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Post by Lola m on Jan 10, 2005 20:25:46 GMT -5
This is why Lost should be on at 10pm Eastern, not 8.
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Post by Lola m on Jan 10, 2005 20:28:03 GMT -5
Hmmmm. Confusion or trickery, the sea as an object of love, the sea “cradling”, reflections, rust or rustiness implied (like a big metal thing buried underground might rust). Wow. We’ve got a lot to think about. Now we need to take a look at the lyrics of the song that she wanted the adopting folks to sing to her baby, Catch a Falling Star, for clues. Lola Quoting myself, because all the cool kids are doing it. So, here are the lyrics to Catch a Falling Star. CHORUS Catch a falling star and put it in your pocket Never let it fade away Catch a falling star and put it in your pocket Save it for a rainy day For love may come and tap you on the shoulder some starless night Just in case you feel you want to hold her You'll have a pocketful of starlight CHORUS For love may come and tap you on the shoulder some starless night Just in case you feel you want to hold her You'll have a pocketful of starlight (Pocketful of starlight, hm,hm,hm,hm,hm,hm) CHORUS (Save it for a rainy, save it for a rainy, rainy, rainy, day) For when your troubles start multiplyin' and they just might It's easy to forget them without tryin' With just a pocketful of starlight CHORUS (Save it for a rainy day) Save it for a rainy day. Lola
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Post by Lola m on Jan 10, 2005 20:31:20 GMT -5
A plane in an envelope in a case at the bottom of an inland lagoon.. Watership .. Airship down. And not just down; but down right at the base of a waterfall beneath which lies at least two dead bodies. Think there are some things we can start tying up here. www.thebulletin.org/article.php?art_ofn=mar90danielssonDuring the 60s starting in 1966, the French were doing nuclear testing on the islands of Polynesia. This may well be the reason for the presence of French scientists on a remote island. Could be chem/bio or radiological testing. Which lends an answer for the existance of the possible underground structure found by Locke and Boone. The #5 tatoo on Jack has bothered me since ep 1. But then let's add "Strawberry Fields". #5 = Fiver, the leader of the band of Rabbits in Watership Down. Strawberry happens to be the name of a rabbit picked up along the way from another warren who joins the group in their travel to safer living quarters. I think that the more we look, the more ties we'll find to Watership. It's been a while since I have either read or watched Watership Down; but, it was a favorite of mine in middle school when I was working on the Kitt Williams project. I remember some things about the conditions in various warrens. In one case, a farmer was feeding the rabbits to fatten them up, then snaring them. In another, I vaguely remember poisoning. The general overtone was as much one of wildlife escaping the hands of men and impending evil. I've read elsewhere that the music from the French Woman's musicbox may have been "Bright Eyes" theme from Watership down. I have been thus far unable to make a determination as to credibility on this; but, it is an interesting notion. Jack was initially supposed to be killed off in the first few episodes; but, you can't kill Fiver off if he's the one that gets you to the new warren.. unless Fiver is multiple people. Fiver had an intuition about things - knowing that things were going to happen - which is what led to the rabbits leaving their warren to seek better grounds. Lock demonstrates this sort of intuition and the leadership skills we should see from Fiver - perhaps more than does Jack. Jack has led part of the group to the caves - another parallel. Fiver makes it to the new Warren only to realize they are going to need does in order to survive as a group. The group is then forced to venture out from their new home and find suitable does. Here, we have Jack finding the warren and getting there; but, he is still trying to get the rest of the rabbits to come along. The old home, the beach, is being flooded out and so we may see the rest of the group at the caves before long. Nature and the French tests seem to be our evils to be aware of here. This is a lot of thinking outloud; but, the more I think about it, the more parallels seem to crop up. My gut instiinct is that we haven't seen the last of the French woman or Claire. I also think we're going to find out soon what it is that Locke and Boone found. And it could have "Island of Dr. Moreau" overtones.. The French woman said "It killed them all", then that she did. That sounds like a scientist talking about experimentation. And we seem to have a lot of instances of accidental death in people's lives here. Just some raw stuff for everyone to chew on. They are definitely making a point of Watership Down, so I think it will turn out to have many similarities and clues for us. Those of you who have read it will need to make sure you provide info to those of us who have not (I grovel in shame and admit that I have not - I know, I know, everyone looks at me in shock). I'm getting quite an "Island of Dr. Moreau" vibe from several of the eps. Lola
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Post by Becky H on Jan 10, 2005 21:02:04 GMT -5
I have been chasing this and other things down. I agree the French version is the one that has relevance; but, I would point out one possible exception to your translation that I have seen in my researching - where you translate "cradle" others translate "rocked" as in rocking one to sleep.. Just something of interest to throw out there. Right there with you, scooter. I mentioned the ambiguity of translating bercer a few posts further on. French literally has maybe one-sixth of the vocabulary available in the latest OED. So many words have to do double duty that context and nuance become incredibly important. Also, I like your thoughts about Watership Down. I know I saw an article somewhere explicitly comparing the book to the show and, if I can track it down, I"ll post it.
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Post by Becky H on Jan 10, 2005 21:15:07 GMT -5
Relax, take a deep breath. We can have fun. This time there's NO GRADE involved!!! I'm still plugging for the masculine form "azur" as either the masculine noun for 1) the color skyblue or 2) blue sky (as in "the wild blue yonder") or the masculine adj. that would modify the masculine "le ciel". To modify either feminine "la mer" or "bergere", the adj would have to be "azure". Besides this left-brained logical approach, my right brain just likes the continuation of the pairing: first, the sea reflects the sky, then the sea transforms the sky's "wooly" clouds, and then the sea goes on to watch over the sky with all the associations of shepherd as also guardian and companion to the flock. As for what language "Que sera, sera" is, it works very well in Spanish. "(Lo) que sera, sera." I'm not so sure about the French construction. It's usually not that simple a phrase in French. Yikes, you should know better than to bring on bad explication flashbacks . If I were doing a literary translation, I'd definitely go with some of your imagery. But, as I said, I'm hesitant of putting too much of my own interpretation on it until we know what it means. There was a discussion on tvtome that pointed out, as well, that the notes weren't totally accurate transcriptions of the lyrics. For example, éternité replaced infinie. So, we'll just have to see. As for azur, I'd point out that when a color is used as a noun in French, it's in the masculine invariable form. Plus, I was probably subliminally thinking of la Côte d'Azur - where else do your thoughts turn on cold January days? And speaking of the funky things done in song lyrics, I'd always thought Que sera, sera actually was Spanish until I got to grad school and was informed that it was French. And because the people telling me this were my professors at Vanderbilt, who had so many degrees one simply addressed them as monsieur, I've been taking their word for it and teaching it to my own students (yep, teacher of French, that's what I do for a living until I finish my MLS) since then.
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Post by havoc on Jan 11, 2005 0:29:30 GMT -5
They are definitely making a point of Watership Down, so I think it will turn out to have many similarities and clues for us. Those of you who have read it will need to make sure you provide info to those of us who have not (I grovel in shame and admit that I have not - I know, I know, everyone looks at me in shock). I'm getting quite an "Island of Dr. Moreau" vibe from several of the eps. Lola I'm looking for a copy of the book as my 1st ed went up in smoke 4 years ago. Never replaced it. May be something I can do tomorrow at the used book store. Will see what I can add further after that; but, I personally am looking at Locke and Jack as Hazel and Fiver. They seem interchangeable for purposes of the show so far; but, that is the way I'm seeing it for the moment. Hazel ends up being the Chief rabbit in the new warren of Watership Down. I'm not sure if any of the religious or political structures from the different warrens have specific bearing; but, am considering it on what little there is to go on. So far there is little to go on to say the least. But there is the dissappearance of Claire that brings this into scope as far as what reaction we should expect based on Watership down vs what we've seen. I have to say, this part of the analysis bothers me because I'm not sure it melds with the reaction expectable on the Watership down ethic. May be debateable; but, I'd like to hear what others think in this regard. It bothers me; but, others may have further insight my memory is robbing me of at the moment.
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Post by Karen on Jan 11, 2005 0:40:37 GMT -5
I'm looking for a copy of the book as my 1st ed went up in smoke 4 years ago. Never replaced it. May be something I can do tomorrow at the used book store. Will see what I can add further after that; but, I personally am looking at Locke and Jack as Hazel and Fiver. They seem interchangeable for purposes of the show so far; but, that is the way I'm seeing it for the moment. Hazel ends up being the Chief rabbit in the new warren of Watership Down. I'm not sure if any of the religious or political structures from the different warrens have specific bearing; but, am considering it on what little there is to go on. So far there is little to go on to say the least. But there is the dissappearance of Claire that brings this into scope as far as what reaction we should expect based on Watership down vs what we've seen. I have to say, this part of the analysis bothers me because I'm not sure it melds with the reaction expectable on the Watership down ethic. May be debateable; but, I'd like to hear what others think in this regard. It bothers me; but, others may have further insight my memory is robbing me of at the moment. I haven't read the book, but I think it's safe to say that religion and faith and the wildly varied personalities are going to come into play. Just look at what we've seen of Rose so far - and her "faith" speech and prayer with Charlie. Everyone's got their something. Does it always have to all fall apart when the group is so varied?
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Post by havoc on Jan 11, 2005 0:42:21 GMT -5
Right there with you, scooter. I mentioned the ambiguity of translating bercer a few posts further on. French literally has maybe one-sixth of the vocabulary available in the latest OED. So many words have to do double duty that context and nuance become incredibly important. Also, I like your thoughts about Watership Down. I know I saw an article somewhere explicitly comparing the book to the show and, if I can track it down, I"ll post it. Yeah, I can't say I know French; but, I do know analysis. And I'm obsessive when it comes to detail hunting. French is rather opposite of a favorite language of mine - Greek. The two are polar opposites when it comes to clarity. Alas, it might not sound as nice in Greek.. Oh well lol. I'd like to see that article and compare notes. Might get interesting and be quite useful to hash through. Would be interesting to see if they deal with the trickster aspect of El-ahrairah. The translation of the name is Prince of a thousand enemies which I think is evident in the show as "the others". I don't think they've brought a Frith into it; but, in a Lord of the Flies fashion, the Black rock may be heading us down that road. Too many loose ends. I think we've all been saying that much.. too many.
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Post by havoc on Jan 11, 2005 0:51:40 GMT -5
I haven't read the book, but I think it's safe to say that religion and faith and the wildly varied personalities are going to come into play. Just look at what we've seen of Rose so far - and her "faith" speech and prayer with Charlie. Everyone's got their something. Does it always have to all fall apart when the group is so varied? The different warrens in the story had systems similar Communism, Fascism, even a Republic or Democracy of sorts in Watership down. This may get expressed as phases as the group goes through it's long term re-organization and prioritizations. The religious beliefs are largely the same from one warren to the next. They are all familiar largely with the same tales. The difference lies in how they approach the tales. One warren looks at it as true, one looks at the stories as just useful moralisms but otherwise fanciful fairytale-isms to be discarded beyond their shallow "secular" (if you will) use. One deals with the figures and stories as real; but, considers El-ahrairah as any rabbit who manages to accomplish some incredible act. This may be, again, expressed in phases as we are seeing with Charlie.. Gut instinct; but, the loose ends thing is a butt kicker.. again. lol Another interesting find - Art Garfunkle recorded Bright eyes..
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Post by Linda on Jan 11, 2005 2:45:42 GMT -5
They are definitely making a point of Watership Down, so I think it will turn out to have many similarities and clues for us. Those of you who have read it will need to make sure you provide info to those of us who have not (I grovel in shame and admit that I have not - I know, I know, everyone looks at me in shock). I'm getting quite an "Island of Dr. Moreau" vibe from several of the eps. Lola Yep, shocked! ;D Here is a summary of Watership Down that I am pulling from my rusty brain. Please feel free to correct me, since I haven't had time to track down my copy. (It's on my To Do list. ) That said, this is one of my favorite books. Watership Down really *is* about rabbits. They have their own language & legends. They have a hero/trickster god named El-ahrairah (somewhat similar to Brer Rabbit, IMO.) Throughout the book, they recount stories of his adventures for fun, comfort and inspiration. And in at least one instance, to help them face the darkness. The story begins in a peaceful rabbit warren in the countryside of England (Devon? Hampshire? Sorry. Damfino.) The warren is well-established, with a leader and a distinct pecking order. Such order is enforced by an organization of the larger and stronger rabbits, who routinely have first dibs on food and mates. (There is a rabbit-term for this group, but I can't remember what it is. OK, I'll stop with these "I forget" digressions. Mostly.) One of the rabbits has a premonition of impending disaster. His name is Fiver (so named for being the last and smallest of a litter.) Fiver is small and nervous and so is ignored by the Powers That Be of the warren. His brother Hazel, who is only marginally larger, though calmer and better regarded, is the only one who takes Fiver's premonition seriously. He does his best to convince the warren's Chief Rabbit that there is danger coming. IIRC, they almost listen to him until it becomes apparent that the only solution presented by Fiver's prophecy is to abandon their comfortable warren immediately. Destination unknowable. Except for a vague description by Fiver. Rabbits don't travel well in the open. When they become too afraid for too long, they become tharn (catatonic). Hazel and Fiver are only able to convince a few of the other rabbits to leave with them on this journey into the unknown. Off the top of my head, they are: Big Wig (an enforcer-rabbit, who seems to have too much of a sense of fairness to be a proper enforcer), Silver (who is somewhat looked down upon due to his silver fur), Blackberry (the smart one who also tells the best stories), Dandelion (the playful one who is the fastest runner in the warren), a rabbit even smaller than Fiver named Pip (I think), and four or five others whose names I don't remember. (My doppelganger has that memory, I guess.) The small group leaves against the wishes of the warren's leadership. They are forced to sneak out, and even then they are pursued by the warren's enforcers. Through Fiver's Sight, Hazel's leadership, Big Wig's muscle, Blackberry's smarts and the other rabbits' cooperation, they escape and make their way across very dangerous ground. Most of the danger is of the human-made sort. They are forced to cross roads and railroad tracks and streams and fields without a bolt hole to call their own. Eventually, they come across a group of unnaturally well-fed rabbits. Everyone except Fiver wants to settle down with them. However, these rabbits accept the food that humans give to them in exchange for their complaisance about the harvest of one or two of them every so often. Our heroes escape once they realize this, along with one of the new rabbits. Eventually, after many difficulties, they make it to Watership Down (this is the name of a hill). But the story is not over. Three (?) rabbits from the original warren later find them, telling of the horror that befell them. A farmer had decided to get rid of the rabbit population and gassed the entire warren. Most of their bolt-holes and escape routes were blocked beforehand. All of the others rabbits were killed. Everyone digs in to make their new home livable, but they cannot establish a true warren because none of the females came with them. Now they must find new females who are willing to join them. With much difficulty, and the help of a grouchy bird they cared for while it was unable to fly, they are able to free a couple of female pets from a human farm. But not without cost: Hazel is injured and then is captured by a child who lives there. The child eventually realizes that Hazel cannot be tamed, and is in fact dying in captivity. And so she (or he?) lets Hazel go. And the two female rabbits are not enough. They find another warren that seems to be overcrowded. But the warren is run by a rabbit who is stronger and fiercer and more oppressive than anyone they had ever known. As well as being arguably insane. General Woundwort has a powerful, disciplined group of enforcers, who keep the other rabbits under strict control. And General Woundwort rules his enforcers with intimidation backed by brute strength and fearlessness. Our heroes infiltrate the warren and convince some of the downtrodden rabbits to make a break for it. Of course, General Woundwort chases them. Through a combination of brilliant planning, luck, cooperation and daring, they escape. But the General will not (or cannot) give up and he eventually finds them and attacks Watership Down. They are forced to defend their home. Big climactic battle. *cough*Read the book*cough* Linda, who probably forgot some major details, so *cough*Read the book*cough*
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Post by Becky H on Jan 11, 2005 10:29:52 GMT -5
Yeah, I can't say I know French; but, I do know analysis. And I'm obsessive when it comes to detail hunting. French is rather opposite of a favorite language of mine - Greek. The two are polar opposites when it comes to clarity. Alas, it might not sound as nice in Greek.. Oh well lol. I'd like to see that article and compare notes. Might get interesting and be quite useful to hash through. Would be interesting to see if they deal with the trickster aspect of El-ahrairah. The translation of the name is Prince of a thousand enemies which I think is evident in the show as "the others". I don't think they've brought a Frith into it; but, in a Lord of the Flies fashion, the Black rock may be heading us down that road. Too many loose ends. I think we've all been saying that much.. too many. Well, I found the article but it wasn't as extensive as I'd remembered it to be. It does, however, make the point that Watership Down was very intentionally used so on with the analysis! "Lost" fans may have noticed Sawyer (Josh Holloway) reading Richard Adams' 1972 novel, Watership Down.
Show co-creator Damon Lindelof told the Philadelphia Inquirer the tale of a ragtag group of rabbits who band together to survive in a new home was used because "thematically it totally jives with everything we're trying to say in the show ... except with bunnies."
The book's characters include a fearless leader (like "Lost's" Jack), a pregnant hare (Claire), a go-to person with a sixth sense (Locke), a careless rebel (Sawyer) and a crafty hero (Sayid).
"My parents wouldn't let me see the (Down) cartoon because it was for grown-ups," Lindelof says. "Which, of course, was the birth of an obsession."
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Post by Sara on Jan 11, 2005 10:46:09 GMT -5
They are definitely making a point of Watership Down, so I think it will turn out to have many similarities and clues for us. Those of you who have read it will need to make sure you provide info to those of us who have not (I grovel in shame and admit that I have not - I know, I know, everyone looks at me in shock). I'm getting quite an "Island of Dr. Moreau" vibe from several of the eps. Lola No shock here--I haven't read it either. I caught snippets of the animated version when I was very young, and unfortunately they scared the crap out of me. Plus I've never been big on stories that are entirely about animal characters (although I wouldn't rule out that my WD experience was the cause of this aversion). So I'll be with you in relying on other people's info.
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Post by Nickim on Jan 11, 2005 10:46:51 GMT -5
They are definitely making a point of Watership Down, so I think it will turn out to have many similarities and clues for us. Those of you who have read it will need to make sure you provide info to those of us who have not (I grovel in shame and admit that I have not - I know, I know, everyone looks at me in shock). I'm getting quite an "Island of Dr. Moreau" vibe from several of the eps. Lola I read it, but it was in 4th grade, so I don't really remember much about it. Edit--I appreciate Linda's recap and Havoc's explanation of the political overtones, because I definitely didn't pick up on that in 4th grade!
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Post by Karen on Jan 11, 2005 11:05:43 GMT -5
The different warrens in the story had systems similar Communism, Fascism, even a Republic or Democracy of sorts in Watership down. This may get expressed as phases as the group goes through it's long term re-organization and prioritizations. The religious beliefs are largely the same from one warren to the next. They are all familiar largely with the same tales. The difference lies in how they approach the tales. One warren looks at it as true, one looks at the stories as just useful moralisms but otherwise fanciful fairytale-isms to be discarded beyond their shallow "secular" (if you will) use. One deals with the figures and stories as real; but, considers El-ahrairah as any rabbit who manages to accomplish some incredible act. This may be, again, expressed in phases as we are seeing with Charlie.. Gut instinct; but, the loose ends thing is a butt kicker.. again. lol Another interesting find - Art Garfunkle recorded Bright eyes.. Thanks, havoc, Linda and Becky. I can see the parallels being made. Art Garfunkle/Bright eyes - *whoosh* - explainey please, havoc?
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Post by Sara on Jan 11, 2005 11:11:15 GMT -5
Thanks, havoc, Linda and Becky. I can see the parallels being made. Art Garfunkle/Bright eyes - *whoosh* - explainey please, havoc? I can help you out--"Bright Eyes" is the musical theme of the Watership Down animated film; havoc said that in another discussion group they think "Bright Eyes" is what Rousseau's music box plays.
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