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Post by Rob on Feb 16, 2006 3:29:48 GMT -5
RUN FOR YOUR LIVES! IT'S AN EVIL SLOT MACHINE! Exactly. Seems to suggest that "what happens when you don't push the button" isn't a given, but depends totally on chance - exactly like a slot machine. When you pull the arm, what happens depends on chance. Well, now, that's not too much different from getting on the freeway, is it? I was soooooo disappointed, but not surprised, that the button got pushed. They gotta stop pushing that button. Honestly, I'd rather be blown to smited smithereens, than keep pushing that button. Some sort of motor was whirring to life, there. Still thinking this is some sort of thermal generator experiment gone wrong, which could explain the random illnesses. On the other hand, the system required to keep it at bay seems too convoluted to make any sort of logical sense. Too much jumping through hoops required. So my gut instinct is to agree with you, Spring...but it's full of butterflies. Personally, I'd probably err on the side of caution and keep punching in the numbers until I could somehow learn more about the machine.
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Post by Rob on Feb 16, 2006 4:03:15 GMT -5
I recognized Kate in the photo that the military guy was holding. ;D I'm so proud of myself because I don't usually notice little stuff like that my first time watching an ep. I assume the man was her father, since we saw her visit him in a military office at some point, didn't we? NOW I remember where I've seen him. Yes, that was definitely Kate's stepfather. I clearly remember him telling Kate he didn't have murder in his heart...but he didn't appear to have too many qualms about letting others do the dirty work, did he? The critical difference being the war. If violent conflict is the only option, terrible things have to be done to win. You can't just think your way through it, or sit passively by and hope to be left alone. Sayid does much the same thing in this episode. He has a moral code, just like anyone else...but he's learned to access the dark part of himself when necessary. Admittedly, he was working through his rage over Shannon's death at the same time...but that didn't make him wrong. Rousseau can discern specificity in the whispers of the Others, and Sayid has a well-developed sense of whether someone is lying or not. Balloon Man might not mean anyone harm...but something is being held back (that's my gut talking again...jeez, my gut is noisy tonight). The castaways are all very different people, but there is one personality trait they all share: physical courage. From Hurley to Sayid to everyone in between, they're all willing to put themselves in harm's way when properly motivated. Now, if they could all just get themselves on the same page... Problem is, Jack isn't a true war leader, regardless of his stated intentions. In temperament, he's much more of a Neville Chamberlain than a Winston Churchill...and if this truly IS a war, the latter is required. Whether or not one chose to like everything about Churchill, he was a born war leader...and in war, one can't afford to be squeamish about a kill or be killed situation. You do what must be done to achieve the objective.
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Post by Lola m on Feb 16, 2006 8:21:51 GMT -5
Ah, Locke! You put your finger on it. "To Rousseau, we're all Others". A matter of perspective. **nods nods nods** Ah, betrayed by the American guy - who never needed a translator at all. He needed a torturer - the right torturer. Sayid telling / confessing to Charlie? I'm with you, Charlie - why are you telling him? I know because I feel no guilt? Um. Charlie hasn't forgotten. So Sayid is recruiting him for his army? And another hatch/bunker next week!!! I knew it, I knew it, I knew it! ;D Sayid saying he knows the guy is an "Other" because he feels no guilt . . . to me, this is all about telling us that Sayid thinks that he's got a fully functioning moral compass, despite it all. Further, he doesn't think the connection between his consciousness and his conscience might be faulty from all the times he's had to disconnect it and reconnect it in order to be a torturer (we know he goes back to it). He doesn't think the connection might be experiencing any interference due to the overwhelming anger crackling inside, either. I'm not so sure he's right about all that, and I'm wondering if we'll learn that Henry Gale is telling the truth after all - leading us to conclude that Sayid's guilt-o-meter might need a bit of repair. Someone mentioned the Wizard of Oz and Henry Gale relating to that story. It was the Wizard himself who was in a balloon, right? And the Wizard, what we know about him was that he wasn't what he seemed - once you looked behind the curtain. This could go either way - it could suggest Henry is exactly the harmless Henry he claims to be, and not any great and powerful anything from anywhere that they have imagined he is; it could suggest that Henry is misrepresenting himself. **nods** Even with a link to Wizard of Oz, it doesn't really tell us the truth abuot Henry. Does make me wonder though, if the Others have all these books that they read, no TV or other diversions, so they've been pulling their names and scenarios and so on out of them. I mean, Ethan Rom. Yes, it spells "other man", but it is also darn close to Ethan Frome. Which doesn't really have anything to do with anything, except that I just thought of it when I stared thinking about books. Um.
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Post by Lola m on Feb 16, 2006 8:27:06 GMT -5
did anyone else notice that the previews said coming up on lost....not next week on lost....is next week a repeat or is it a new ep? tonights ep was great...although to me sayid sort of gave up or hadnt got to the "torture" yet...all he did was beat the hell out of the guy.....maybe he didnt get to the "tool stage" before jack got to him. to me it just seemed like he was letting off a whole lot of anger over shannon! And nice connection to the Wiz of Oz...maybe he didnt think sayid would know the story that well...so It proves to me he is an other ...but now what do you do with him? If Jack isnt going to let Sayid torture him....now what ? I wonder if, once Sayid really started breaking down over Shannon, maybe he no longer had enough control to actually follow a torture program? He was so upset that all he could do was whale on the guy? All they can do now is keep the guy locked up and just see what happens, I guess. But as long as he keeps up the innocent guy facade - or as long as he is just an innocent guy - they'll be nothing to see. And the other fronties will start to get angry that they are treating the guy this way. I think the tailies will be all "don't trust him". Interesting how their isolation removes any of the more usual ways you'd have to check out someone's story. 'Course, all the plane survivors have some part of their background that they are not sharing with the group too. I think I read something about next week being a repeat - of the pilot two hour episode maybe?
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Post by Lola m on Feb 16, 2006 8:28:34 GMT -5
I recognized Kate in the photo that the military guy was holding. ;D I'm so proud of myself because I don't usually notice little stuff like that my first time watching an ep. I assume the man was her father, since we saw her visit him in a military office at some point, didn't we? Also, did anyone notice that the Americian soldier who first captures Sayid is the actor who played the rebellious kid in "Weapons of Class Destruction" on VM? The one who was set up by the undercover agent--I'm almost positive that's the same actor. You are soooo quicker than me! I didn't catch that it was Kate at all!
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Post by Lola m on Feb 16, 2006 8:30:32 GMT -5
Okay, totally stating the obvious (especially with the brains on this board ) and rambling now. This episode has really gotten me thinking about having a talent that you're really good at--better than anyone else--but that truly disgusts and horrifies you. To know that you have it in you to torture and kill someone, and to do it well. And as much as it sickened Sayid before, he knew that the fact that it sickened him meant that there was goodness still in him, and that was something he could hold on to. But now . . . he used that talent to release some of his pain and torment over Shannon's death. He found some measure of comfort in it. Once he realizes that, what's it going to do to him? I know it's very likely that this guy really is one of the Others, but still . . . a part of Sayid was beating this man and torturing him for himself--there were aspects of this that had nothing to do with who this guy is. I can't even imagine the level self-loathing Sayid will be feeling once he fully realizes this. Or, I could be making no sense whatsoever. I just felt really sorry for Sayid throughout this ep. It was painful to watch. Also, I really didn't like it when Sawyer smushed the little froggie. I knew it was going to happen, but still . . . . **nods** I know what you mean. I think Sayid sort of knows it already and is covering up in a major way. Even to himself. Because what he was doing in there was not even just his old torture ways. It was him losing control.
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Post by Lola m on Feb 16, 2006 8:33:42 GMT -5
Exactly. Seems to suggest that "what happens when you don't push the button" isn't a given, but depends totally on chance - exactly like a slot machine. When you pull the arm, what happens depends on chance. Well, now, that's not too much different from getting on the freeway, is it? I was soooooo disappointed, but not surprised, that the button got pushed. They gotta stop pushing that button. Honestly, I'd rather be blown to smited smithereens, than keep pushing that button. Some sort of motor was whirring to life, there. Still thinking this is some sort of thermal generator experiment gone wrong, which could explain the random illnesses. On the other hand, the system required to keep it at bay seems too convoluted to make any sort of logical sense. Too much jumping through hoops required. So my gut instinct is to agree with you, Spring...but it's full of butterflies. Personally, I'd probably err on the side of caution and keep punching in the numbers until I could somehow learn more about the machine. Yup - some other machine or something was starting up or going to do something. I'm just perverse enough that once I saw the Egyptian symbols I'd want to see what else was gonna happen. ;D
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Post by Jan on Feb 16, 2006 9:49:18 GMT -5
Okay, totally stating the obvious (especially with the brains on this board ) and rambling now. This episode has really gotten me thinking about having a talent that you're really good at--better than anyone else--but that truly disgusts and horrifies you. To know that you have it in you to torture and kill someone, and to do it well. And as much as it sickened Sayid before, he knew that the fact that it sickened him meant that there was goodness still in him, and that was something he could hold on to. But now . . . he used that talent to release some of his pain and torment over Shannon's death. He found some measure of comfort in it. Once he realizes that, what's it going to do to him? I know it's very likely that this guy really is one of the Others, but still . . . a part of Sayid was beating this man and torturing him for himself--there were aspects of this that had nothing to do with who this guy is. I can't even imagine the level self-loathing Sayid will be feeling once he fully realizes this. Or, I could be making no sense whatsoever. I just felt really sorry for Sayid throughout this ep. It was painful to watch. Also, I really didn't like it when Sawyer smushed the little froggie. I knew it was going to happen, but still . . . . **nods** I know what you mean. I think Sayid sort of knows it already and is covering up in a major way. Even to himself. Because what he was doing in there was not even just his old torture ways. It was him losing control. It WAS him losing control, but I think it was purposeful. Like him telling the guy "My name is Sayid __ and I am a torturer." in that sincere, unemotional way. It's important that the person facing torture be convinced that the person torturing them will do absolutely anything, and is both skilled enough and crazy enough to do that. Henry is lying. What showed him up was the lack of emotion about burying his wife. The man was thinking, not feeling. And you only have to think in that situation if you're trying to come up with something to say. When Sayid starts pressing, or comes up with a new line of questioning, Henry use the delaying tactic of "Why are you asking me about all this." That's a tip-off that a lie is coming. When Sayid puts the pliers on Henry's finger and asks about his wife's death, when Sayid says Henry would know exactly how he buried her--getting increasingly emotional--Henry uses that opportunity to turn the subject to Sayid's loss of Shannon. I think if Sayid were genuinely, completely out of control at this point he would have begun breaking Henry's fingers with the pliers. Yes, he is acting out his grief. But he is also keeping the pliers as a threat--You think this beating is painful, imagine how it will hurt when I actually use the pliers. And the expression on Henry's face, looking at Sayid as Jack closed the door, said to me that Sayid was right. It was an Ethan Rom kind of look. Truly creepy. I'm not convinced that torture often gets information--I think the reason it worked with his commanding officer was in Sayid's own statement to his CO about the info not even mattering. I loved him for letting Charlie know that he understood, and that he hadn't forgotten Charlie's bravery and ordeal. This might help turn Charlie's "poor me" rage into useful thinking and action. I hate having to wait until March 1 for the next installment. This stuff is more addicting than those movie serials I used to see when I was a kid.
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Post by Anne, Old S'cubie Cat on Feb 16, 2006 11:03:08 GMT -5
Meh.
Shirtless Sayid very pretty. Wet shirtless Sayid... #thud#
Sawyer needs a good swift kick; he's acting like a pouty little boy. He's just one big self-fulfilling prophecy - nobody loves me, everybody hates me, and I'm going to be as bad as possible, just to make sure. Poor froggy. Poor Hurley.
Nobody's talking to each other, they're all forming smaller groups.
Sayid certainly has issues. I'm not convinced one way or the other about Balloon Guy - he could be one of the Others, or he could be telling the truth. Sayid isn't thinking rationally about it right now.
Locke said something sensible - I can't remember the exact words, but it was about everyone being the Others to someone else.
Good for Jack, I've been hoping someone would get fed up with the whole counter routine and let it go, to see what happens.
That sure looked like Egyptian hieroglyphs on the digital counter, to me. If I had any get-up-and-go, I'd go look at the tape and try to translate them, but my get-up-and-go has got up and went this morning.
Too many questions, no answers.
Most importantly, how did they make pre-torturer Sayid look so young and innocent? Naveen Andrews sure can act.
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Post by Spaced Out Looney on Feb 16, 2006 11:03:54 GMT -5
When I rewatched it, I noticed that when the timer ran out, there was whirring and clanking, suggesting that not pushing the button results in more than just wacky Egyptian hieroglyphs.
Also, for the short term purposes of the episode, whether this Henry guy was telling the truth or not is irrelevant, but for the long term it is not. There have been many cases of mistaking another's intentions: Sayid and Rousseau each thinking the other was an Other, the same with the raft folk and the tail enders and the pit o doom, Charlie posing as an other and capturing sun... BUT there is indeed at least one malevolent group out there with the kidnapping and such.
Also, I think somebody should break all the locks to the place.
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Post by fish1941 on Feb 16, 2006 11:04:19 GMT -5
It was okay. To be honest, the most interesting things about this episode was Sayid's flashback, his breakdown over Shannon's death (it's interesting that he has shifted the blame from Ana to the Others) and the whole Jack/Locke confrontation over getting through to Sayid.
Yes, I had recognized Kate's stepdad. Frankly, I think the man comes off as a little too perfect. I'm beginning to understand why Diane had left him.
Locke was peeved that Jack didn't approach him about the army? :blink: Why would he think that?
The whole Sawyer/Hurley hunt over a tree frog was a bore. And Sawyer managed to verify his position on the top of my Sh*theel List.
As for Jack not being a war leader, of course he's not. He has no experience in such a thing. In fact, not one of the Lostaways do . . . including Sayid, who had spent the entire First Gulf War serving as a Communications officer. If a conflict with the Others is on the horizon, they will all have to learn.
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Post by Anne, Old S'cubie Cat on Feb 16, 2006 11:06:43 GMT -5
Hurley is still in the asylum. This is all happening in his mind. AAACCCCKKKKKK!!!!!! ;D Hey, don't give them any more ideas! They've got too many already.
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Post by Spaced Out Looney on Feb 16, 2006 18:01:26 GMT -5
Info on the Egyptian hieroglyphs: kantayra.livejournal.com/296583.htmlNothing like letting other people do the heavy lifting. I forgot to mention how much I liked Hurley and Sawyer's "if this were a scary movie..." conversation. Also, I remembered this morning about how in all the studies of humans in isolated confined environments, things (mood, immunity, interpersonal dynamics, weight loss, sleeping habits, etc) pretty consistently were the lowest during the 3rd quarter of the inhabitants' experience/exposure/stay, no matter how long the duration. It's called the 3rd Quarter Effect. Of course, this precludes that the inhabitants know when they will leave the isolated, confined environment, which our group here doesn't, but it might still come into play. Haven't found any information yet about what happens when you *don't* know the duration. All the signs of everyone becoming unhinged last night made me think of that. Er, that the worst is yet to come, I guess, provided the story gets a chance to be told properly. Also, now that I'm thinking about it, this "push the button" task reminds me of the kind of thing that they put in isolated, confined environment simulations. The difference being, in that case, the buttons not actually hooked up to something, and I think in the hatch, it is.
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Post by Invisible Anne on Feb 16, 2006 18:41:55 GMT -5
Info on the Egyptian hieroglyphs: kantayra.livejournal.com/296583.htmlNothing like letting other people do the heavy lifting. I forgot to mention how much I liked Hurley and Sawyer's "if this were a scary movie..." conversation. Also, I remembered this morning about how in all the studies of humans in isolated confined environments, things (mood, immunity, interpersonal dynamics, weight loss, sleeping habits, etc) pretty consistently were the lowest during the 3rd quarter of the inhabitants' experience/exposure/stay, no matter how long the duration. It's called the 3rd Quarter Effect. Of course, this precludes that the inhabitants know when they will leave the isolated, confined environment, which our group here doesn't, but it might still come into play. Haven't found any information yet about what happens when you *don't* know the duration. All the signs of everyone becoming unhinged last night made me think of that. Er, that the worst is yet to come, I guess, provided the story gets a chance to be told properly. Also, now that I'm thinking about it, this "push the button" task reminds me of the kind of thing that they put in isolated, confined environment simulations. The difference being, in that case, the buttons not actually hooked up to something, and I think in the hatch, it is. So, the hieroglyphs could be interpreted as "Congratulations, you're dead"? Thanks, Liz!
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Post by Rob on Feb 17, 2006 3:10:33 GMT -5
As for Jack not being a war leader, of course he's not. He has no experience in such a thing. In fact, not one of the Lostaways do . . . including Sayid, who had spent the entire First Gulf War serving as a Communications officer. If a conflict with the Others is on the horizon, they will all have to learn. Agreed. I was speaking more along the lines of aptitude, rather than experience.
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