think that the more we look, the more ties we'll find to Watership. It's been a while since I have either read or watched Watership Down; but, it was a favorite of mine in middle school when I was working on the Kitt Williams project. I remember some things about the conditions in various warrens. In one case, a farmer was feeding the rabbits to fatten them up, then snaring them. In another, I vaguely remember poisoning. The general overtone was as much one of wildlife escaping the hands of men and impending evil. I've read elsewhere that the music from the French Woman's musicbox may have been "Bright Eyes" theme from Watership down. I have been thus far unable to make a determination as to credibility on this; but, it is an interesting notion. Jack was initially supposed to be killed off in the first few episodes; but, you can't kill Fiver off if he's the one that gets you to the new warren.. unless Fiver is multiple people. Fiver had an intuition about things - knowing that things were going to happen - which is what led to the rabbits leaving their warren to seek better grounds. Lock demonstrates this sort of intuition and the leadership skills we should see from Fiver - perhaps more than does Jack. Jack has led part of the group to the caves - another parallel. Fiver makes it to the new Warren only to realize they are going to need does in order to survive as a group. The group is then forced to venture out from their new home and find suitable does. Here, we have Jack finding the warren and getting there; but, he is still trying to get the rest of the rabbits to come along. The old home, the beach, is being flooded out and so we may see the rest of the group at the caves before long. Nature and the French tests seem to be our evils to be aware of here. This is a lot of thinking outloud; but, the more I think about it, the more parallels seem to crop up. My gut instiinct is that we haven't seen the last of the French woman or Claire. I also think we're going to find out soon what it is that Locke and Boone found. And it could have "Island of Dr. Moreau" overtones.. The French woman said "It killed them all", then that she did. That sounds like a scientist talking about experimentation. And we seem to have a lot of instances of accidental death in people's lives here. Just some raw stuff for everyone to chew on.
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Post by Nickim on Jan 10, 2005 18:21:10 GMT -5
Really cool ideas, Havoc.
I think I mentioned the bunker being a fallout shelter a while back.
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Post by leftylady on Jan 10, 2005 19:36:11 GMT -5
I like your translation, too, but I'm still thinking azure refers to the sea rather than the sky. But that's one of the fun things about the ambiguity of these verses. My goal was to do as simple and close a translation as possible rather than a literary one because we yet don't know how these words are going to be used. And you said the words! Explication de texte! Grr! Argh! One of my worst grad school experiences at Vanderbilt was literally pulling a poem out of a hat and having 24 hours to prepare an explication to be delivered to the director of the grad program, the chair of the department, and the director of the Baudelaire Center. So, of course, whose poem do I pull? Baudelaire! I can still remember the knots in my stomach... Relax, take a deep breath. We can have fun. This time there's NO GRADE involved!!! I'm still plugging for the masculine form "azur" as either the masculine noun for 1) the color skyblue or 2) blue sky (as in "the wild blue yonder") or the masculine adj. that would modify the masculine "le ciel". To modify either feminine "la mer" or "bergere", the adj would have to be "azure". Besides this left-brained logical approach, my right brain just likes the continuation of the pairing: first, the sea reflects the sky, then the sea transforms the sky's "wooly" clouds, and then the sea goes on to watch over the sky with all the associations of shepherd as also guardian and companion to the flock. As for what language "Que sera, sera" is, it works very well in Spanish. "(Lo) que sera, sera." I'm not so sure about the French construction. It's usually not that simple a phrase in French. The movie may have been based in Morocco, but keep in mind the close geographic and historical ties Spain has with Morocco. case in point: "Casablanca" is Spanish for "White House". Was the song really written for the movie? or was the English version written for the movie based on a pre-existing European song? This is often the case of pop songs in Europe ending up in another form in the US. "La Mer"/"Beyond the Sea" is just one example. Engelbert Humperdink's "Lonely is the Man Without Love" started out as an Italian recording by someone else. We need more research, and me with so little time right now.
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