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Post by Spaced Out Looney on Dec 6, 2005 21:18:34 GMT -5
Dude--didn't we have almost this exact same issue come up on the Alias thread? And as I recall, you were willing to forgive Sloane for just about anything he did on Nadia's behalf--including the cold-blooded murder we watched him commit. Granted, Gordon Dean was a helluva lot worse a human being than the punk Ana killed. And nothing Ana does will ever bring her baby back, while Sloane's crime could very well end up saving his daughter's life. Exactly. That's the difference. It's huge, for me. And also, I've had dozens of episodes to get to like Sloane, even though I ultimately think he's an amoral, creepy bastard. Ana-Lucia has given me nothing to like...especially when you consider that if Vlad's right, then she planned and carried out a vengeance killing while being entrusted by her society to be...well, better than that, on some level. Police are only human, but they're entrusted with a greater responsibility and therefore I do expect more from her than I would from the average person. I was saying to Dave just the other day that the reason SpyDaddy is such a compelling and scary character is that he's not actually any different from your average father - but he has many more resources at his disposal, and doesn't have any moral qualms about using all of them to protect the people he loves. Using them to exact vengeance? Even one more step over the edge, for me. See this here highlights my basic problem with the original argument: it's too cookie-cutter, writing-by-numbers. Different people have different reactions to different characters for different reasons. Seems way to simplistic to introduce some sort of formula.
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Post by fish1941 on Dec 7, 2005 17:26:05 GMT -5
This is such a perfect description of Ana-Lucia's situation during those last minutes of the episode. And all of those aspects of herself are personified by the other characters that surround her.
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Post by Linda on Dec 12, 2005 7:54:01 GMT -5
**nods** First her spirit leaves (Mr Eko), then her heart (Bernard), then finally her mind and it's rationalizations (Libby). Get rid of the witnesses (Jin and Michael) and she's just left with herself (Sayid). And she can't face that, so she slides into self destruct mode. Wants him to kill her. 'Cuz murder turned inward is . . . . #clap# Yay Lola! I lurve aspecting. Oh, wait. Linda, muh-brained
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Post by Linda on Dec 12, 2005 8:05:25 GMT -5
Hi all! Excellent posting! **nods a lot** I've been enjoying the episodes and the posts here, but my brain is on "muh" mode of late. So I don't have much to add except Hawaii pretty. Oh, and I was hoping that someone whose WorldLit experience was a decade or so more recent than mine would post something about Gilgamesh & Enkidu. Oh, well. Looks like y'all are stuck with this post instead. When Misterenko showed up in the hatch, Locke was working on a crossword puzzle. The clue was: Enkidu's friend. The answer: Gilgamesh. So, after a perfunctory Google, here is the barebones story (feel free to correct, as I have boiled it all down to silly nonsense -- which seemed like a good idea at 3am ): Gilgamesh was a god-king (i.e. part god, part man). Just not a very good one. His people bitched about him in their prayers and the gods answered by sending Enkidu to earth. Enkidu was a wildman who was just about as strong as Gilgamesh. He was discovered running around the forest by a trapper. The trapper, upon advice from his father, brought a workin' gal from the city to seduce Enkidu. And teach him civilized ways. Once tamed, Enkidu ventured to the city where ol' Gil was up to his wacky ways (first dibs on virgin brides for example). Enkidu was outraged and stood in Gil's way. Gil was counter-outraged and they fought a big fight. Since they were nearly evenly matched, they became bestest buds instead of killing each other. (The stories say Gil won the fight, BTW. But he who owns the writers, owns history, too. ) One day, Gilgamesh has the bright idea of cutting down a forest that belongs to a demon-god. (Huh. There must have been beer involved.) Everybody else (including the gods) knows that this is not wise and they all tell Enkidu that he needs to protect Gil. "You go first," is the gist. Enkidu is not exactly thrilled and has second thoughts. But guys being guys, they take turns egging each other on to go through with it. The demon-god is pissed and goes after them. Eventually, working together, they defeat the demon-god and harvest the wood, which they use to protect and prettify Gil's city. Gil attracts the attention of a goddess. However, he rudely rejects her proposition -- just 'cause her other lovers didn't exactly have long propserous lives after they hooked up with her. She is *not* pleased and arranges to have the Bull of Heaven rampage all over Gil's ass kingdom. However, working together, Gilgamesh and Enkidu defeat it. Which the gods take as a big old insult. It doesn't help that Enkidu takes the opportunity to insult the goddess specifically as well. Maybe to show his support of Gilgamesh or maybe because of battle-endorphins. (Or post-game celebratory beers?) Unfortunately for Enkidu, the gods choose him to pay for their transgressions and he falls mortally ill. At first, Enkidu curses the trapper and workin' gal for taking him out of the forest. But then, he eventually blesses them for introducing him to civilization and his best buddy Gil. And then he dies. Gil goes off the deep end. He's just lost his best friend *and* realizes that he is gonna die someday, too. Eventually, he goes off on an ultimately futile quest for immortality. But that part of the story is Enkidu-less, so I'll just leave it off for now. Here's one of the links that has a summary and assorted historical tidbits about the story of Gilgamesh: Gilgamesh Study GuideSo. This doesn't bode well for Mr. Enkidu Enko. Linda, did I mention Hawaii was still pretty?
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Post by Lola m on Dec 12, 2005 8:24:45 GMT -5
This is such a perfect description of Ana-Lucia's situation during those last minutes of the episode. And all of those aspects of herself are personified by the other characters that surround her. Thank you! And welcome to the S3. Post early and often - I love reading what others think of episodes!
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Post by Lola m on Dec 12, 2005 8:27:34 GMT -5
Hi all! Excellent posting! **nods a lot** I've been enjoying the episodes and the posts here, but my brain is on "muh" mode of late. So I don't have much to add except Hawaii pretty. Oh, and I was hoping that someone whose WorldLit experience was a decade or so more recent than mine would post something about Gilgamesh & Enkidu. Oh, well. Looks like y'all are stuck with this post instead. When Misterenko showed up in the hatch, Locke was working on a crossword puzzle. The clue was: Enkidu's friend. The answer: Gilgamesh. So, after a perfunctory Google, here is the barebones story (feel free to correct, as I have boiled it all down to silly nonsense -- which seemed like a good idea at 3am ): Gilgamesh was a god-king (i.e. part god, part man). Just not a very good one. His people bitched about him in their prayers and the gods answered by sending Enkidu to earth. Enkidu was a wildman who was just about as strong as Gilgamesh. He was discovered running around the forest by a trapper. The trapper, upon advice from his father, brought a workin' gal from the city to seduce Enkidu. And teach him civilized ways. Once tamed, Enkidu ventured to the city where ol' Gil was up to his wacky ways (first dibs on virgin brides for example). Enkidu was outraged and stood in Gil's way. Gil was counter-outraged and they fought a big fight. Since they were nearly evenly matched, they became bestest buds instead of killing each other. (The stories say Gil won the fight, BTW. But he who owns the writers, owns history, too. ) One day, Gilgamesh has the bright idea of cutting down a forest that belongs to a demon-god. (Huh. There must have been beer involved.) Everybody else (including the gods) knows that this is not wise and they all tell Enkidu that he needs to protect Gil. "You go first," is the gist. Enkidu is not exactly thrilled and has second thoughts. But guys being guys, they take turns egging each other on to go through with it. The demon-god is pissed and goes after them. Eventually, working together, they defeat the demon-god and harvest the wood, which they use to protect and prettify Gil's city. Gil attracts the attention of a goddess. However, he rudely rejects her proposition -- just 'cause her other lovers didn't exactly have long propserous lives after they hooked up with her. She is *not* pleased and arranges to have the Bull of Heaven rampage all over Gil's ass kingdom. However, working together, Gilgamesh and Enkidu defeat it. Which the gods take as a big old insult. It doesn't help that Enkidu takes the opportunity to insult the goddess specifically as well. Maybe to show his support of Gilgamesh or maybe because of battle-endorphins. (Or post-game celebratory beers?) Unfortunately for Enkidu, the gods choose him to pay for their transgressions and he falls mortally ill. At first, Enkidu curses the trapper and workin' gal for taking him out of the forest. But then, he eventually blesses them for introducing him to civilization and his best buddy Gil. And then he dies. Gil goes off the deep end. He's just lost his best friend *and* realizes that he is gonna die someday, too. Eventually, he goes off on an ultimately futile quest for immortality. But that part of the story is Enkidu-less, so I'll just leave it off for now. Here's one of the links that has a summary and assorted historical tidbits about the story of Gilgamesh: Gilgamesh Study GuideSo. This doesn't bode well for Mr. Enkidu Enko. Linda, did I mention Hawaii was still pretty? Ooooooooh! **stares at Linda's shiny brain and admires her mad google-fu skillz** That is a very intriguing possible parallel, isn't it?
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Post by fish1941 on Dec 19, 2005 14:50:00 GMT -5
Now, this doesn't make any sense to me. First of all, no one's crime should be excusable, whether we're talking about Ana-Lucia, Sawyer, Kate, Charlie or Sayid. But I get the feeling that you're saying because she was a cop, the fans shouldn't be sympathetic toward Ana-Lucia at all. Is that it? We're not supposed to understand what drove her to kill that guy, but we're supposed to understand Sawyer, Kate or Charlie?
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Post by Lola m on Dec 19, 2005 22:17:51 GMT -5
Now, this doesn't make any sense to me. First of all, no one's crime should be excusable, whether we're talking about Ana-Lucia, Sawyer, Kate, Charlie or Sayid. But I get the feeling that you're saying because she was a cop, the fans shouldn't be sympathetic toward Ana-Lucia at all. Is that it? We're not supposed to understand what drove her to kill that guy, but we're supposed to understand Sawyer, Kate or Charlie? Oh, no! Well, I can only speak for me, but IMHO, no. Definitely feeling sympathetic toward Ana-Lucia. Actually, I feel more sympathetic to her than I do toward, for example, Sawyer. Actually, all the folks that we have seen as killers - Sawyer, Ana-Lucia and Kate - have a similar motive or emotional background to their violence. (Well, as much as we've been shown of Kate's story, but there have been implications.) I'd say that I tend to have a higher initial expectation of Ana-Lucia's behavior in her role as a police officer. Which is, to some extent, unfair - each are human beings and, as such, each are as likely to go off the rails. But it's like . . . I guess somewhere in me, I consciously or unconsciously start with a higher level of respect for Ana-Lucia than I do with, say Sawyer, who we already knew was a criminal/con artist before we knew he killed someone. She starts out higher, so her fall is more . . . dramatic. Even though, really, she doesn't drop as low in my estimation as Sawyer - but I didn't have many expectations from him. Pretty much knew he was bad news right from the get-go. Same with Kate. We are introduced to her as a prisoner, we were just waiting to find out what crime she had supposedly committed. And then we also saw her help rob a bank and shoot somone even before we learned about her step-dad. All of them took a life and that was wrong, but Ana-Lucia has the most justification, in my mind. She killed someone that had actually tried to kill her and that did cause her to lose the baby. Ana-Lucia has inherently the more sympathetic background story. And all of them have the possibility of becoming better people. None of them is beyond hope. Yet. ;D
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Post by fish1941 on Jan 3, 2006 13:23:05 GMT -5
While watching "Collision" for the second time, I had noticed a few interesting things about the episode:
*Ana-Lucia did not have her breakdown until after she had shot Shannon.
*Michael had originally tried to stop Sayid from attacking Ana-Lucia. In the end, Eko ended up wrestling with Sayid.
*Sayid had dropped his gun, during his fight with Eko. Ana-Lucia had picked it up and used it on him.
*Why didn't Michael tell Jack that Ana-Lucia had accidentally shot Shannon?
*Jack seemed very hell-bent upon hunting down the person who had shot Shannon. Locke tried to stop him from going half-cock. In the end, Eko was the one who did it.
*Ana-Lucia first told Sayid that she was a cop. Then she changed her words and admitted that she "used to be" a cop. Does this mean that she is no longer with the LAPD, due to her killing Jason?
*Why did Libby bring up Ana-Lucia's suspicions of Nathan as a mistake, when both she and Cindy had earlier expressed their own suspicions of him before Ana had even finished digging the pit?
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Post by Spaced Out Looney on Jan 7, 2006 13:46:28 GMT -5
Watched Collision when it re-aired over the holidays. Notes that I made, slightly incomprehensible to even myself now, but I'll post them anyway.
Ana-Lucia: "I'm already alone."
meaning of title: different collisions in episode, two groups, Ana-Lucia
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Post by fish1941 on Jan 18, 2006 12:25:10 GMT -5
Eh, could you be a little more clear?
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