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Post by Dalton on Jul 17, 2003 13:59:15 GMT -5
The consistent message is, I think: Know who you are. Know what you can and can't change. Know what your strengths and weaknesses are. Accept who you are. Embrace who you are - have faith and confidence(not arrogance, mind you) in yourself. And then and only then can you harness your power optimally, then and only then do YOU control your power.
This does include Spike accepting rather than denying the demon within him - his fear of his demon was crippling him. It does include Willow accepting the power that is now a part of her. It does include Xander understanding that he will never have superpowers, but doesn't need them to be essential (instead of constantly feeling like he's not as good).
It does include Buffy accepting her darkside (symbolized by both Faith & Spike). She has to know and accept ALL of herself, and she is on her way.
It does not include Buffy allowing the kind of violation that was proposed.
Spring Summers
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Post by Dalton on Jul 17, 2003 13:59:45 GMT -5
Please lay out for me again the way to make a blue link in our intro. Then I can move the board to the top again.
Thanks!
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Post by Dalton on Jul 17, 2003 14:00:19 GMT -5
I agree, you're right, Ellie: there's a meaningful distinction to be made between being enraged and being outraged, and it does have to do with the possibility of control in practical terms, whether or not it's implicit in the dictionary definition or not. That's how the words are used.
However, I was only flashing on a painstaking definition followed by "Or not." The *or not* was what threw me. It's sort of like the all-purpose *whatever.* Your explanation makes excellent sense...the more so inasmuch as you didn't end it with *Or not." (grin)
Nan Dibble
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Post by Dalton on Jul 17, 2003 14:01:02 GMT -5
If anyone wants a prime example of what led to the "ATS/JM" threads and ultimately the formation of the S'Cubies, check out posts #213 and #214 (page 11) on the Episodes' board for "Get it Done: Champion". *cold chill*
On the bright side, I'm glad it happened... out of the ashes, and all that. :-)
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Post by Dalton on Jul 17, 2003 14:01:39 GMT -5
Vlad said, "But for those of you that have been to the board, have you noticed a general nastiness? Not just a dislike for the episode (Which I think is unwarranted) but the whole way in which it was done. "
Do you suppose that all the people posting on the episode board are actually suffering from the same depression we are, but haven't analyzed it consciously yet? Maybe that accounts for the environment appearing on the episode board. I admit I no longer read it. I read about 100 posts on "The Killer in Me" and not one had anything to say about Spike or any aspect of the episode I found interesting. So I bailed.
Alexandra K.
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Post by Dalton on Jul 17, 2003 14:02:27 GMT -5
Vlad: "But for those of you that have been to the board, have you noticed a general nastiness? Not just a dislike for the episode (Which I think is unwarranted) but the whole way in which it was done."
Have we NOTICED??? Dear man... one of us did more than just than NOTICE this several weeks ago - she DID something about it! That's why we're HERE!!
That's why Alexandra began the "All Things Spike/James Marters" thread(s) back in the middle of the "Conversations with Dead People" Episode board nastiness that began, most notably, against our own Nan Dibble! That was was ended up being the "Spark" of the S'Cubies!!
Yeah - go back and read through that "CWDP" ep board if you dare; if your blood pressure can stand it!
But yes, definitely! That WAS nice of Spring to acknowledge your friendship on the Ep board.
Miss Pamela
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Post by Dalton on Jul 17, 2003 14:03:05 GMT -5
Alexandra - the folks on the Episodes boards may indeed be suffering from the same depression we are and, unlike us, just haven't realized it yet. But we know all too well that the nastiness has been one unpleasant characteristic of those boards for quite awhile now.
So I think it's more than just depression over there - I'd say there's more ego, immaturity, and childishness in the mix. I mean, WE'RE depressed but we remain civil and mature while still open to discussions filled with silliness and child-like fun (as opposed to "childish").
Like I've said in some posts I've just made: we noticed - YOU did something about it, for which we're all grateful! In fact, I think you should "officially" be recognized as the FOUNDER of the S'Cubies!!
Miss Pamela
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Post by Dalton on Jul 17, 2003 14:03:50 GMT -5
Ah yes, it's all so clear now. And no, I am not being sarcastic. But about that last bit:
While my gut reaction to the shaman's ritual is great discomfort (and with the role men of power and the Watcher's Council have played in the past on the show, a cynical "of course that's how it happened"), I still feel on some level that maybe Buffy should have accepted that power, albiet on her own terms. The demonic power is already a part of the Slayer bloodline, a part of who she is. Accepting that additional power is a change in degree not of kind. I think the root of the violation is the fact that Buffy and the First Slayer weren't given any choice (the shadow puppet scene has my vote for freakiest Buffy moment). Had Buffy walked up to them, opened a box, and chowed down on some black goo, then I think people would have a much different reaction. I guess my question would be why did the writers decide to depict it in a way where we would see it as a violation? What are they trying to say with that about the Slayer's power?
*In essence I am desprerately pleading with you to take time out from your life to tie in the truth of your reply with what you think about all these Power issues, and make predictions about what Joss and Co. are going to do with all that in the remaining episodes. No pressure.*
Joshua Adams
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Post by Dalton on Jul 17, 2003 14:04:35 GMT -5
Joshua, your request for analysis of the whole shamans/Ancients scene, with how it presents the original Slayer power as an invasion, a violation, by a demonic essential force, is a crucial one, but difficult to respond to coherently at this point, not knowing what slant the series writers are going to take on the consequences of Buffy's refusal.
1. Unequivocally, the Slayer power is presented negatively. It's black, and faceless, and swirly/shapeless, and extremely unpleasant looking. It attempts to physically invade her body. If the writers weren't going for an eww, ick! reaction from the viewers, it's rather peculiar to have rendered it that way as opposed to all the other ways to visualize a transfer of power. It could easily have been a bolt of light, or something neutral-looking to be eaten or drunk, or a sparkly globe (just naming a few possiblities); instead, it's a writhing black opaque serpentine smoke. This is not a good thing. No one would/should want this thing to come into them, regardless of philosophy. Beffy's repulsion was entirely natural...and intended to be shared by the viewer, I must judge.
2. The woman victim is "chained to the earth." I'm still unsure of the meaning of this physical, visual metaphor. But it emphasizes her as an unwilling victim. However Buffy may need to come to terms with her darkness, I cannot believe that this is the way--becoming a willing victim. The ends do not justify the means. I cannot believe that ME intends otherwise, given how it's presented.
3. We are to understand this is an investiture of power performed by old men upon a young girl, without her understanding or her consent. It will make her a weapon for their wielding and lead her to an early death. This cannot be good in a series so dedicated to female empowerment from male hierarchical rule as BtVS is widely recognized as being.
4. It may not have been WISE for Buffy to refuse the power...but it may have been NECESSARY for her to refuse--in the form it was offered. We'd have accepted her somehow (no snickering in the back!) joining with Spike, for instance, as a way of demonstrating the importance of accepting one's whole self, light and dark. But I don't think we're meant to accept this ritual of ugly, chained, victimization of the female.
If we look at the images we were given, rather than thinking about what those images may abstractly represent, those images (shadows) are intended to repel and horrify. And it's never moral to embrace evil in order to fight evil. That only renders one incapable of recognizing what is evil and what is not, for the sake of expediency.
So thinking of alternative ways a virtually identical choice could have been rendered, THIS rendering persuades me that we are intended to judge Buffy was correct in her refusal, even if the immediate results appear to be catastrophic. Unless we are presented with different, more benign images with similar import, I must conclude that Buffy's choice will be validated by events as the tale unfolds.
But so much of this depends on what is subsequently done with this incident in further episodes that at this point, this is only conjecture based on the scene as far as it's now possible to understand it--which understanding is extremely clouded and limited.
I think all we can say at this point is that regardless of philosophy, the images are repellent and ugly, and were MEANT to be so, and therefore Buffy could not have chosen other than as she did.
I hope this helps. I'm still waiting for more evidence before I make, for myself, any more reliable judgment.
Nan Dibble
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Post by Dalton on Jul 17, 2003 14:05:19 GMT -5
You raise an interesting point. Why WOULD Buffy be so intent on bringing out the darker nature of Willow and Spike, while refusing the help that could save them? It lends some credence to the possibility that Buffy may be under the control of the First in some way....at some point she may be triggered and lead the most powerful people with her into the darkness. I don't necessarily want to see that this late in the game, but it would go a long way in explaining her rather rapid mood swings. Sometimes it's Buffy...sometimes it doesn't seem like her at all.
Rob Sorenson
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Post by Dalton on Jul 17, 2003 14:06:13 GMT -5
The strongest Buffy ever became was during the joining spell between the 4 originals. The best of those 4 were everything the Slayer is supposed to be in one package--even more than for which she was originally intended. It's why she's special, even among Slayers...the Gang are ALL special, in different, remarkably synergistic ways (that can't be a real word, but I like it, so I'm leaving it in). For whatever reason the Powers That Be saw fit to put this group together 7 years ago, and it was all leading to this. I'm not advocating that the joining spell be rehashed. I AM advocating that Buffy's many speeches to the entire group are becoming more and more meaningless, and she's responding by being more and more strident and nasty. Here's a thought, Buff. How's about you put the useless SIT's in a safe place in the basement, get the people you can actually depend on to be there for you in the same room together, and tell them that in the end, it will come down to them: Buffy, Willow, Spike, Xander, Dawn, Giles, and Anya (though as far as I'm concerned she can stay in the basement...she'll be useless until she stops whining and bitching). Tell them that the only chance they'll have is to forgive each other for the hurt they've caused over the years. Get all the issues over the last seven years on to the table and put them to bed. Buffy's only as powerful as the Scoobies make her, and our family has to be closer than ever. As corny as this is going to sound, their love and respect for each other will be the edge in the final battle. The First simply doesn't understand THAT power. Plus an episode where the Scoobs break out all the Seasons' 1-6 dirty laundry to clean up would be riveting for longtime fans. If they were to really do this, with no subject off the table for discussion, it could be incredibly intense and liberating entertainment.
Rob Sorenson
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Post by Dalton on Jul 17, 2003 14:06:45 GMT -5
I'm once more in the Land-Without-UPN and it turns out to also be the land of impossible internet access. It's late but I had to catch up.
What immediately struck me the first time I saw Buffy chained by the old men, was the similarity to the movie King Kong (the Faye Raye 1932 version - wonderful movie).
Try this: Buffy is chained in an identical manner to Faye Raye so she can metaphorically be prepared to be offered as a sacrifice, like a succession of brides/Slayers before her have been, to protect the residents of the island/earth.
The Slayer tradition is that they be protectors, but they also end up as sacrifices. Hardly any live to be 18. They're chosen. They fight evil. They die, one after the other, back to the beginning. Until Buffy refuses to die and stay dead. Refuses to be demon fodder. Refuses to be 'prepared' for the sacrifice.Won't play her part.
The balance is disrupted. Evil is pissed. The old men may have been trying to control her behavior by trying to make her more like the first Slayerwith the black stuff. With the power may have come less free will, not just a super Buffy.
Edited By Rusty Goode at 2/21/2003 1:35:00 AM.
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Post by Dalton on Jul 17, 2003 14:07:22 GMT -5
//Someone among my fellow S'cubies once mentioned that when resurrecting Buffy, Willow may have inadvertantly, through the wording of the spell, have reverted the Slayer line back to Buffy. (I can't find that post, but if the person responsible could just summarise their thoughts on this for me I would be thankful.)// I'm pretty sure that was me. I haven't been around much lately... --missed you all muchly!-- this board and the episode board have gotten so popular that it is hard to keep up and keep up with actual life as well. Especially since I do make it a habit to read all posts before responding... I think you basically got my theory, without summarizing necessary, but I will anyway. Buffy died, no longer "THE" slayer, that makes her a human who happens to have superpowers (um, whatever that would be) so Spike's chip doesn't read "demon" and goes off. Then, Willow calls back "The Warrior of the People." Who must be the slayer right? Made by these shamen guys to be the warrior against the demons, I guess. (By the way, though I am spoiler free, the making of the first slayer was described in the comic book Fray, so I don't know if I was thinking about it, but I could have been, because I knew about it). So then, she is not just a human with slayer powers, but The slayer, who is part of the slayer line. And Spike's chip reads that slayer essence, and doesn't go off. (Too bad the chip is gone. I thought it would have been cool to see if my theory was correct from whether it went off from Faith. Wait a minute. No. I am SO glad that chip is gone.) So now there are two active slayer lines, since Faith is still around. And in fact, killing Buffy would do nothing, because her death would still activate a new slayer. "The slayer line has been irrevocably changed." I'll probably be proven wrong, but I like my theory. Julie A
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Post by Dalton on Jul 17, 2003 14:08:15 GMT -5
Spring said: "The consistent message is, I think: Know who you are. Know what you can and can't change. Know what your strengths and weaknesses are. Accept who you are. Embrace who you are - have faith and confidence(not arrogance, mind you) in yourself. And then and only then can you harness your power optimally, then and only then do YOU control your power."
That's an interesting viewpoint, Spring, since I have heard it mentioned more than once that Spike getting his soul and refraining form drinking of human blood is much like an alcoholic recovering. Buffy, more than once referred to it as the "juice." What you basically just said is the Serenity Prayer that all AA members try to follow:
"God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know hte difference."
Many people equate this with a sense of giving up, but in actuality, it's jsut hte opposite. In the course of pushing yourself to understand jsut what you can change, and how you can realistically make those changes, you discover many great and wonderful things about yourself; much like discovering a source of untapped power within yourself. Everyone must discover and accept who they are, but it doesnt mean that you should ever stop trying to achieve. It's internalizing your motivation so that you are truly trying to be the best person you can be, each and every single day, but not destroying yourself because you don't live up to your own ideals.
Have you ever noticed that in general, ME does not glamorize drinking. Usually when someone drinks or is in a drinking situation, bad things happen. From Beer Bad, to the early episode where Buffy (underaged) goes to the party and nearly gets fed to the snake demon. Giles gets turned into a demon in season 4 because he loses control of his drinking with Ethan Raynes.
Lets not overlook Spike's drinking. He definitely drank to ease his "non-soul." And when Buffy joined him, in her desperate times, it did not work out well for her. Since Spike regained his soul he seemingly was trying to stay off hte booze (and quit smoking) to the point htat this was a clue in him being taken over by the first when the habit(s) returned.
Even in the last episode, he and Anya were off to get drunk...and got attacked.
It jsut kind of makes me wonder if either Joss, or someone heavily involved in BtVS doesnt have a clear understanding of problem drinking/ alcoholism.
Vlad I
Edited By Vlad I at 2/21/2003 4:25:00 AM.
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Post by Dalton on Jul 17, 2003 14:09:13 GMT -5
Alex,
Copy the text below EXACTLY into your opening post for the new section:
a href="http://www.geocities.com/scubiefan/index2.htm">S'cubie Website
Then, immediately beofre the a href, place a less-than sign. (This is hte one with the point to the left.) Then immediately following the /a place a greater-than sign. (This is hte one with the point to the right.)
Check your email for another example, if you don't understand this one.
*smile* You'll get it right.. I believe in you *wink*
Vlad
Edited By Vlad I at 2/21/2003 4:52:00 AM.
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