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Post by Dalton on Jul 17, 2003 14:19:01 GMT -5
Due to the nature of HTML codng it makes it difficult to show you... Let me try again: in the following command, replace the brackets (ie. [ and ]) with the corresponding lesser-than / greater-than symbols. S'cubie WebsiteCut and paste the above and replace each of hte brackets with the other symbol... that should do you. Vlad Edited By Vlad I at 2/21/2003 5:48:00 AM.
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Post by Dalton on Jul 17, 2003 14:33:59 GMT -5
When someone gets time, would they please explain the meaning of Buffy's line about 'the staff, it's always the staff.' I hate to appear dense, but did I miss another detail somewhere along the way??
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Post by Dalton on Jul 17, 2003 14:34:32 GMT -5
Joshua - I have some definite thoughts on this scene, but am hesitant to share them without having ACTUALLY SEEN the episode yet. Reading it just is not the same.
Vlad is sending the tape and as soon as I get it and see it, I will post some thoughts.
Spring Summers
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Post by Dalton on Jul 17, 2003 14:35:38 GMT -5
#213 on the Episode Board was the posting that most got me riled and was the one I was referring to yesterday. It didn't help that #214 agreed with it. There was a very good response posted by CC S which was #220. My own response was #227. As to the question I posed at the end, no answer.
deborah cohen
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Post by Dalton on Jul 17, 2003 14:36:25 GMT -5
Thank you both for you clarifying my own muddled sense of what the show is intending to convey to us.
I knew from "First Date" that Buffy believed that you can't use evil to fight evil, from her defense to Giles of having Spike's chip removed.
I knew that she wanted to Willow and Spike to accept their power, to embrace their dark side and integrate it into their whole so that they could reach their full potential, and that their souls, their consciences, were the moral compass that would allow them to be in control of their power.
I wasn't quite sure about the wisdom of Buffy's rejection of the Shamans' demon power because it did seem hypocritical. But I too was repelled by the associated imagry as we all were; the bondage, the ugly nature of the black, swirling substance, the forced violation, and your analysis Nan, helped me put all that in perspective.
Spring and Nan, you have blown me away by your abilities to define and so beautifully articulate the underlying themes and connections of the show. Thank you for helping to further my understanding and appreciation of this complex and layered show.
deborah cohen
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Post by Dalton on Jul 17, 2003 14:37:32 GMT -5
Deborah, I do not take anything said here personally because: 1. Most of us are stealing job time when we're on this board (I took off today to babysit my 4 grandchildren b/c daughter needs a blood test, so I'm stealing time from THEM!); 2. You can't see a person's facial expression or hear voice tone, so part of the meaning may be lost; 3. We're all friends here, so I can trust that anyone's meaning, while possibly irritated, is never mean-spirited and 4. Because we've none of us ever met before and would never meet if not for this board. So.
You can have all the fun you want in finding the nit-pickiest continuity errors in the series (and they're out there for you!) I promise I will not comment again--and if I'm really intrigued I'll say something. Please, enjoy (that part meant full-heartedly).
I'm going to sit in the corner now.
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Post by Dalton on Jul 17, 2003 14:38:16 GMT -5
Wow, Robert. I would pay good money to see that discussion. How immensely satisfying that would be. Unfortunately I doubt they'll give give us that kind of comprehensive closure.
Here's a thought. Wait until Season's end and if Joss and the writers haven't had the characters clear the air of all the unresolved issues between them you write the scene yourself in a new fan-fiction.
deborah cohen
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Post by Dalton on Jul 17, 2003 14:38:56 GMT -5
Thanks Diane for understanding, sort of.
Just to clarify though, I wasn't *looking for* nit-picky continuity errors. The duster in the basement error jumped out and bit me and knocked me right out of my happy suspension of disbelief. That's why it bugged me so much.
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Post by Dalton on Jul 17, 2003 14:39:33 GMT -5
I've been reading these entries with interest. The problem seems to be one of choice. The shamans didn't offer the First Slayer a chance to choose. They didn't offer one to Buffy, either. Therefore, Buffy's correct in calling what they did a "violation."
Did she make a mistake in rejecting the power they tried to instill in her? I don't think so. Whether or this "power" was demonic in origin, what form it might take, how it would affect her for good or ill, what its side effects might be or how it was to be used--the shamans didn't bother to describe in any way. They didn't ask.
By taking away the Slayers' right of choice, they conducted a violation in the most personal and intrusive way. No wonder the First Slayer seemed so savage. Such a violation had to have been devastating, and right now a devastated Buffy is the last thing that's needed.
From another perspective, to accept a weapon when you have no idea what it is or how to used or what it's for--idocy! How easily can that weapon can be turned against the user?
I can go on for hours about how this episode reflects on a patriarchal society and its effect on women and on how it continued down through the ages in the form of the Watcher's Council (yes, the Coucil had women members, but they were as patriarchal in their behavior as the men were.) Indeed, I believe that this may be the core of the story. If I can draw enough together, I'll post it to Vlad for the website.
This, I believe, is why the episode disturbed us all so much.
Diane U
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Post by Dalton on Jul 17, 2003 14:40:05 GMT -5
Spring, where did you read the script for "Getting It Done"? I've got about half a dozen shooting script and transcript websites bookmarked and none of them even have "First Date" up let alone "Getting It Done". Would you post a link please? Or if anyone else knows, ditto?
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Post by Dalton on Jul 17, 2003 14:40:38 GMT -5
I believe she read the Wildfeed, if I remeber her earlier post correctly. www.leoffonline.comLee- the staff is undoubtedly refering to the phallis (which suddenly I can't spell), ie. patchriarcal dominance. It's where there power, supposedly, lies.
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Post by Dalton on Jul 17, 2003 14:41:13 GMT -5
I think you are right about this episode commenting negatively on old guard patriarchical instiutions, but in the end, as in the rest of the season, I wonder... I'd like to believe that as Robert said above that in the end it will be about love and friendship and such (I don't think it's corny and it fits well into the series mythos and is apporpirately anti-patriarchal). I agree that that's what one would think, but I don't know how ME is going to pull a 180 on "get it done/it's all about the power" Buffy. Certainly Buffy learned this lesson back in the end of Season 4 with combo Buffy. It seems to me that there is only so far you can go and still have time to pull out.
Considering the magnitude of what they are facing I don't see how everyone is going to get their collective s*** together and fight the freakin first evil. That makes me think that most issues between our core scoobies WON'T be resolved and since a spin-off almost certainly won't have all of them these issues are just going to remain forever. Just not enough time: instead of the three mostly filler SIT eps, we could have this sort of ep four episodes ago, and had a much more developed end game.
I don't want a five second turn around ala Buffy with Dawn at the end of last season, or too little too late with the Willow/Magic=drugs, oh wait, no, it's about Willow and power. I want everyone to resolve everything, and then spend the last few eps fighting the first as the best they can be. As champions. I agree with those that think there is a reson why these people are here at this time. They have a destiny to live up to, and I want them to realize that BEFORE they fight the final fight.
Joshua Adams
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Post by Dalton on Jul 17, 2003 14:42:27 GMT -5
I wonder if any of us ever resolve our issues. Doesn't it mean that a champion "gets it done" despite those issues? Maybe even (sometimes) because of them?
When I was referring to the patriarchy I wasn't just referring to this episode, but to the series as a whole. Patriarchies, by definitition are built and run by men and ususally they are detremental to women. At best they are patronizing, at worst they are a total domination.
In the Buffyverse the patriarchies, one by one, have fallen. Only Buffy remains with her little core of mostly-equal helpers. It's the individuals who choose to band together that prevail, not the institutions that purport to tell us what is good for us. Buffy leads, but she is not the dictator. We see in these few past episodes that when she tries, she alienates her allies. The strength of her group is that sometimes she does NOT lead.
Now, consider the patriarchies in question:
Adam: the conglomerate being built by the even larger patriarchy, The Initiative. Both have fallen. Adam had no choice in his construction, yet he presumed to tell both demons and vampires what to do and what to believe. He considered himself to be superior to everyone and he stood alone. And alone he fell.
The Initiative; Builder of Adam and the Military patriarchy. It's most blatant abuser was Maggie, a woman--but as dictatorial as any man and as convinced that she had the right and the authority to dictate without any discernable moral center.
The Watcher's Council. Centuries of using Slayers as expendable cannon-fodder against evil. Much of the Council's behavior has been nearly as evil as that it sought to destroy. Watchers live in comfort or near luxury, Slayers can live in almost absolute poverty. When you expect someone to put their life on the line, shouldn't some form of acknowledgement follow? Slayers: little more than property. Except that Buffy didn't play along.
I could go on but the kids are screaming. Will finish this later.
Diane U
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Post by Dalton on Jul 17, 2003 14:42:56 GMT -5
deb- I didn't read a full transcript. I read the wildfeed as Joshua mentioned, and I read the excerpts over at Tabula Rasa - they do a "Spike feed" that has the dialogue, but only for Spike scenes. So together, I got a fairly good idea of the episode, but still feel like I am participating half-blind in the discussion.
AND, my UPN is still out!! FOX went out too. If it isn't back by this coming Tues, I may try to see what I can remember about exorcism rituals from my old Catholic schoolgirl days.
It just drives me nutty because we have so few eps left especially. I hate missing any.
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Post by Dalton on Jul 17, 2003 14:43:27 GMT -5
Diane, come out of that corner IMMEDIATELY! Right now! I think in some cases we're arguing with ghosts--like Conversations with Dead People: the ghosts of the occasionally ignorant and frequently dismissive posters who sometimes pop up on the ep boards. We are not like that. We accept each other's interests and share them, to whatever degree we can. Our male members (OUCH! I'll rephrase) Those who post here who are of the masculine persuasion are presumably less than interested in our imaginary experiments with measuring tapes; some here like other characters better than Spike. And despite some early crabbiness from some corners, we don't whine if nobody comments on our ideas right away or at all. Nobody EVER gets to go off in a corner; instead, Spring (or some neutral party) will assign them a penance, as Spring did me, for my gleefully mean-spirited huzzah re Deborah and the Grave Matter of the Duster.
No corners! Come and play!
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